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Anchored Putters Rules Change (Effective January 1, 2016) - Page 39

post #685 of 1852
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post

The Casey Martin golf cart case set the precedent.  It would be a stretch for a golfer like Keegan Bradley to win in such a case but Carl Peterson might be able to.  

 

No it didn't. The Casey Martin case got up specifically because whether or not he walked was considered separate to the playing of the game of golf. You're not trying to say that putting is not part of the game of golf are you?

post #686 of 1852
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post

The Casey Martin golf cart case set the precedent.  

 

Very distinct difference there.

 

I thought the PGA announcement was supposed to come early this week?  Any word on if it's still coming soon?

post #687 of 1852
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post

That's a tougher question given it's believed the R&A is the catalyst for the ban.  I'm guessing the USGA and R&A meet to discuss the potential issues with ending the unification of the Rules of Golf. 

 

If the USGA can convince the R&A that they will seriously push the ban for 2020 and garner support for it, the R&A might consider following the USGA.  Another alternative is for the R&A to provide exemptions to existing Tour Pro's that use an anchored putting stroke and make the stroke illegal for everyone else in tournaments outside the United States. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordan View Post

 

While the R&A and the rest of the world ban the anchored stroke? Or is the rest of the world going to toe the line with the PGA Tour too?

 

Golf is a game played around the world to the same rules.  Professionals mix and match in all of the Tours, and it is not even a possibility that one Tour would adopt a different set of rules from all of the others.  Their own members would be more upset over that sort of dichotomy than they would be about the anchored stroke issue.  Say that one day Bradley is high enough in the world rankings that he's offered an appearance fee for playing in Dubai for instance, but only if he plays by European rules - no anchoring.  Is he going to pass up 2 or 3 million dollars guaranteed on a  principle?  I doubt it.  And if he'd do it for money then he loses his credibility in any such dispute.  Or what if the rest of the world just stops making such invitations because of the split.  A lot of PGA Tour players may lose those opportunities for a guaranteed payday.

 

However it resolves itself, it will be all or none.  I'll be quite disappointed if the RB's allow themselves to be blackmailed. 

post #688 of 1852
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post

The Casey Martin golf cart case set the precedent.  It would be a stretch for a golfer like Keegan Bradley to win in such a case but Carl Peterson might be able to.  Regardless of who wins, the legal battle will be messy and not good for the sport. 

That's not even close to accurate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

However it resolves itself, it will be all or none.  I'll be quite disappointed if the RB's allow themselves to be blackmailed. 

Ditto.

And I still say 2016 is far enough away.
post #689 of 1852
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stretch View Post

 

World's longest-gestating seed. These methods have been available to golfers for decades -- at least -- with only (you note yourself) a tiny niche uptake. But by golly we better prohibit them right now or everybody will surely be using them tomorrow! Come on. Most people don't, and will never, putt with an anchored putter. For the same reason that most people don't, and will never, putt left hand low. It looks odd, it feels odd and, in most cases, it simply won't help you make more putts.

 

Almost certainly, if anchoring became the method of choice for successful pro golfers, more and more amateurs would switch to long putters.  It would take a while for various reasons (most golfers being rather conservative) but anchoring would become much more prevalent than it is now at all levels of the game.  I am one who believes that this would be a detriment to the game, which should involve holding a club freely by the hands and making a small ball go roughly where intended.

 

As to "feels odd", the entire game of golf felt odd to me when I was learning (and still does when I try to improve .....).  If things don't "feel odd" when you're trying to change your game you've got no hope of progress. 

post #690 of 1852

Agreed, after re-reading the decision I misunderstood the grounds that Casey Martin was granted an exception and stand corrected.  I knew I should have reviewed the decision before posting that instead of going from memory.  d2_doh.gif

 

I still believe Carl Peterson can find a lawyer that would take his case on the basis of the USGA review in 1989 and the fact until the anchored putter ban he was able to compete as a professional golfer.  It's a stretch, but still makes for a messy court case and bad press for the USGA.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas View Post

That's not even close to accurate.
Ditto.
post #691 of 1852
Thread Starter 

Interesting comments from Steve Stricker, also a PGA Tour policy board member, revealed some key points from Monday's board discussion over the anchoring ban and possible tour opposition to the rule change proposed by the governing bodies.

Quote:

STEVE STRICKER:  It's not surprising, I guess, because of all the things that players have gotten to learn about since this has come about.  I was the same way; I was for the ban to start with, and my decision or my feeling is swayed a little bit, also.

I think the timing of it is poor.  We're at a point in time in the game of golf that we're trying to keep players, lure players into playing the game, and we all feel‑‑ a majority of the players feel that it only puts a negative spin on that, maybe detracts the local guy, the club member, the public player, whoever, from playing at times.

And this rule has been good for 30 years or so, so yeah, I guess the more information that we've received, I think it's swayed a lot of the players' opinions. 

And to your second question, I can see us adopting‑‑ I don't know if that's going to happen.  Don't even know if the USGA is going to go ahead with the rule change.  But I can see the TOUR adopting the rule saying that it's okay for players to use a long putter.  And we have probably a couple other rules out here on our hard card that are different from USGA rules, too, and this wouldn't be any different, I guess.

Q.  Thirdly, one last thing on the anchoring thing, when you speak of the oddities and kind of the choppiness of it, what about the idea that someone like Webb Simpson could play the PGA TOUR and then go back to the U.S. Open that he's won and not use it? 

STEVE STRICKER:  Yeah, that is a concern, right.  That is a concern for all of us, that if the USGA goes ahead with the rule, what happens to those events, and what are we going to do?  Are we going to change that rule?  I mean, there's really no indication from our TOUR or Tim on what we're going to do yet.  I mean, I know where the majority of the players stand, it sounds like, from yesterday's call.  And I know that they're drafting up a letter to send to the USGA and the R&A to kind of voice our position as a TOUR.  But after that we still don't know where it's going to lead us to, and it's going to be interesting. 

But that is one of the possibilities of being able to anchor out here on TOUR, I guess, and then go to a major championship and not be able to anchor, which would be pretty weird.  And for those players to try to make that change is going to be pretty tough on them.

 

Tiger and Phil comments from this Rick Reilly article .  Tiger seems more neutral to the whole thing than before.  Obviously this is only one quote.

 

Quote:
Q.  Would you be disappointed if the TOUR decided to go against the USGA? TIGER WOODS:  Well, I understand if we go either way.  We put in local rules every week, and this may or may not be a local rule, but we'll see what happens.

 

 

Phil:

Quote:

"If we start to play the game with a completely different set of rules -- using balls that don't go as far, grooves that spin less, and putters that aren't as efficient -- why would people come out and watch us?"

 

This one from Kevin Stadler is a bit over the top

Quote:
"I literally can't get it into the hole with a short putter," he says. "The last time I used it [at USC], I averaged 37 putts a round. When I switched, the hole went from looking like a dime to a bucket. I have no idea what I'd do for a living without it."
post #692 of 1852
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chas View Post

Almost certainly, if anchoring became the method of choice for successful pro golfers, more and more amateurs would switch to long putters.  It would take a while for various reasons (most golfers being rather conservative) but anchoring would become much more prevalent than it is now at all levels of the game. 

 

Again, just because you assert this, it doesn't make it true. All of the available historical evidence suggests that anchored putting is a fad, that its popularity moves in cycles and that the great majority of golfers (at all levels) who do try it out end up returning to the conventional method. For us to believe that anchoring is poised break out of that pattern and become the dominant mode of operation, we would need (at minimum) some demonstration that players who do adopt it -- in general -- experience some improvement in their putting. And no such data (or even aggregated anecdotal evidence) has ever been produced, to my knowledge . 

post #693 of 1852
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

 

Golf is a game played around the world to the same rules.  Professionals mix and match in all of the Tours, and it is not even a possibility that one Tour would adopt a different set of rules from all of the others.  Their own members would be more upset over that sort of dichotomy than they would be about the anchored stroke issue.  Say that one day Bradley is high enough in the world rankings that he's offered an appearance fee for playing in Dubai for instance, but only if he plays by European rules - no anchoring.  Is he going to pass up 2 or 3 million dollars guaranteed on a  principle?  I doubt it.  And if he'd do it for money then he loses his credibility in any such dispute.  Or what if the rest of the world just stops making such invitations because of the split.  A lot of PGA Tour players may lose those opportunities for a guaranteed payday.

 

However it resolves itself, it will be all or none.  I'll be quite disappointed if the RB's allow themselves to be blackmailed. 


Again, your statements imply that the European Tour supports the R&A's position.   The PGA Tour has spoken publicly about their position but I have yet to see the European Tour do so.  Thus, it is speculation to assume what the European Tour's position might be.   Perhaps the European Tour supports the ban but since, as you say, a number of them also play the PGA Tour and the European Tour is governed by their players, it is a possibility that they don't.   What then?  

post #694 of 1852

The ET resonded informally very quickly saying they had no issue with the proposed change.

post #695 of 1852
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stretch View Post

 

Again, just because you assert this, it doesn't make it true. All of the available historical evidence suggests that anchored putting is a fad, that its popularity moves in cycles and that the great majority of golfers (at all levels) who do try it out end up returning to the conventional method. For us to believe that anchoring is poised break out of that pattern and become the dominant mode of operation, we would need (at minimum) some demonstration that players who do adopt it -- in general -- experience some improvement in their putting. And no such data (or even aggregated anecdotal evidence) has ever been produced, to my knowledge . 

 

I haven't been around golf long enough to know, but when was the last time anchored putting was this popular? Both in the professional game and now down at the local municipal course you see guys anchoring their putter. Has this really happened before?

post #696 of 1852

Is it just me or are the stars waffling on the issue? Could it be OEMs and agents pulling the strings asking for moderate and/or supportive statements from Tour stars so as not to negatively impact their bottom lines because a banning decision would kill a market that barely existed 5 years ago (it is currently @ 15% of Taylor Made's putter sales). What about the guys that have no dog in the fight, what are they saying? Where did all of the PGA Tour "Traditionalists" go? It all seems like the marketing machine has taken over. Hey, if I had a multi-million dollar contract with an OEM, I would do the same thing. It kind of is like Phil's comments on taxes in California, the branding just takes over. It just seems like this is turning into a big dog and pony show. 

post #697 of 1852
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordan View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stretch View Post

 

Again, just because you assert this, it doesn't make it true. All of the available historical evidence suggests that anchored putting is a fad, that its popularity moves in cycles and that the great majority of golfers (at all levels) who do try it out end up returning to the conventional method. For us to believe that anchoring is poised break out of that pattern and become the dominant mode of operation, we would need (at minimum) some demonstration that players who do adopt it -- in general -- experience some improvement in their putting. And no such data (or even aggregated anecdotal evidence) has ever been produced, to my knowledge . 

 

I haven't been around golf long enough to know, but when was the last time anchored putting was this popular? Both in the professional game and now down at the local municipal course you see guys anchoring their putter. Has this really happened before?

 

No.  It has never been more than an oddity until now.  That is in large part due to the fact that such information was not readily available.  If an obscure pro experimented with a long putter and an anchored stroke, most players were never even aware of it.  There was little or no film of golf, and no TV prior to the popularity of golf spurred by Arnold Palmer.  Even then it was slow to gain a real following.  The clubs used were either home made or custom made by a small clubfitter, so it was something that wasn't widely distributed in golf shops.  In the US, the only true golf shops were the pro shops on the courses.  Brand name gear like Titleist or Ram were only available from on course pro shops.  Golf was a different world until the 1980's.  Even when Moody used one to win on the Senior Tour, it was considered an oddity that no self respecting player would consider using.  This is why no warning flags went up for so many years.  It was never seen as anything but a peculiarity, and it wasn't making a big splash on the pro tours.  It was only when the issue became more widespread that it was truly examined and determined to be detrimental to the game, and that is what spurred the current action.  

 

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by TourSpoon View Post

I found this in less than 15 seconds...

 

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golftalkcentral/how-it-all-began-notable-long-putter-moments/

 

August 1989: After nearly two months of debate, the USGA and R&A announce that long putters will continue to be permitted under the Rules of Golf. At the time, USGA executive director David Fay explained, "Putting is a very individualized art form. To inhibit a golfer's individual style would take some of the fun out of the game."

 

I think the USGA blew it in 1968. They banned croquet style putting but ignored Phil Rodgers use of a belly stroke in 1966 when he won twice with the belly. If they could admit they had made a mistake by not addressing this issue (again publicly in 89), they would gain some credibility.  If the PGA Tour, who looks at this issue with a different lens, bucks the system, then the USGA will have a mess on their hands. The USGA are the guardians, but the Tour has to protect its membership and their livelihoods. I have not read every post on this thread but I can see manufacturers not wanting a niche market to dry up either. 

 

As many of you know, I use a belly putter and I have one convert. The last time I played, we were the only 2 people that I saw using a longer putter. I have seen people use them, but it is in no way taking over. If everyone bans the anchor point, then I will just un-anchor. Currently the butt lightly touches my belly, but I have experimented with it not being anchored and it is not much different. I will adapt, but until they tell me I can't then I don't see a problem. I am on the fence about this issue and it will be fun watching how this plays out. If this is the biggest thing going in golf, then we are really in pretty good shape. 

 

 

The lack of concern was as much due to it being a minor oddity at the time.  It was not threatening to change the game in a negative way like it is today.  

 

And now you may be able to find it in 15 minutes, but try going back to 1989 and find that insignificant bit of golf news with no internet and no Google.  

post #698 of 1852
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

The lack of concern was as much due to it being a minor oddity at the time.  It was not threatening to change the game in a negative way like it is today.  

 

And now you may be able to find it in 15 minutes, but try going back to 1989 and find that insignificant bit of golf news with no internet and no Google.  

 

Sorry about that Fourputt, that didn't come off the way I wanted it too. No disrespect meant, and you point is well received. It was never really made to be a big deal for sure before the word google became a verb. 

post #699 of 1852
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post

I still believe Carl Peterson can find a lawyer that would take his case on the basis of the USGA review in 1989 and the fact until the anchored putter ban he was able to compete as a professional golfer.  It's a stretch, but still makes for a messy court case and bad press for the USGA.

 

I don't. Sports change their rules. We just had grooves rules changed. The stymie rule was in place, then not. Etc. I think you're wrong and there's no real grounds for a court case. It's an arbitrary rule. Heck, the Casey Martin case could be used to share why any lawsuit should immediately be thrown OUT of court.

 

Please stop top-posting, newtogolf. It messes with the flow.

post #700 of 1852
Quote:
Originally Posted by TourSpoon View Post

Is it just me or are the stars waffling on the issue? Could it be OEMs and agents pulling the strings asking for moderate and/or supportive statements from Tour stars so as not to negatively impact their bottom lines because a banning decision would kill a market that barely existed 5 years ago (it is currently @ 15% of Taylor Made's putter sales). What about the guys that have no dog in the fight, what are they saying? Where did all of the PGA Tour "Traditionalists" go? It all seems like the marketing machine has taken over. Hey, if I had a multi-million dollar contract with an OEM, I would do the same thing. It kind of is like Phil's comments on taxes in California, the branding just takes over. It just seems like this is turning into a big dog and pony show. 

 

I'm beginning to get the same feeling.  There appears to be a lot of posturing going on behind the scenes that has absolutely nothing to do with how the game actually should be played.  It seems at least possible that the governing bodies may end up selling the game out and going against it's best interests.

 

On another note, how many "local guys" do you know that would stop playing golf if they couldn't anchor their putter?  It seems like some of these pros are turning into politicians that are using the talking points that their lobbyists are urging them to.  Otherwise, I have no idea what the hell would give Steve Stricker that impression.

 

The only local guys I've seen use a long putter with an anchored stroke (2-3 people), all had a 2nd putter and appeared to either be practicing with the long putter or at least not putting it into play in every round.

post #701 of 1852
Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post

I'm beginning to get the same feeling.  There appears to be a lot of posturing going on behind the scenes that has absolutely nothing to do with how the game actually should be played.  It seems at least possible that the governing bodies may end up selling the game out and going against it's best interests.

On another note, how many "local guys" do you know that would stop playing golf if they couldn't anchor their putter?  It seems like some of these pros are turning into politicians that are using the talking points that their lobbyists are urging them to.  Otherwise, I have no idea what the hell would give Steve Stricker that impression.

The only local guys I've seen use a long putter with an anchored stroke (2-3 people), all had a 2nd putter and appeared to either be practicing with the long putter or at least not putting it into play in every round.
maybe its just my club, but I have only seen 1 person anchor his putter at my course. Another guy has a long putter but doesnt anchor it. I have not seen very many people on the gcatour use them. The few that I have talked to didn't seem to mind all that much.

This reminds me of the aluminum bat change at the college level and down. It was more for safety issue, but still the game has changed and everyone has adapted just fine. I know its not really apples to apples but either way golfers will adjust if they have to.
post #702 of 1852
Quote:

Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by TourSpoon View Post

Is it just me or are the stars waffling on the issue? Could it be OEMs and agents pulling the strings asking for moderate and/or supportive statements from Tour stars so as not to negatively impact their bottom lines because a banning decision would kill a market that barely existed 5 years ago (it is currently @ 15% of Taylor Made's putter sales). What about the guys that have no dog in the fight, what are they saying? Where did all of the PGA Tour "Traditionalists" go? It all seems like the marketing machine has taken over. Hey, if I had a multi-million dollar contract with an OEM, I would do the same thing. It kind of is like Phil's comments on taxes in California, the branding just takes over. It just seems like this is turning into a big dog and pony show. 

 

I'm beginning to get the same feeling.  There appears to be a lot of posturing going on behind the scenes that has absolutely nothing to do with how the game actually should be played.  It seems at least possible that the governing bodies may end up selling the game out and going against it's best interests.

 

On another note, how many "local guys" do you know that would stop playing golf if they couldn't anchor their putter?  It seems like some of these pros are turning into politicians that are using the talking points that their lobbyists are urging them to.  Otherwise, I have no idea what the hell would give Steve Stricker that impression.

 

The only local guys I've seen use a long putter with an anchored stroke (2-3 people), all had a 2nd putter and appeared to either be practicing with the long putter or at least not putting it into play in every round.

 

The politicians using talking points provided by their lobbyists is a great analogy. "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain"! 

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