Anchored Putters Rules Change - Page 53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt 

And believe it or not, some of those types still return scores for handicap.  Doesn't bother me because they can't generally play to that handicap in a competition, so that's their problem, not mine.  I'm sure that if this rule goes through, some will ignore it just like they ignore most of the rules.  I don't really care about those people because I'll never have to compete with them.  If they ever do compete, then they will be playing by the rules, to their disadvantage.

As an avid league bowler, I could never understand this part of golf.  But I'd see it frequently on golf courses.  It made me feel like golfers weren't nearly as smart as bowlers, because you would NEVER see a bowler posting a score for his handicap calculation that was better than he actually played.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TourSpoon 

So let me throw this out for discussion. 

 

Did the PGA Tour come out with it's feedback to somehow set up a rules modification for the Champion's Tour? How does this Tour play into the current state of affairs? 

I know a lot of you guys must have blocked me but surely someone has a thought...(and don't call me Shirley). 

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave67az 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt 

And believe it or not, some of those types still return scores for handicap.  Doesn't bother me because they can't generally play to that handicap in a competition, so that's their problem, not mine.  I'm sure that if this rule goes through, some will ignore it just like they ignore most of the rules.  I don't really care about those people because I'll never have to compete with them.  If they ever do compete, then they will be playing by the rules, to their disadvantage.

 

As an avid league bowler, I could never understand this part of golf.  But I'd see it frequently on golf courses.  It made me feel like golfers weren't nearly as smart as bowlers, because you would NEVER see a bowler posting a score for his handicap calculation that was better than he actually played.

My experience with a bowling league is that only competition scores were used in handicap anyway.  And these days with the electronic scoring, I'm not sure how you would pad your score anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TourSpoon 

Quote:

Originally Posted by TourSpoon 

So let me throw this out for discussion. 

 

Did the PGA Tour come out with it's feedback to somehow set up a rules modification for the Champion's Tour? How does this Tour play into the current state of affairs? 

 

I know a lot of you guys must have blocked me but surely someone has a thought...(and don't call me Shirley). 

I don't see them as being separate from the PGA Tour line.  If the ban goes through, they will probably have to adapt too.  Unless the rule is written with an exception allowing some sort of local rule, they won't have a choice if they want to play by the rules.  

I'm probably not a good barometer for it though, because I couldn't care less about the Champions tour.  I see it as not much different from any exhibition sports.  Entertaining for some, but not for me.  When it's time to retire, then retire.  If you are still good enough, then play a few regular events like Freddy and others have done.  I love seeing Tom Watson still play competitive rounds in the Open, but watching a senior tour event is just not for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TourSpoon 

So let me throw this out for discussion. 

 

Did the PGA Tour come out with it's feedback to somehow set up a rules modification for the Champion's Tour? How does this Tour play into the current state of affairs? 

An exemption in the rules for players over 50, or just guys on the Champions Tour? Hey, I like it! Everyone else can't anchor, but the old guys can. I mean really and truly its the old guys who need it anyway, their nerves are shot to hell. And I would only have to go back to the short putter for 5 years. This is awesome! Let me write a letter!

LOL this is NEVER going to happen but a guy can dream right?

Back on the subject of grandfathering, yes they could do it.  No, it wouldn't be difficult (much less "impossible").  We're not talking about grandfathering everyone in the world.  We're talking about pros on the Tours.

As I said, I doubt they would do it, but I also don't think their reason has anything to do with logistics.  It's not freakin' rocket science people.  There are lots of laws on the books with grandfather clauses (tons in the public safety arena) so it's not like there's any need to re-invent the wheel.  I looked at a bunch of the questions you guys were bringing up and I had to laugh.  "What if a guy who is grandfathered accidentally taps in without anchoring?"  Seriously?

Grandfathering in a prohibitive rule simply means the prohibition doesn't apply to those who are grandfathered.  It doesn't mean they're compelled to do anything.  It simply means they retain their freedom to choose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave67az 

Back on the subject of grandfathering, yes they could do it.  No, it wouldn't be difficult (much less "impossible").  We're not talking about grandfathering everyone in the world.  We're talking about pros on the Tours.

 

 

The Rules of Golf are for everyone.  Maybe you are only talking pros, but I don't see how you make that separation.  That's what most of this debate is about, keeping everyone under the same rules umbrella.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt 

 

So basically, grandfathering applies to 5 or 6 people and not the other millions of players around the world.  Just plain silly.  If the ban becomes universal and those few pro players dropped off the radar, nobody would even notice it.  Forget it... ain't gonna happen.   It's all or nothing.

Yes.  As I said (please read my earlier posts), I am NOT arguing for grandfathering in the sense that I'd wish to see it happen myself.  But there is a clear rationale for it, one that applies to current PGA Tour golfers who anchor but does not apply to you or me or the "millions of others around the world" who have not played on the tour as a career.  Any grandfathering would require a definition of the subset of players who are grandfathered - obviously.  

I'm agreeing with you that I don't think it will happen or that it should happen.  It would be a political decision, made by USGA to appease tour players who currently anchor.  I doubt that USGA wish to make a precedent of such a grandfathered rule (or has it happened before?).  But then again, their foolishness in allowing anchored putting to go on for so long among a subset of tour players, having repeatedly declared it legal before, and then changing their muinds is the reason why there IS an argument for grandfathering.  Personally, I say let there be one set of rules for all to play by (no exceptions, it's a slipper slope as a principle) and let USGA staff publicly acknowledge their failure to address the matter in a timely manner.  The wearing of hair shirts on the course for a period of a year would do nicely ......

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt 

  I see it as not much different from any exhibition sports.  Entertaining for some, but not for me. 

Good point as the name Champion's Tour is basically a tournament of former champions. It is the nostalgia tour. There are not too many former non-champions who can make it out there partially because of design. No one wants to see Joe Schmo, they want Freddy, Bernhard, Rocco, Pavin, Cook and company. Regardless, I still think they would have to comply. Bernhard can go back to his claw. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by meenman 


Honestly, the Champions Tour is marginally more important than the LPGA in most peoples eyes. They can do what they want and nobody will notice.

Agreed, but I would point out that most of the USGA membership would likely be keyed in to the nostalgia tour given their demographics, but in the end probably not a factor.  As far as the LPGA, I would say they have the least vested in the argument because it is even more rare to see anchoring there. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave67az 

Grandfathering in a prohibitive rule simply means the prohibition doesn't apply to those who are grandfathered.  It doesn't mean they're compelled to do anything.  It simply means they retain their freedom to choose.

Thank you dave67.  I must say I'm a bit surprised that anyone actively in this discussion would not understand what grandfathering actually means.  But there you go. 

I'm sure you understand that I'm playing "devil's advocate" here.  hmmm, can I be sure that people know what that means?

We are in the realm of politics here, PGA Tour vs. USGA/R&A.  Politics is never pretty, even in golf ......

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chas 

Thank you dave67.  I must say I'm a bit surprised that anyone actively in this discussion would not understand what grandfathering actually means.  But there you go. 

 

I'm sure you understand that I'm playing "devil's advocate" here.  hmmm, can I be sure that people know what that means?

 

We are in the realm of politics here, PGA Tour vs. USGA/R&A.  Politics is never pretty, even in golf ......

I don't think it's that they don't understand.  I think many are ticked off at the whole anchoring ban and they're letting their emotions speak instead of logic.

You and I both are on the same page in that neither of us is a proponent of grandfathering, but it's not difficult to come up with a plan on how to accomplish it.  I just have a problem with people who come up with stupid reasons why it can't be done as though they've never seen a classic car without seat belts, or a building with asbestos-laden tile in it.

Could they grandfather just the pros on the Tour?  Yeah.  They could easily draft an agreement with the Tour to delay the ban for 5 years for current anchoring players on the Tour.  To say that the Tour wouldn't be able to keep track of its players is asinine, and makes it sound like I can just walk onto a PGA Tourney and play without them realizing I wasn't on the Tour.

Would it be a dreaded bifurcation?  Yeah...for a few years.  Would it open a wormhole that would destroy the world?  What...you mean like if they allowed golf carts at most but not all of the events on, say, the Champions Tour?  Or like letting pros use only wooden bats while college players get to use aluminum?  Or like...nevermind, you get the point (though some still will claim they don't understand just to annoy us).

I still don't see it happening.  I don't see the USGA and R&A letting the PGA Tour (or PGA of America) push them around.  Bad precedent, I would think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave67az 

As an avid league bowler, I could never understand this part of golf.  But I'd see it frequently on golf courses.  It made me feel like golfers weren't nearly as smart as bowlers, because you would NEVER see a bowler posting a score for his handicap calculation that was better than he actually played.

That's an easy one to answer.  Our bowling averages are different league-to-league and only made up of the games in said league, right?  So you could play in 4 leagues at a time, and you have 4 different averages.  You aren't even allowed to bowl for practice/recreation and add that to your average, whether it be good or bad.  It's physically impossible to have a vanity handicap, and it takes a creativity to sandbag.  It's doable if you want to be a jerk, but you at least have to fake it.

In golf, the vast majority of golfers who have a handicap (and 100% of those who don't) never play in formal competitions.  And, you have one magic number that you potentially take pride in, and that changes every single time that you play, whether it be in a tournament, or just for recreation.  And since nobody is watching you, then you have the luxury of writing down whatever you please.  A lot of guys like to tell you they are an 11, just like they also like to believe they are still a 32 waist.

Now, as far as guys who have a vanity handicap AND play in a lot of tournaments ... then I totally agree with you; that's just dumb.  They are not as smart as us bowlers. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave67az 

 

I don't think it's that they don't understand.  I think many are ticked off at the whole anchoring ban and they're letting their emotions speak instead of logic.

 

You and I both are on the same page in that neither of us is a proponent of grandfathering, but it's not difficult to come up with a plan on how to accomplish it.  I just have a problem with people who come up with stupid reasons why it can't be done as though they've never seen a classic car without seat belts, or a building with asbestos-laden tile in it.

 

Could they grandfather just the pros on the Tour?  Yeah.  They could easily draft an agreement with the Tour to delay the ban for 5 years for current anchoring players on the Tour.  To say that the Tour wouldn't be able to keep track of its players is asinine, and makes it sound like I can just walk onto a PGA Tourney and play without them realizing I wasn't on the Tour.

 

Would it be a dreaded bifurcation?  Yeah...for a few years.  Would it open a wormhole that would destroy the world?  What...you mean like if they allowed golf carts at most but not all of the events on, say, the Champions Tour?  Or like letting pros use only wooden bats while college players get to use aluminum?  Or like...nevermind, you get the point (though some still will claim they don't understand just to annoy us).

 

I still don't see it happening.  I don't see the USGA and R&A letting the PGA Tour (or PGA of America) push them around.  Bad precedent, I would think.

+1, expressed better than I could do it.

Let's all of us agree that it will be interesting to follow what happens.  I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, whichever way the ball breaks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad 

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave67az 

As an avid league bowler, I could never understand this part of golf.  But I'd see it frequently on golf courses.  It made me feel like golfers weren't nearly as smart as bowlers, because you would NEVER see a bowler posting a score for his handicap calculation that was better than he actually played.

 

In golf, the vast majority of golfers who have a handicap (and 100% of those who don't) never play in formal competitions.  And, you have one magic number that you potentially take pride in, and that changes every single time that you play, whether it be in a tournament, or just for recreation.  And since nobody is watching you, then you have the luxury of writing down whatever you please.  A lot of guys like to tell you they are an 11, just like they also like to believe they are still a 32 waist.

 

Now, as far as guys who have a vanity handicap AND play in a lot of tournaments ... then I totally agree with you; that's just dumb.  They are not as smart as us bowlers. ;)

I guess this comes down to what you call a "formal competition".  Virtually every player I've ever known who carried an official handicap did so for the purpose of competition.  In my opinion, the tournaments run by the Men's club at your local course are still formal competitions if they are played by the Rules of Golf.  I was in a public course men's club with 250 members for 22 years, and believe me, our tournaments were formal.  Our rules committee published a hard card with approved local rules and conditions of the competition.  We had an active and involved handicap committee.  The mens club was managed by an elected board of directors.  We were organized under the guidelines provided by the USGA and the Colorado Golf Association, but we ran our own competitions without outside involvement.  Were we playing formal competitions?  

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave67az 

Could they grandfather just the pros on the Tour?  Yeah.  They could easily draft an agreement with the Tour to delay the ban for 5 years for current anchoring players on the Tour.  To say that the Tour wouldn't be able to keep track of its players is asinine, and makes it sound like I can just walk onto a PGA Tourney and play without them realizing I wasn't on the Tour.

 

Exactly. It would be as easy as the guys who were allowed to go helmet-less in the NHL. If a guy has his card by date certain, then they are grandfathered to putt either way. Anyone getting a card after that date, including those that lost their card and regained, would be limited to the traditional putting stroke. 

I hope they don't decide to grandfather anyone. Just make a decision and move on. It makes no difference to me even though I currently anchor. I could just as easily unanchor at any time (sure I can, lol).