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Why are you not playing scratch? - Page 8

post #127 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonK88S View Post

Well, for someone with a <10 cap, you would think that your athletic ability is pretty good. I mean its pretty damn hard to get down that low. I'm sure if you put the time and effort into your game and with the right drills and routines you could make it to scratch. I have been playing for a little under a year (about once a week) and I'm a 17. I have played very competitive sports my whole life and I can definitely see the scores improving the more time i spend on my game. As i take it more seriously, I seem to produce a lot better. I think the same goes for anyone who is WILLING to do the right things to get them to being a scratch golfer. Most of it is "how bad do you want it?"

No, I know my limitations and it comes down to hand/eye coordination. When I am playing very well (mostly due to the opportunity to take the time to take lessons and practice) I can go 10-12 holes and not really miss a shot. Then, in the same round, I will go a few holes without ever gettting the ball on the sweet spot. I can play to "scratch" during the course of any round. But I can't do it for 18 holes. I will just hit some fat/thin shots; it's inevitable. And it's not like it is a self-fulfilling prophesy. When I am in the groove, I am focused on every single shot. It just happens. That's me.

post #128 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post

Look fellas...I'm not saying that there isn't talent..what I'm saying is that its not just talent that makes someone "great".  Do you think every great athlete, basketballl player, football player, golfer, baseball player...had the exact same talent level?  No.  Some had to work hard harder than others...practice more, train more, study more.  You can be the most NATURALLY talented person in the world but it doesn't amount to a single win if you don't put in hard work and execute to hone your skills and become better.  Go listen to anyone talk about what made Jordan the best.  They will never say it was because he could jump, or run, or whatever...they will say he worked harder than anyone else.  He didn't ever want to lose...he wanted to beat you at anything and worked harder than you.  Sure he had god-gifted talents and abilities that he carried with him but again..those don't mean a thing without the rest.

 

 

And yeah, I knew people would try to chew on the fundamentals thing.  It was a general statement about the general golfer.  Not to be taken to an extreme about the 40 year old who's had a completely wrong swing his entire life or a 65 year old with no more flexibility(not to knock the 65's who can still swing it.  The 300 yard drive thing was just a number because its such a "thing" on the internet.  What I'm saying is that we could all hit it further, we could all hit it closer, and given that I don't feel that par golf is the most difficult feat in sports...I don't see why someone "average" couldn't be scratch...again..with correct fundamentals.

 

 

GolfingDad has the idea of what I'm saying...shocked that some others are too literal to see it.

The talent was the requisite thing. He could have been very good with dedication and hard work, but he wasn't going to be as good as he was.

 

The thing a lot of people don't understand is that there are multiple skills and swing thoughts that enable one to become an excellent golfer. Some guys are all handsy and have unbelievable quick-twitch muscles. Some guys are all legs and butt, and their hands rarely engage until they are going through the ball. Some guys are all shoulder turn and timing. Watch Phil Mickelson swing and then watch Looie Ooshuizen and you will see what I mean. Two completely different ways to achieve similar results. But the one thing they all have in common is uncommonly good hand/eye coordination. Then they are capable of performing what they intend almost 100% of the time with the added ingredient of dedication and hard work. If you can't get the center of the club face on the ball on a consistent basis, all the rest doesn't matter. 


Edited by phan52 - 11/28/12 at 3:12pm
post #129 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post

No, I know my limitations and it comes down to hand/eye coordination. When I am playing very well (mostly due to the opportunity to take the time to take lessons and practice) I can go 10-12 holes and not really miss a shot. Then, in the same round, I will go a few holes without ever gettting the ball on the sweet spot. I can play to "scratch" during the course of any round. But I can't do it for 18 holes. I will just hit some fat/thin shots; it's inevitable. And it's not like it is a self-fulfilling prophesy. When I am in the groove, I am focused on every single shot. It just happens. That's me.

That is a fairly accurate description of my current game as well.  But I refuse to believe that it's inevitable to stay that way.  I remember hearing Annika Sorenstam once say that her goal when she goes out there sometimes is 18 under par.  Her reasoning:  Because she has birdied every hole on that course before at one time or another ... so why shouldn't she be able to do them all on the same day?

 

Same is true for you and I.  If we're capable of shooting par for 10-12 holes a round on good days, sometimes the first 10, sometimes the last 10, sometimes a scattering, then why shouldn't we be CAPABLE of doing it for 18?  Is it likely right now?  No.  Possible?  Why not?

post #130 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

That is a fairly accurate description of my current game as well.  But I refuse to believe that it's inevitable to stay that way.  I remember hearing Annika Sorenstam once say that her goal when she goes out there sometimes is 18 under par.  Her reasoning:  Because she has birdied every hole on that course before at one time or another ... so why shouldn't she be able to do them all on the same day?

 

Same is true for you and I.  If we're capable of shooting par for 10-12 holes a round on good days, sometimes the first 10, sometimes the last 10, sometimes a scattering, then why shouldn't we be CAPABLE of doing it for 18?  Is it likely right now?  No.  Possible?  Why not?

Because, no matter how hard I work at my game, I will never get the center of the clubface on the ball enough in a round of golf to shoot really low scores. I will always hot some thin and some fat because I can't will myself better hand/eye coordination.

Now, if I reallly took the time, I could definitely hit the ball farther and with more accuracy, which would improve my scoring and lower my handicap to a degree ( I am of the belief that the BEST way to lower your handicap is with the short game, but that's me). But I will never be scratch because I will always miss too large a share of shots.

post #131 of 215

I am.

 

So now what?

post #132 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

I am.

So now what?

So now you're banned from this thread! b2_tongue.gif

(It won't actually let me ban an admin. Crazy, right? Pffft.)
post #133 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

I am.

 

So now what?

Maybe you should stop hoarding all that skill and start sharing it with the rest of us.c2_beer.gif

 

I'm thinking there should be a way whereby we could send you photographs or artistic descriptions of our swings and then you can mail us (or maybe Western Union) some feedback on how we can improve.

 

Or just do as Jamo said and ban yourself from this non-scratch-shootin' thread.

post #134 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post

No, I know my limitations and it comes down to hand/eye coordination. When I am playing very well (mostly due to the opportunity to take the time to take lessons and practice) I can go 10-12 holes and not really miss a shot. Then, in the same round, I will go a few holes without ever gettting the ball on the sweet spot. I can play to "scratch" during the course of any round. But I can't do it for 18 holes. I will just hit some fat/thin shots; it's inevitable. And it's not like it is a self-fulfilling prophesy. When I am in the groove, I am focused on every single shot. It just happens. That's me.

That is a fairly accurate description of my current game as well.  But I refuse to believe that it's inevitable to stay that way.  I remember hearing Annika Sorenstam once say that her goal when she goes out there sometimes is 18 under par.  Her reasoning:  Because she has birdied every hole on that course before at one time or another ... so why shouldn't she be able to do them all on the same day?

 

Same is true for you and I.  If we're capable of shooting par for 10-12 holes a round on good days, sometimes the first 10, sometimes the last 10, sometimes a scattering, then why shouldn't we be CAPABLE of doing it for 18?  Is it likely right now?  No.  Possible?  Why not?

 

I learned years ago that setting unrealistic goals just leads to frustration, and often, to failure.  At your current posted handicap, your goals should be more short term and specific.  Create a goal tree and climb it one branch at a time.  That will tell you more than anything else whether you have the talent to ever be a scratch player.  Don't be disappointed if you never reach the top.  Many more people who set out to climb Mt. Everest never reach the top than those who do.  At least in golf, failure isn't fatal. d2_doh.gif

 

That said, I never approached golf that way.  Golf was recreation, something I did for fun.  Setting goals was a career function, and I had no interest in bringing that into my recreational pastimes.  

post #135 of 215

In regards to talent- i consider talent in golf to be a person, preferably young who,  when provided with minimal tuition seems almost instantly able to recreate what has just been seen and described.

There are also talented learners, those who have the ability to apply themselves well and achieve success. There are talented teachers who reveal what talents people do have and expand on them. Talent is a wide and varied subject for me. So far in life i have found everyone i have got to know has got some kind of talent. Something they are good at even if it's a negative talent like lying or stealing. One of the most important talents in sport is that of the coach. As they are commissioned to unearth and nurture the talents people do have and hopefully help them bring that into sync with their golf game. All to often coaching involves people wanting quick fixes and expecting miracles from coaches. Likewise too many coaches are so focused on their brand or model that a students talent could slip through their fingers and be lost to golfing dogma. Do normal people have a chance at scratch golf yes!! Can they get there with ease, no.

 

 

In short i honestly think anyone who is a good pitcher and putter can get to scratch. 

post #136 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

I learned years ago that setting unrealistic goals just leads to frustration, and often, to failure.  At your current posted handicap, your goals should be more short term and specific.  Create a goal tree and climb it one branch at a time.  That will tell you more than anything else whether you have the talent to ever be a scratch player.  Don't be disappointed if you never reach the top.  Many more people who set out to climb Mt. Everest never reach the top than those who do.

 

That said, I never approached golf that way.  Golf was recreation, something I did for fun.  Setting goals was a career function, and I had no interest in bringing that into my recreational pastimes.  

I learned years ago that setting goals AT ALL can lead to frustration "if you don't reach them, however, if you don't have any goals in life, you can never be dissappointed."  (Peter La Fleur, Dodgeball, 2004)

 

In all seriousness though, don't mistake my believing that I have the ability to become scratch as my current goal.  Actually, I keep meaning to go back and find the thread where I posted my goals for this year - its hard because there are several "goals" threads out there - to see where I stand.  Pretty sure I said I wanted to get to a 5, which is obviously not happening yet.

 

My current goals are more general ... keep practicing, and start competing in more and more tournaments, and the secondary goal to those two is to hopefully keep improving.  (Oh and the primary goal above each of those levels is to have fun ... if I'm not having fun, why am I doing any of it?)

post #137 of 215

I tried. I can't restrict myself from the thread either. :P

post #138 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post

There is nothing stopping anyone on this board from hitting true 300 yard drives if they have the proper mechanics.  The only limit to the game of golf are our own habits, not some mythical "talent level"  Talent is a product of hard work and execution..not something you are born with. 

That's a crock. You cannot teach someone to run fast, you cannot teach someone to jump high, you cannot teach someone to throw a baseball 95mph, and you CANNOT teach someone to hit a golf ball 300 yards unless they were born with the god given talent to do so. You are born with talent and ability, it is genetic. From there it is up to that person to properly develop those natural talents. If you are not born with the genetic ability to do something like hit a golf ball 300 yards you can practice till the cows come home with the best teachers and best equipment and it is not going to happen.

post #139 of 215

I don't even know why coaches and trainers exist...because you're either born with it or you aren't.

post #140 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post

I don't even know why coaches and trainers exist...because you're either born with it or you aren't.

I'll try to explain.....

Because most everyone wants to improve, and with coaching, just about everyone can improve relative to their current ability. BUT there is a finite limit to that improvement based on any number of factors including physiology, talent, and athletic ability.

Now do you understand?
Edited by David in FL - 11/30/12 at 8:48am
post #141 of 215

Actually you can teach people to run fast, jump, throw faster, and hit the ball farther.Are there genetic limits? Sure. But it isn't clear where 300 yard drives are for most people. The average guy supposedly swings 90mph and drives the ball about 210. There is a lot of research suggesting the weight/flexibility training can give most people ~5% increase in swing speed in 12 weeks (a really short period of time. You don't build much muscle in that time frame and it is mainly all neurological). In trained golfers overweight/underweight training has been shown to give about 5-10% increase over 12 weeks. That work gets us half way to the needed 110mph swing speed. Can you get the rest through more of that training (i.e. it takes more than 12 weeks to max out any training), coaching (I am sure everyone has one or two power leaks), or equipment (slightly lower weight & ari resistance)? Who knows. We think of 300 yard drives and 110mph as being really far  and fast. And they are. But if you think of it as the top guys being 370 yards and 130mph (normal driver not long driver), you realize their is still a huge gap between what we are talking about and the limits of human performance.

 

Now figuring out if the average guy can develop the repeatibility of the PGA pro  is the big question and I am not sure what the evidence for that is either way. 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by NM Golf View Post

That's a crock. You cannot teach someone to run fast, you cannot teach someone to jump high, you cannot teach someone to throw a baseball 95mph, and you CANNOT teach someone to hit a golf ball 300 yards unless they were born with the god given talent to do so. You are born with talent and ability, it is genetic. From there it is up to that person to properly develop those natural talents. If you are not born with the genetic ability to do something like hit a golf ball 300 yards you can practice till the cows come home with the best teachers and best equipment and it is not going to happen.

post #142 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post

I don't even know why coaches and trainers exist...because you're either born with it or you aren't.

 

Why do you have to take that attitude.  Nobody has said that.  What has been said is that each of us is genetically imbued with a potential.  That potential is different for each of us and can usually only be reached by working at it, but no amount of work will take one past his inborn potential.  Some may have to work harder than others to reach their top potential, and for anyone to maximize his ability, coaching and instruction is necessary.  The absolute highest my swing speed has ever been recorded at is 108 mph, and I was swinging out of my socks to achieve that.  I know guys who swing that fast with no apparent effort, yet I score as well, and often better, than they do.  There is clearly a difference in talent between us, whether it's skeletal or muscular.  There is a difference in our physiology which no amount of training will overcome.  

 

They may have a natural ability to swing fast and hit the ball a long way, yet no matter how much they practice, they only have so much ability to feel how hard to hit a short pitch, and lag putting is often a complete mystery to them.  I have a talent for touch in the short game that that has always just been there.  Even after a long layoff, I can step right back in and putt like I never stopped.  I honed my short game ability with practice over a period of several years, but the natural ability has always been there once I learned the general principles.  During that time I tried to increase my length too, with only minimal success.  For me, a consistent full swing has always been an elusive target.  I accept that now and rely heavily on my short game when I play.  

post #143 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

I learned years ago that setting goals AT ALL can lead to frustration "if you don't reach them, however, if you don't have any goals in life, you can never be dissappointed."  (Peter La Fleur, Dodgeball, 2004)

 

In all seriousness though, don't mistake my believing that I have the ability to become scratch as my current goal.  Actually, I keep meaning to go back and find the thread where I posted my goals for this year - its hard because there are several "goals" threads out there - to see where I stand.  Pretty sure I said I wanted to get to a 5, which is obviously not happening yet.

 

My current goals are more general ... keep practicing, and start competing in more and more tournaments, and the secondary goal to those two is to hopefully keep improving.  (Oh and the primary goal above each of those levels is to have fun ... if I'm not having fun, why am I doing any of it?)

I'm with you Gd. My main golf goal is to strike the ball well on each and every shot. That's it. I am totally addicted to the senses taking in the feel and perception of a well struck shot. Secondary to that is the hope that if I accomplish this main goal well I may drop my hc some and win some tournaments, etc, etc, but as I get older I find that the goal of hitting well and having fun becomes more and more paramount.

post #144 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

 
I'll try to explain.....
Because most everyone wants to improve, and with coaching, just about everyone can improve relative to their current ability. BUT there is a finite limit to that improvement based on any number of factors including physiology, talent, and athletic ability.
Now do you understand?


It was never a matter of understanding.  The problem here is that I suppose some people look at a scratch golfer and think its an elite level of golf.  I don't.  I don't see anything stopping a relatively healthy person from achieving par golf with proper practice and mechanics. 

 

 

Now do you understand?

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