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Why are you not playing scratch? - Page 11

post #181 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by JediFish View Post

PS... Since scratch is 1%, does that make us the "99 percenters"? Haha

Scratch is .13% not 1%. We are talking 1 out of 1000 not 1 out of 100.
post #182 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by JediFish View Post

Well I'm going to be the optimistic guy. I think you can go from +30 to scratch! All you have to do is talk your friends into letting you keep the scorecard. Then you can shoot whatever you'd like to. a1_smile.gif

In reality though, I do believe single digit caps can be scratch with all of the instruction and new technology as long they have the physical ability to replicate what they're taught and the mental capacity to overcome their bad habits and create a sweet swing. With that said... Good luck to everyone in their pursuit because its always better to have a little luck on your side.

PS... Since scratch is 1%, does that make us the "99 percenters"? Haha

 

Scratch is one tenth of one percent.  Makes us the 99.9 percenters (999 out of 1000).

post #183 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Williamevanl View Post

It's easy to get to a 12 and an 8. While it's not impossible to get to scratch,hardly anyone does it. According to the USGA:

0.13% of golfers that have a handicap on the plus side of scratch. So, that's ~.13% scratch and better. So 1 out of 1000 people that take golf seriously enough to have handicaps are able to get there. Maybe I'm missing something.

I don't know know how else to explain this without sounding patronizing. Think of a histogram, people that get near 0 are extreme outliers. Maybe forget about golf and think height.

The scratch golfer as rare as a person that is 6 foot 9 in.

The % of golfers that are scratch or better is .13% the % of people that are over 6 9 is .1% as well. It's clear to me that people just don't realize how freaking rare scratch is.

Now you have to ask, what % of golfers actually maintain a handicap?! I'll bet it's less than one in 10. It's probably fair to assume that virtually all scratch golfers DO maintain a handicap. That means that fewer than 1 in 10,000 golfers, play at scratch or better. I'll call that pretty elite.....
post #184 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

Now you have to ask, what % of golfers actually maintain a handicap?! I'll bet it's less than one in 10. It's probably fair to assume that virtually all scratch golfers DO maintain a handicap. That means that fewer than 1 in 10,000 golfers, play at scratch or better. I'll call that pretty elite.....

Okay, I get it. It's really hard. That doesn't keep many golfers from trying, though. Good thing for the golf industry. a1_smile.gif

I should check and see how many of the kids from first tee program are scratch by 15 to 18 years old. It's just that some of these kids are so talented. Like 7 year olds making birdie or par on par 3 courses like its nothing...
post #185 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post

Okay, I get it. It's really hard. That doesn't keep many golfers from trying, though. Good thing for the golf industry. a1_smile.gif
I should check and see how many of the kids from first tee program are scratch by 15 to 18 years old. It's just that some of these kids are so talented. Like 7 year olds making birdie or par on par 3 courses like its nothing...

First tee is a great program. They get all my old clubs.......

You're right too. Some of those kids pick it up awfully fast! Damn them! a2_wink.gif
post #186 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

Now you have to ask, what % of golfers actually maintain a handicap?! I'll bet it's less than one in 10. It's probably fair to assume that virtually all scratch golfers DO maintain a handicap. That means that fewer than 1 in 10,000 golfers, play at scratch or better. I'll call that pretty elite.....

Okay, I get it. It's really hard. That doesn't keep many golfers from trying, though. Good thing for the golf industry. a1_smile.gif

I should check and see how many of the kids from first tee program are scratch by 15 to 18 years old. It's just that some of these kids are so talented. Like 7 year olds making birdie or par on par 3 courses like its nothing...

 

The boy in this link is the grandson of my former boss.  He has been hitting balls since he was 2, was on Good Morning America at 3.  This year at 8 he won the 10 and under Colorado Golf Association Junior Championship by 2 strokes.  I figure he'll be scratch or better if he stays with it.

 

Brayden Bozak

post #187 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyrtleBeachGolf View Post


Scratch is .13% not 1%. We are talking 1 out of 1000 not 1 out of 100.

Actually, it's 1 out of 769 c2_beer.gif

post #188 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post

 

So, what makes scratch so unattainable?

 

My kids have been playing for about 4 years now, but only from the standard white tees this year. My son is a 12 and my daughter is an 18 and play 3 hours a week. My son's friend plays four full rounds a week and is an 8. Both of my son and his friend are planning on playing scratch by 15 years old (3 years from now, when or after they hit puberty and get some muscles) just like a few of the high school team members are already. It just does not seem like an impossible goal, and their coaches do not think it is outrageous.

 

There seems to be a disconnect that I am not too clear about?

It is not an impossible goal, especially if you are taking up the game at a young age. Their goal though should not be necessarily scratch, but constant improvement. Scratch very well may come.

 

I was at a junior clinic earlier this year that Fred Couples was running through his connection with RBC. He made a point to tell the kids that they should not be setting goals to play on the pro tours, as a miniscule amount of players actually reach there (that was more directed at the parents than the kids). But he said they should focus on all the golf scholarships that are available and that playing in school and getting an education was a worthwhile goal. Makes a lot of sense. Playing for Oklahoma State or Arizona and moving on to the tours will happen for some, but most scratch players will have the oppportunity to play on a lesser stage, even Division III, which would be terrific.

post #189 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post

 

So, what makes scratch so unattainable?

 

My kids have been playing for about 4 years now, but only from the standard white tees this year. My son is a 12 and my daughter is an 18 and play 3 hours a week. My son's friend plays four full rounds a week and is an 8. Both of my son and his friend are planning on playing scratch by 15 years old (3 years from now, when or after they hit puberty and get some muscles) just like a few of the high school team members are already. It just does not seem like an impossible goal, and their coaches do not think it is outrageous.

 

There seems to be a disconnect that I am not too clear about?

It is not an impossible goal, especially if you are taking up the game at a young age. Their goal though should not be necessarily scratch, but constant improvement. Scratch very well may come.

 

I was at a junior clinic earlier this year that Fred Couples was running through his connection with RBC. He made a point to tell the kids that they should not be setting goals to play on the pro tours, as a miniscule amount of players actually reach there (that was more directed at the parents than the kids). But he said they should focus on all the golf scholarships that are available and that playing in school and getting an education was a worthwhile goal. Makes a lot of sense. Playing for Oklahoma State or Arizona and moving on to the tours will happen for some, but most scratch players will have the oppportunity to play on a lesser stage, even Division III, which would be terrific.

 

However, a high school grad with a decent GPA can often get on the golf team of a smaller college with just about any singe digit handicap - scratch isn't necessary.

post #190 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

 

However, a high school grad with a decent GPA can often get on the golf team of a smaller college with just about any singe digit handicap - scratch isn't necessary.

No, but it will go a long way. Anyway, the point is that using it for an education is a worthy goal.

post #191 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

 

However, a high school grad with a decent GPA can often get on the golf team of a smaller college with just about any singe digit handicap - scratch isn't necessary.

No, but it will go a long way. Anyway, the point is that using it for an education is a worthy goal.

 

Absolutely... no argument there.

post #192 of 215

I am not a coach or personal trainer. And I have also never said anyone can be scratch or that time and effort can make you elite (not sure if I would call scratch elite or very good. Depends on your definition). You have read that into what I have written. What I have said is that to maximize your golf potential 5 hours a week of golf isn't going to cut it. If you area 5 and don't want to spend time practicing the short game (i.e. the original post), it isn't clear that your limit is talent.

 

And yes this is stuff gets harder the better you get and the more you practice. If you are a 5 on 5 hours a week of practice (pretty much made up numbers), it might take 10 hours (3x the practice) to get to a 2 and and 30 hours (6x ) to get to a 0. And to be clear, hours are just a proxy. You can spend 30 hours a week at the driving range but if you are not working on the right stuff, it isn't going to help your game. 

 

You can look at stats that say only 1% of players (I have seen numbers from .1 to 2% I assume they use different data sets) are scratch and say that 99% of us have no chance. You can also look at the practice habits of most of those golfers and say that 99% of the golfer are making no effort to be the best golfer they can be.  Most of the golf population with handicaps are made up of guys that play 1-2 rounds a week and maybe hit the range/practice green for an hour a week.  I don't think that gets most of us close to our golf potential. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

 
I've spent many thousands of hours on my game over the last 40 years, playing and practicing. I've also competed in another sport at a VERY high level nationally, with some international exposure. I understand what hard work, coaching, dedication, and desire can accomplish....
......I also understand that they're not enough to get past a certain level. That level is different for all of us. That difference is based on our natural talent and athleticism.
I'm curious, are you a personal trainer or coach of some type? I'm just trying to understand the "time and effort" can get anyone to an elite level in anything mentality. Not picking, I'm genuinely curious. Thks.
post #193 of 215

Straight from the USGA website:

 

Scratch Golfer

A "scratch golfer" is a player who can play to a Course Handicap of zero on any and all rated golf courses. A male scratch golfer, for rating purposes, can hit tee shots an average of 250 yards and can reach a 470-yard hole in two shots at sea level. A female scratch golfer, for rating purposes, can hit tee shots an average of 210 yards and can reach a 400-yard hole in two shots at sea level.

 

Talking strictly about men, there are two conditions in the definition:

 

1) playing to a course handicap of 0

2) reaching a 470-yard hole in two

 

470 in two shots is beyond some players from a physical standpoint.  But 470 (think driver 250, three wood 220) in two shots from a purely physical standpoint is a piece of cake for a lot of players.  The rest (playing to a course handicap of zero), in my humble opinion, is a factor of hitting it straight consistently and being not too bad around the greens.  When you talk about the potential to play scratch golf, I think a lot more of us have it than we think. 

 

Here is me:  I got back into golf about 18 months ago after not playing seriously for 10 years and not at all for 5.  I was just okay 10 years ago, I probably played to anywhere between a 10 and a 15.  At the start of this year, I was probably playing to a 20.  I was having trouble breaking 100.  I got so frustrated.  I found myself avoiding the golf course.  At that point, I sort of changed my approach.  I figured that the pros make it look easy because it is easy to them.  There had to be a reason why I couldn't hit the ball well consistently.  I knew I had the physical tools.  It had to be my technique.

 

I spent a lot of time studying my swing and learning the proper mechanics of the golf swing and comparing the two.  I figured out a few things thanks always to thesandtrap.com and the greatest guy on the planet, Brian Manzella (video:Confessions of a Former Flipper, absolutely the best money I ever spent...).  I am currently at 7 or 8 and still very much on the way down.  The biggest difference is that I got my weight forward, got my hands in front at impact (flying wedge concept), and figured out a flat left wrist.  Golf is so much easier when you just do the right things.  It's really not even that hard and I say that with nothing but respect, humility, and encouragement to others.  It's just a matter of figuring it out.  So, next year at this time, I want to be at 2.  The year after, at 0 or better. At this point, really all I need to do is eliminate mistakes and hit more fairways and greens.  It's just a function of time and effort at this point.

 

I think that there are a lot of us who either sell ourselves short and/or don't ever manage or bother to figure out the mechanics.

 

I don't say any of this to brag or boast, because I still have a really long way to go.  These are just my experiences and thoughts regarding a subject on which I reflect often.  It's my goal to get to scratch.  It probably won't be easy but it will be worth it.  If I fail, I'll have a lot of fun failing...

post #194 of 215

80% of golfers has 18-36 handicap.
10% or less reach single.

every year 1200 or so golfers try to get one of 30 spots to earn a european tour card.

you need to shoot 3 under each round for 16 rounds.

Unless your a 64 or so shooter at your home course regulary , forget it.

 

scratch play is way easier to have.

post #195 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by daSeth View Post

Straight from the USGA website:

 

Scratch Golfer

A "scratch golfer" is a player who can play to a Course Handicap of zero on any and all rated golf courses. A male scratch golfer, for rating purposes, can hit tee shots an average of 250 yards and can reach a 470-yard hole in two shots at sea level. A female scratch golfer, for rating purposes, can hit tee shots an average of 210 yards and can reach a 400-yard hole in two shots at sea level.

 

Talking strictly about men, there are two conditions in the definition:

 

1) playing to a course handicap of 0

2) reaching a 470-yard hole in two

 

470 in two shots is beyond some players from a physical standpoint.  But 470 (think driver 250, three wood 220) in two shots from a purely physical standpoint is a piece of cake for a lot of players.  The rest (playing to a course handicap of zero), in my humble opinion, is a factor of hitting it straight consistently and being not too bad around the greens.  When you talk about the potential to play scratch golf, I think a lot more of us have it than we think. 

 

Here is me:  I got back into golf about 18 months ago after not playing seriously for 10 years and not at all for 5.  I was just okay 10 years ago, I probably played to anywhere between a 10 and a 15.  At the start of this year, I was probably playing to a 20.  I was having trouble breaking 100.  I got so frustrated.  I found myself avoiding the golf course.  At that point, I sort of changed my approach.  I figured that the pros make it look easy because it is easy to them.  There had to be a reason why I couldn't hit the ball well consistently.  I knew I had the physical tools.  It had to be my technique.

 

I spent a lot of time studying my swing and learning the proper mechanics of the golf swing and comparing the two.  I figured out a few things thanks always to thesandtrap.com and the greatest guy on the planet, Brian Manzella (video:Confessions of a Former Flipper, absolutely the best money I ever spent...).  I am currently at 7 or 8 and still very much on the way down.  The biggest difference is that I got my weight forward, got my hands in front at impact (flying wedge concept), and figured out a flat left wrist.  Golf is so much easier when you just do the right things.  It's really not even that hard and I say that with nothing but respect, humility, and encouragement to others.  It's just a matter of figuring it out.  So, next year at this time, I want to be at 2.  The year after, at 0 or better. At this point, really all I need to do is eliminate mistakes and hit more fairways and greens.  It's just a function of time and effort at this point.

 

I think that there are a lot of us who either sell ourselves short and/or don't ever manage or bother to figure out the mechanics.

 

I don't say any of this to brag or boast, because I still have a really long way to go.  These are just my experiences and thoughts regarding a subject on which I reflect often.  It's my goal to get to scratch.  It probably won't be easy but it will be worth it.  If I fail, I'll have a lot of fun failing...

You realize that's the point of it all right. It's deceivingly easy to get to an 8 or a 12 and it seems like better golf is right around the corner but that's right around the end of the road for a lot of people. I'd say a 10 is just about the exact handicap where everyone decides "hey this isn't easy I'm just going to keep practicing and I should be low single digits/scratch in no time.

 

Then the vast majority (99+%) stall out well before scratch. Don't take my word for it though, see for yourself. Again just like my comment above about Dan going from a 6.1 to a 6.3 over half a year of practicing as a full time job. That's what happens! There's a wall awaiting for the majority of people which is why hardly anyone is scratch.

post #196 of 215

One other thing, I don't know if anyone else has thought about why it's misleading but my thought is that it has to do with the difference between pars and birdies. Hear me out. :) It's pretty easy to make pars after you get semi-decent at golf, you can hack it around and make pars. Birdies on the other hand are much much more difficult to consistently pull off.

 

I feel like this is a chasm between the birdie and the par that really creates that separation as you approach scratch. You need to be technically much more perfect to pull out even a handful of birdies (maybe just 3 a round) and this is where I think it really breaks down for people that are 5-6 handicaps.

 

If nothing else consider this, at some point to shoot even par you have to be just as likely to make a birdie as you are a bogey. (think about that, it's crazy, and I suppose just similarly make two birdies for every double). It's not necessarily about more fairways and greens. It's about a huge leap in the level of playing ability on several holes to jump that chasm between par and birdie. If you are technically very skilled and can hit a lot of shots to 10-12 feet and sink those putts than you can offset your mistakes and be scratch. The majority of people are not. You are not close with your 12 pars and 6 bogeys, not close at all. The enormous gap in the skill required to convert 3 of those bogies to birdies is ENORMOUS. It is not simply 6 strokes.
 


Edited by Williamevanl - 12/4/12 at 10:20pm
post #197 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Williamevanl View Post

One other thing, I don't know if anyone else has thought about why it's misleading but my thought is that it has to do with the difference between pars and birdies. Hear me out. :) It's pretty easy to make pars after you get semi-decent at golf, you can hack it around and make pars. Birdies on the other hand are much much more difficult to consistently pull off.

 

I feel like this is a chasm between the birdie and the par that really creates that separation as you approach scratch. You need to be technically much more perfect to pull out even a handful of birdies (maybe just 3 a round) and this is where I think it really breaks down for people that are 5-6 handicaps.

 

If nothing else consider this, at some point to shoot even par you have to be just as likely to make a birdie as you are a bogey. (think about that, it's crazy, and I suppose just similarly make two birdies for every double). It's not necessarily about more fairways and greens. It's about a huge leap in the level of playing ability on several holes to jump that chasm between par and birdie. If you are technically very skilled and can hit a lot of shots to 10-12 feet and sink those putts than you can offset your mistakes and be scratch. The majority of people are not. You are not close with your 12 pars and 6 bogeys, not close at all. The enormous gap in the skill required to convert 3 of those bogies to birdies is ENORMOUS. It is not simply 6 strokes.
 

You know, it's easy to read your post and say "Duh, birdies are harder to get than pars and bogies."  But I think you are on to something here.  The bold statement is the simplest way I've yet heard to consider just how good scratch is.

post #198 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by caniac6 View Post

My putting is keeping me from getting to scratch. My handicap has gone from 2 to 4 in the last two months. My ball striking is ok, but I have lost my speed putting. Last weekend I shot an 83 with 6 three putts. Everything putt is past the hole. I tend to be a very streaky putter,and now I am in a bad streak.

 

I recently took the P.A.T. at Firestone C.C. in Akron Ohio. It was my first P.A.T. and I passed. I shot 151 for the 36 holes. The first 18 was raining and very cold. I shot a 78. After eating lunch and heading to the first tee, there was a practice green right behind hole 1. One of my playing partners had a caddie with him. This guy was making putts from everywhere. His caddie told me to look at the hole and make a practice stroke- looking the entire time at the hole. He then said just make the same swing that you did while looking at the hole. 

 

I took it a little further and just looked at the hole DURING the putt. I figured I've missed several putts without looking, at least I can see the putt miss. That wasn't the case though. I made just about everything I looked at. I finished with a 73 for the second round for the total of 151. My playing partners looked at me stunned that I was making so many putts. I now putt just looking at the hole. I don't miss from short and can leave it close from long. Your brain does not let you hit it too hard or too soft. At the very least you will 2-putt. You might be surprised at how well you do. I  have shot several rounds in the sixties since then. Maybe you should try it, let me know!

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