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Why are you not playing scratch? - Page 6

post #91 of 215

 You are right about that.Just because you get to a certain level does not mean working harder can get you to that next level. I know guys who were 2-4 handicappers that wanted to get to scratch but no matter how hard they worked they could not get there. There are guys who are plus handicappers who want to play on the PGA Tour but can't even make to the top of the lower tier tours. I believe everyone has a level that their talent and perseverance will or can take them. Once you reach that level you will not get much further no matter what you try or do. There are always people who can achieve just a bit more than others, but they are probably less that 1% of the population.

post #92 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by shanksalot View Post

When I said it was not worth the effort that was getting down to a 5 handicap. Getting to just a 2 or 3 from there would almost be impossible for me and certainly getting to scratch for me was not going to happen. I think people don't realize had hard it is to be a scratch golfer and maintain that level. To get to the level of a professional is another thing entirely. I can assure you I would hot be able to get to scratch in my lifetime today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NM Golf View Post

It takes talent to become scratch, there is no substitute for it. I know guys that have been playing longer than me, practice more than me, and play more than me, but they can't beat me and they never will. Its a special kind of talent as well as I have seen some great athletes just stink it up on the golf course.

 

The great thing is this, who cares?! Golf is such a great game, because being good at it is not a prerequisite for having fun on the course.



I couldn't agree more. I'm always amazed at the number of high handicappers who just know they'd be scratch or better if the only had a little more time.....

Most of them can't begin to understand just how far away a 5 handicap is from scratch, let alone a 15......

 

How true.   Too many players think that because they got from 30 to 15 in one year, that the same sort of progress can be made getting from 15 to scratch.  Once you get to about bogey golf, improvement gets to be exponentially harder.  The closer to zero you get, the more true that becomes.  I've known guys who were dedicated to practice and play, yet never managed to improve below about a 6 or a 7.  

 

However, most of us don't lose hope and give up because of that - we accept our limitations whatever they may be, time or dedication or talent, and we play the game because it's one of the most fun and challenging things we've found to do.

post #93 of 215

plenty of golfers on 4 down to scratch play brilliantly on the home course week in week out.....but put money on the line and its goodbye game...just cant handle the pressure.

a well known pro beat a 8 handicapper with a SW and putter.....no way the 8 handicapper should have lost.....choking is a killer undefined

post #94 of 215

I agree. But if you don't put in the work, you will not get better. A 5 that doesn't spend time on the practice green is a heck of a lot different than a 5 that has spent 1000 hours a year for the past 5 years practicing. There are a lot more guys in the first category than the second. 

 

And I keep mentioning time a lot but that is only half the equation. You need to practice in ways that make you better (which is hard to know) and on the things you need to make you better. Both of those are hard.

 

I have no clue what percentage of people would be scratch if could do the work, but I am willing to say if you got a 150k dollar check each year  being scratch, you would have 100x as many people doing it as it would be worthwhile for a lot more people to put in the time.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shanksalot View Post

 You are right about that.Just because you get to a certain level does not mean working harder can get you to that next level. I know guys who were 2-4 handicappers that wanted to get to scratch but no matter how hard they worked they could not get there. There are guys who are plus handicappers who want to play on the PGA Tour but can't even make to the top of the lower tier tours. I believe everyone has a level that their talent and perseverance will or can take them. Once you reach that level you will not get much further no matter what you try or do. There are always people who can achieve just a bit more than others, but they are probably less that 1% of the population.

post #95 of 215

 What you are saying is like someone playing baseball at the high school level who has no chance to play professionally all he needs to do is practice to get there. Not it doesn't work that way. You hit a wall when you get to your level of talent. You can practice til your hands bleed but you won't get there. I am not talking about getting to the Majors but getting to even the lowest level of the minor leagues. Here is the second part of that. How can most people practice 20-30 hours a week when they have a job that takes probably 60 hours of their week work and commuting included plus some OT. They come home and take care of things at home, eat dinner, play with the kids do the things married guys do and still get in that much practice and play as well? The way you talk everyone has all this extra time on their hands and to mention the amount of money it would cost to do it. Once you become an adult unless you are very selfish there is no way you can put in that much time and money and raise a family correctly.

 

  I can do this because I am retired but when you are a family man and work a full time job it is almost impossible without just ignoring your responsibilities. You just continue to think hard work will get someone to a scratch level and I tell you it is not easy to get to a 5 muck less get to scratch. I think anyone who has made it to a five has usually worked darn hard to get there but it takes a lot of work just to stay there much less to get to a 2 or 3. This is going to be my last post to you on this but let me say this in closing. If you think it is that easy then my advice to you is try it and see for yourself what it takes just to get down and stay down to only a single digit player for a year. Then after that try to get down to a 6-7 level and stay there for a year. Every few years try to drop down and stay at your new level for at least 12 months. They if you ever get down to a 5 and stay there for a year come let us know. If you have the talent desire and time you might be one of the lucky ones to achieve this level.

post #96 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by shanksalot View Post

You are right about that.Just because you get to a certain level does not mean working harder can get you to that next level. I know guys who were 2-4 handicappers that wanted to get to scratch but no matter how hard they worked they could not get there. There are guys who are plus handicappers who want to play on the PGA Tour but can't even make to the top of the lower tier tours. I believe everyone has a level that their talent and perseverance will or can take them. Once you reach that level you will not get much further no matter what you try or do. There are always people who can achieve just a bit more than others, but they are probably less that 1% of the population.

This is really easy to say, and could very possibly be right, but its impossible to prove.  The key being that there is absolutely no way to know what a persons ceiling is until they quit trying to push it higher.  And at that point, how do you even know they actually reached their talent level?  Perhaps they just stopped getting better because they stopped trying?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shanksalot View Post

What you are saying is like someone playing baseball at the high school level who has no chance to play professionally all he needs to do is practice to get there. Not it doesn't work that way. You hit a wall when you get to your level of talent. You can practice til your hands bleed but you won't get there. I am not talking about getting to the Majors but getting to even the lowest level of the minor leagues. Here is the second part of that. How can most people practice 20-30 hours a week when they have a job that takes probably 60 hours of their week work and commuting included plus some OT. They come home and take care of things at home, eat dinner, play with the kids do the things married guys do and still get in that much practice and play as well? The way you talk everyone has all this extra time on their hands and to mention the amount of money it would cost to do it. Once you become an adult unless you are very selfish there is no way you can put in that much time and money and raise a family correctly.

 

  I can do this because I am retired but when you are a family man and work a full time job it is almost impossible without just ignoring your responsibilities. You just continue to think hard work will get someone to a scratch level and I tell you it is not easy to get to a 5 muck less get to scratch. I think anyone who has made it to a five has usually worked darn hard to get there but it takes a lot of work just to stay there much less to get to a 2 or 3. This is going to be my last post to you on this but let me say this in closing. If you think it is that easy then my advice to you is try it and see for yourself what it takes just to get down and stay down to only a single digit player for a year. Then after that try to get down to a 6-7 level and stay there for a year. Every few years try to drop down and stay at your new level for at least 12 months. They if you ever get down to a 5 and stay there for a year come let us know. If you have the talent desire and time you might be one of the lucky ones to achieve this level.

You gotta start using the quote button at the bottom of the post you are responding to because, otherwise, posts like this don't really make any sense.  If one or two people sneak in a short post in the time it took you to write this one, then the guy you are responding to is now half way up the page.

post #97 of 215

I am guessing playing minor league baseball is an order of magnitude harder than being scratch. Lets not pretend that being scratch is close to a pro level. The difference between 0 and the +5 or so of a PGA pro probably a bigger gap than the difference between a 20 and 0.  Being world class is when talent and hard work intersect. Being very good at something is in the reach of most people that put in the hard work. 

 

I never said spending 20+ hours a week is easy or a good life choice. But it is what most of us need to do to get to scratch. I accept that I am only going to practice 200 hours/yr maybe about that much of playing time  means that I am never getting to scratch.  I will probably be lucky to get to mid single digits. But it isn't lack of talent that is holding me back from being scratch.  It is time.

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by shanksalot View Post

 What you are saying is like someone playing baseball at the high school level who has no chance to play professionally all he needs to do is practice to get there. Not it doesn't work that way. You hit a wall when you get to your level of talent. You can practice til your hands bleed but you won't get there. I am not talking about getting to the Majors but getting to even the lowest level of the minor leagues. Here is the second part of that. How can most people practice 20-30 hours a week when they have a job that takes probably 60 hours of their week work and commuting included plus some OT. They come home and take care of things at home, eat dinner, play with the kids do the things married guys do and still get in that much practice and play as well? The way you talk everyone has all this extra time on their hands and to mention the amount of money it would cost to do it. Once you become an adult unless you are very selfish there is no way you can put in that much time and money and raise a family correctly.

 

  I can do this because I am retired but when you are a family man and work a full time job it is almost impossible without just ignoring your responsibilities. You just continue to think hard work will get someone to a scratch level and I tell you it is not easy to get to a 5 muck less get to scratch. I think anyone who has made it to a five has usually worked darn hard to get there but it takes a lot of work just to stay there much less to get to a 2 or 3. This is going to be my last post to you on this but let me say this in closing. If you think it is that easy then my advice to you is try it and see for yourself what it takes just to get down and stay down to only a single digit player for a year. Then after that try to get down to a 6-7 level and stay there for a year. Every few years try to drop down and stay at your new level for at least 12 months. They if you ever get down to a 5 and stay there for a year come let us know. If you have the talent desire and time you might be one of the lucky ones to achieve this level.

post #98 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by x129 View Post

I am guessing playing minor league baseball is an order of magnitude harder than being scratch. Lets not pretend that being scratch is close to a pro level. The difference between 0 and the +5 or so of a PGA pro probably a bigger gap than the difference between a 20 and 0.  Being world class is when talent and hard work intersect. Being very good at something is in the reach of most people that put in the hard work. 

 

I never said spending 20+ hours a week is easy or a good life choice. But it is what most of us need to do to get to scratch. I accept that I am only going to practice 200 hours/yr maybe about that much of playing time  means that I am never getting to scratch.  I will probably be lucky to get to mid single digits. But it isn't lack of talent that is holding me back from being scratch.  It is time.

I'm sure there are professional baseball players out there who suck at golf that would love to disagree with you, however, this is absolutely true.  There are a finite number of "open" spots to play minor league baseball, yet everybody has a chance to become scratch at golf.  (Not saying they have the ability or drive to do so, just the opportunity)

 

I don't know how to compare scratch at golf to any other sports.  (Somebody might say bowling, but I wouldn't, it's too freaking easy) c2_beer.gif

post #99 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by x129 View Post

I am guessing playing minor league baseball is an order of magnitude harder than being scratch. Lets not pretend that being scratch is close to a pro level. The difference between 0 and the +5 or so of a PGA pro probably a bigger gap than the difference between a 20 and 0.  Being world class is when talent and hard work intersect. Being very good at something is in the reach of most people that put in the hard work. 

 

I never said spending 20+ hours a week is easy or a good life choice. But it is what most of us need to do to get to scratch. I accept that I am only going to practice 200 hours/yr maybe about that much of playing time  means that I am never getting to scratch.  I will probably be lucky to get to mid single digits. But it isn't lack of talent that is holding me back from being scratch.  It is time.

 


No I don't think it is that much different. I had a chance to play semi pro ball and while that is not all that close to low minor league ball I never could get to scratch. I have played against guys who got to double and triple A ball and they were better than I was but not like a scratch player versus my golfing ability. You can keep kidding yourself that it is only time keeping you from being a scratch golfer but the only way to really know is to try it. Talking does not make it real.

post #100 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

I'm sure there are professional baseball players out there who suck at golf that would love to disagree with you, however, this is absolutely true.  There are a finite number of "open" spots to play minor league baseball, yet everybody has a chance to become scratch at golf.  (Not saying they have the ability or drive to do so, just the opportunity)

 

I don't know how to compare scratch at golf to any other sports.  (Somebody might say bowling, but I wouldn't, it's too freaking easy) c2_beer.gif

Being a great athlete does not mean that person can be a scratch golfer. Look at Charles Barkley that dude was fantastic and a Hall of Fame basketball player but can't play golf to save his life. To me golf is one of the hardest sports to master and one of the reasons  it is is you alone against the course. There is no teammate to pick you up when you hit a bad shot or have a bad day. Golf will show you what kind of person you are and how you handle getting beat up on the course when you are playing poorly. When I played ball I did not care if I went 0 for 4 as long as we won the game. On the other hand I did not enjoy going 5 for 5 and losing the game. It takes a whole different mental make up to play golf and a whole different type of talent.

post #101 of 215

What does your baseball skill have to do with your golf game?  Lets look at the numbers. The USGA says there are ~300k scratch golfers in the united states. How many minor league ball players do you think there are? A quick google suggest there are ~200 teams in the US and lets say each one has 30 players (I have no idea between call ups, cuts, and the like how accurate that is but I am guessing it is within a factor of 2). That is 6000 people.  

 

As far as people putting in the time and getting to scratch, read Paper Tiger. The guy goes from ~15 to a ~+1 in 9 months by practicing a zillion hours a day. Or look at the Dan plan where a guy has gone from no golf to a 6 in about 3 years.  We can check back in another 2 and see if he gets to scratch. The dream on guy (24 handicap to breaking par at a muni. Yes that isn't scratch but it is also only 1 year of training). And yes to be fair there are the failures littered across the internet of guys that have put in serious amount of time and are still 8s. 

 

The point is that for most of us it requires a crazy amount of practice (i.e. something few people over 21 can do) to get to scratch with our physical abilities. You can consider that a physical limitation. I consider it a time one.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by shanksalot View Post


No I don't think it is that much different. I had a chance to play semi pro ball and while that is not all that close to low minor league ball I never could get to scratch. I have played against guys who got to double and triple A ball and they were better than I was but not like a scratch player versus my golfing ability. You can keep kidding yourself that it is only time keeping you from being a scratch golfer but the only way to really know is to try it. Talking does not make it real.

post #102 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by x129 View Post

What does your baseball skill have to do with your golf game?  Lets look at the numbers. The USGA says there are ~300k scratch golfers in the united states. How many minor league ball players do you think there are? A quick google suggest there are ~200 teams in the US and lets say each one has 30 players (I have no idea between call ups, cuts, and the like how accurate that is but I am guessing it is within a factor of 2). That is 6000 people.  

 

As far as people putting in the time and getting to scratch, read Paper Tiger. The guy goes from ~15 to a ~+1 in 9 months by practicing a zillion hours a day. Or look at the Dan plan where a guy has gone from no golf to a 6 in about 3 years.  We can check back in another 2 and see if he gets to scratch. The dream on guy (24 handicap to breaking par at a muni. Yes that isn't scratch but it is also only 1 year of training). And yes to be fair there are the failures littered across the internet of guys that have put in serious amount of time and are still 8s. 

 

The point is that for most of us it requires a crazy amount of practice (i.e. something few people over 21 can do) to get to scratch with our physical abilities. You can consider that a physical limitation. I consider it a time one.

 

Quote:

I have a friend who was always around a 7-8 handicap but he was always busy with work and rarely found time to work on his game. Once he built his business to a certain level he took his golf more seriously and, when he turned 50, he went all out one season, got down to about a 1, and won our club championship. He's kept his cap around 1-4 into his 60's. I think it's fair to say that the time he put into it was the key but I should also point out that he was a high school all-city basketball player and was an all-conference player in Division III. I think his athletic ability had a lot to do with it and I doubt that I could have done what he did, even with all the time commitment.

post #103 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post

I have a friend who was always around a 7-8 handicap but he was always busy with work and rarely found time to work on his game. Once he built his business to a certain level he took his golf more seriously and, when he turned 50, he went all out one season, got down to about a 1, and won our club championship. He's kept his cap around 1-4 into his 60's. I think it's fair to say that the time he put into it was the key but I should also point out that he was a high school all-city basketball player and was an all-conference player in Division III. I think his athletic ability had a lot to do with it and I doubt that I could have done what he did, even with all the time commitment.

Well, for someone with a <10 cap, you would think that your athletic ability is pretty good. I mean its pretty damn hard to get down that low. I'm sure if you put the time and effort into your game and with the right drills and routines you could make it to scratch. I have been playing for a little under a year (about once a week) and I'm a 17. I have played very competitive sports my whole life and I can definitely see the scores improving the more time i spend on my game. As i take it more seriously, I seem to produce a lot better. I think the same goes for anyone who is WILLING to do the right things to get them to being a scratch golfer. Most of it is "how bad do you want it?"

post #104 of 215

how can one say that practice will not make someone better, no matter their level?  If you practice correctly on the proper things...how would you not improve?  There is no "limit" to someones ability at ANY sport as far as fundamentals go..and thats all golf requires. 

 

Being "really strong" has been disproved.

Being tall has been disproved.

Being perfectly fit has been disproved.

 

 

There is nothing stopping anyone on this board from hitting true 300 yard drives if they have the proper mechanics.  The only limit to the game of golf are our own habits, not some mythical "talent level"  Talent is a product of hard work and execution..not something you are born with. 

post #105 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post

how can one say that practice will not make someone better, no matter their level?  If you practice correctly on the proper things...how would you not improve?  There is no "limit" to someones ability at ANY sport as far as fundamentals go..and thats all golf requires. 

 

Being "really strong" has been disproved.

Being tall has been disproved.

Being perfectly fit has been disproved.

 

 

There is nothing stopping anyone on this board from hitting true 300 yard drives if they have the proper mechanics.  The only limit to the game of golf are our own habits, not some mythical "talent level"  Talent is a product of hard work and execution..not something you are born with. 

Well said

post #106 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post

how can one say that practice will not make someone better, no matter their level?  If you practice correctly on the proper things...how would you not improve?  There is no "limit" to someones ability at ANY sport as far as fundamentals go..and thats all golf requires. 

Being "really strong" has been disproved.
Being tall has been disproved.
Being perfectly fit has been disproved.


There is nothing stopping anyone on this board from hitting true 300 yard drives if they have the proper mechanics.  The only limit to the game of golf are our own habits, not some mythical "talent level"  Talent is a product of hard work and execution..not something you are born with. 

Damn. Now I'm going to have to explain to my wife that I'm not playing on tour and earning tens of millions because I'm just lazy.

She's not gonna be happy to hear that!
post #107 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post


Damn. Now I'm going to have to explain to my wife that I'm not playing on tour and earning tens of millions because I'm just lazy.
She's not gonna be happy to hear that!

Just tell her that she is the one who is being lazy...certainly she would be hitting true 300 yard drives if she put in the hard work to perfect her technique.  

post #108 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
 Talent is a product of hard work and execution..not something you are born with. 

 

bullsh*t

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