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Importance of Acceleration Thru Impact - Page 5

post #73 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by logman View Post

Hi saevel, thanks for some of the insights BUT....ha ha. You know the sorts of swings I'm trying to highlight. The heavily muscled guys that take half swings and seem to muscle the ball, surely their acceleration has to be greater because the guys using a half swing....as opposed to a long slow smooth swing of a more loose limbed sort of bloke. I play with one of the latter types, he hits the ball a mile and seems to build his power very gradually, he even uses regular flex in his clubs. On the other hand my swing is shorter and more strength.

 

That's not what's being discussed. Obviously everyone accelerates on the downswing. But if you arrive at 100 MPH, you arrive at 100 MPH. I don't care whether it took you a tenth of a second or four seconds to get there. The ball only really knows you've hit it with a clubhead moving 100 MPH.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by logman View Post

Hell, though, you'd rather be accelerating than decelerating........HHmmmm ?

 

As I said before it's largely irrelevant. If you reach 110 MPH and then hit the ball after decelerating to 100 MPH, the ball's going the same distance (within a few inches) as a ball hit with a clubhead that goes from 90 to 100 MPH in the same space and/or time as the 110 -> 100 MPH swing.

 

Basically, what happened before impact (positive or negative acceleration) is irrelevant to the impact itself. It only serves to "set up" impact.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by NotBillCosby View Post

If you think about accelerating, then you won't decelerate...   That is the point.

 

I disagree. People's swings make them accelerate or decelerate. Feel isn't real. I could take a lousy golfer who hits max speed two feet behind the golf ball and tell him to "think about accelerating" and his swing will more than likely look almost exactly the same and produce the same location of fastest clubhead speed.

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by NotBillCosby View Post

Especially for chipping and pitching this is important.  All you have to think about is how for to take it back and always accelerate to eliminate guesswork through impact.  For pitching and chipping, what you don't want to do is take it back the same amount and try to guess how much to accelerate the club to get the proper distance.

 

I disagree, but that's probably pretty obvious by now. :)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post

The problem with thinking acceleration, its not a good tip for general use. I've seen countless amateurs hit duff chip shots because they think they have to accelerate and they end up loosing there wrist angle and duffing it, or they think acceleration and they lift up and skull it. I've seen amateurs have massive aggressive swings, but all there doing is lashing out loosing all there power early.

 

Yup.

post #74 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Righty to Lefty View Post

 

I absolutely had to tame this problem and I get the same sensation that you do of really feeling like I'm giving very little effort yet the club rockets off the club face. And since I'm not reacting to a 97 mph fastball it feels like and eternity before I fire my hips but I learned to be patient and wait and my scores  dropped 10 shots within one month of just accepting that was how I was wired. What I feel now shows outwardly when other people watch me swing now also because people now tell me that I have "lazy power" and ask me how is it that I'm not swinging hard but hitting it far !!  Oh yes,,, leverage is a beautiful thing. 

 

Wow that's encouraging.  I came upon this in the middle of a round with a 47 on the front and then put a 39 on the back with a super rushed bogey in the almost dark well after sunset on 18.  Since then I've been working at the range and it's still incredibly encouraging.  When I can really actually go very very easy at the start and and just push a little at the end to get the club face around, I'll go through streaks feeling like I could suddenly start shooting 75s instead of 80-90.

 

But it's REALLY hard to fully pull back and accept the new feel enough.  I'll barely swing for a few and hit a string of 3i shots where I feel just totally athletic and completely in control of the ball and the shots would all be on a large green, with a high percentage that would be on a small green, all 95-100% of my normal distance.  Then I'll subconsciously basically get excited and feel like oh I can feel exactly how that sequence is supposed to go, I could hit it where I want AND add 15-20 yards to my previous yardages if I just ramp it up a LITTLE.  Then of course all my old problems come right back in and I start spraying the ball and not feeling in control at all.

 

Maybe I'll use "lazy power" as a swing thought/motivation.  Like, instead of the semi-conscious "If I can hit it that far on target (feeling like I'm) trying that little, wanna see what happens when I try harder!?", maybe I'll try to ingrain, "Wanna see how lazy and underpowered I can make my swing look and feel while still hitting it the same/similar distance?".  I have always loved watching Els swing...

 

Maybe traces all the way to the fact that I never really learned how to let the ball get deep and finish with the hands in baseball.  Didn't do it naturally and never even had anyone try to teach me that until senior year in college when a career minor league alum came back for spring training and helped coach batting.

post #75 of 95

I like how you explain acceleration very well. 

post #76 of 95

But Erik as a purely scientific discussion of lump of metal hitting golf ball yes your right. but isn't there more to the way the operator of the lump of metal strikes the ball? or maybe that's not the issue. What I'm saying is you have to accelerate the club from 0 to 100 mph, it would be better to keep that linear acceleration.....accelerating, rather than adding a decellerating action as well. having a swing that builds power over it's length in a linear fashion would seem to me to be advantageous in terms of matching the thought of the shot and the execution of it.

 

Oh and "feel isn't real" wtf. ?  Feel CAN be real, surely

post #77 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by logman View Post

But Erik as a purely scientific discussion of lump of metal hitting golf ball yes your right. but isn't there more to the way the operator of the lump of metal strikes the ball? or maybe that's not the issue. What I'm saying is you have to accelerate the club from 0 to 100 mph, it would be better to keep that linear acceleration.....accelerating, rather than adding a decellerating action as well. having a swing that builds power over it's length in a linear fashion would seem to me to be advantageous in terms of matching the thought of the shot and the execution of it.

The deceleration occurs after the impact.  You accelerate to impact and in the action of transference of energy, the club head loses velocity and thus decelerates.  In the hitting of the ball, all that matters is what happens to impact of the ball, ie. the downswing and acceleration to the ball.  The follow through can be a link to what you did on that downswing, but has no effect on where the ball will go.


 

Oh and "feel isn't real" wtf. ?  Feel CAN be real, surely

Feel is biased.  If one feels cold, does it mean it's cold outside? Not necessarily.  Just because you think it may be real because you felt it, doesn't mean it's scientifically real.  But, sure it can sometimes be real.

post #78 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by logman View Post

But Erik as a purely scientific discussion of lump of metal hitting golf ball yes your right. but isn't there more to the way the operator of the lump of metal strikes the ball? or maybe that's not the issue. What I'm saying is you have to accelerate the club from 0 to 100 mph, it would be better to keep that linear acceleration.....accelerating, rather than adding a decellerating action as well. having a swing that builds power over it's length in a linear fashion would seem to me to be advantageous in terms of matching the thought of the shot and the execution of it.

 

Oh and "feel isn't real" wtf. ?  Feel CAN be real, surely

 

Not really, because the acceleration pattern isn't linear at all, the swing has its highest acceleration early in the downswing, and then the accleration is still positive till impact, when optimally it zero, then you have deacceleration after impact. 

 

also, there is no way you can tell if your having constant acceleration or not. By the time you hit the ball your body is already slowing down. This is proven no matter what you say or feel, period. If your not, then your not maximizing power. Think of it this way, if you think acceleration in the context you want it to mean. Then if your still accelerating through the ball, your wasting power. If you took that acceleration back, letting your body transfer all that energy you will hit the ball farther and more solid. This is why at impact your hips have rotate past the ball, your torso has, your arms have (hands in front, flat left wrist) the rest is to apply the clubhead to the ball. When your body gets past the ball, its deaccelerating, which is a good sign, it means your putting all that energy to the clubhead into velocity. the thing is, it should all be subconcious with you worrying about it. A good teacher will get you in the right positions were it wont matter, you will be able to swing fast, slow, the acceleration profile will be the same, because your in a good position for it. That is the reason being in Sync is important. Adding the though, i need to accelerate. Is a huge timing thought, that can throw the hole thing out of sync, causing at best loss of power, at worst bad swing habits. 

 

Think of feel this way, 

Its summer, you have one day were it drops to 50 degrees out, you think its cold. But then near winter you have a few cold days, then its 50 degrees out, it feels so nice and warm to you, that you probably could wear summer cloths with out being cold. Feel is based on a difference between what your use to and what is different, and that is based on pre-existing assumptions your body makes. 

 

Its like saying, ok this dish will taste this way for everyone. Its not true, everyone tastes things differently. Its like golf, everybody feels things differently. Each person needs individual attention in instruction, but what Erik and there system does is makes sure your in the right position that have been proven through research (flat front wrist at impact). The rest is up to you developing feel. What were discussing here is what is real, and why you shouldn't be living off the generic advice that might do more harm than good. 

Its like when everybody read ben hogan's book, one professional said it kept him in business because it created a generation of slicers. No one realized till later, all hogan was doing was trying not to hit the ball left. people though they could just be like Hogan instead of finding what works for them. 

post #79 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by logman View Post

What I'm saying is you have to accelerate the club from 0 to 100 mph, it would be better to keep that linear acceleration.....accelerating, rather than adding a decellerating action as well. having a swing that builds power over it's length in a linear fashion would seem to me to be advantageous in terms of matching the thought of the shot and the execution of it.

 

Oh and "feel isn't real" wtf. ?  Feel CAN be real, surely

 

Feel is rarely real. And you're not "adding a decelerating action." You're simply delivering maximum speed at impact.

 

And the acceleration is not linear. Not the clubhead, the hands, etc.

post #80 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by logman View Post

 

Oh and "feel isn't real" wtf. ?  Feel CAN be real, surely

 

If feel were real, I'd swing like Erik. But I don't. Even though I feel I do the same as he does.

 

Heck, my practice swing feels the same as my shot but it looks drastically different. We're talking less than 5 seconds between two swings. Perception is not a constant.

Remembering feelings and associating them with results is the only way to really make changes.

 

Also, do something often enough and this will feel like the new "normal"; you might then need to feel the total opposite of what you were doing to obtain the same results.

Feel ain't real.

post #81 of 95

I'm feeling a bit nervous now, but here goes. So have none of you guys that espouse the view that acceleration or deceleration has no effect/doesn't exist ever played say a wedge shot from 60 or 70 meters and at the top of the backswing have that panicky moment when you think "crap, I'm swinging too hard at this I've gotta pull my punch a little bit here" or likewise, I'm going to have to punch this a little bit harder than I thought. Is that just me? Does no body get to the A6 position and go "uh oh I should have made that A.5.5" and then try to ease up on the swing because you've taken too much swing?

 

I got the feeling that the thread started with that idea.....that in the event of a shot that was an in betweener it was better to hit with a free flowing accelerating stroke with a lower club that a 3/4 shot from a club where at the last second you were trying to back off the power because of the missread.

post #82 of 95

That isn't an acceleration problem, that's a feel problem and knowing your distances, and your swing. The fix is not to think, ACCELERATE, the fix is more fundamental there, proper technique. 

post #83 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post

That isn't an acceleration problem, that's a feel problem and knowing your distances, and your swing. The fix is not to think, ACCELERATE, the fix is more fundamental there, proper technique. 

I would have thought trying to muscle the club at the last minute because you got worried about a head wind or easing up on the downswing because in the back of your mind your spooked by how the hole drops away from you are acceleration and deceleration issues. I'm not saying its desireable 

 

There's feel in how fast I think I need to swing the club in the first p[lace and there's feel in second guessing my original swing selection.

 

Don't you think that both feels could be real? or both could be wrong....or any combination of right or wrong is possible???

post #84 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by logman View Post

I'm feeling a bit nervous now, but here goes. So have none of you guys that espouse the view that acceleration or deceleration has no effect/doesn't exist ever played say a wedge shot from 60 or 70 meters and at the top of the backswing have that panicky moment when you think "crap, I'm swinging too hard at this I've gotta pull my punch a little bit here" or likewise, I'm going to have to punch this a little bit harder than I thought. Is that just me? Does no body get to the A6 position and go "uh oh I should have made that A.5.5" and then try to ease up on the swing because you've taken too much swing?

 

I got the feeling that the thread started with that idea.....that in the event of a shot that was an in betweener it was better to hit with a free flowing accelerating stroke with a lower club that a 3/4 shot from a club where at the last second you were trying to back off the power because of the missread.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by logman View Post

I would have thought trying to muscle the club at the last minute because you got worried about a head wind or easing up on the downswing because in the back of your mind your spooked by how the hole drops away from you are acceleration and deceleration issues. I'm not saying its desireable 

 

There's feel in how fast I think I need to swing the club in the first p[lace and there's feel in second guessing my original swing selection.

 

Don't you think that both feels could be real? or both could be wrong....or any combination of right or wrong is possible???

 

Those are kind of missing the point of the thread... The OP is suggesting that the ball be hit while the club is still accelerating, which as explained multiple times here is not an efficient way to swing at the very least. What you are suggesting is that at the top of the swing you realize you don't have enough club and swing harder or have too much and back off a bit, not really the same. You can decide to swing harder or softer and still come into impact with the swing top speed.

post #85 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post

That isn't an acceleration problem, that's a feel problem and knowing your distances, and your swing. The fix is not to think, ACCELERATE, the fix is more fundamental there, proper technique. 

 

Yeah, and that's not what the topic of this thread is about.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tristanhilton85 View Post

You can decide to swing harder or softer and still come into impact with the swing top speed.

 

Yup. Or you can back off on how much you accelerate, but still hit the ball at top speed. You've just managed to lower that top speed a little bit.

 

Still not the topic though logman.

post #86 of 95

I'm confused, I just read the first post again and I thought that's what we're talking about. Erik can you do a quick summary. I'm stuggling to ubderstand cause I know that I can decelerate in my swing and I know I can accelerate. I thought the thread was about the positivity you feel when you strike the ball with a strong, committed, and accelerating swing

post #87 of 95
The thread topic, and the first post is about acceleration through impact. I assume the club head.

If the dwell time of the contact between the club face and the ball is constant independent of the speed at which the club is traveling, there is no gain from the jerk or jolt. Therefore, what Erik is stating about acceleration not affecting the ball velocity is true.

He provided us with the information that the impact time is relatively constant at 400 microseconds. If this does not change with the velocity of the club head, then there will be no gain with higher acceleration rates.

In fact, I am wondering if hitting the sweet spot on the club gives you 400 microseconds, while not hitting it would give you shorter dwell times?
post #88 of 95

Hi, my opinion is if a player isn't accelerating/ begining to release the stored power of the backswing then multiple symptoms could be there. Also in a dynamic athletic movement like a downswing in golf has not got acceleration then the swing will be deccelerating which mostly causes FAT shots IF the weight transfer and left side clearing too is in deccel and lazy!! weight tends to languish on the right side then IF the correct backswing was in fact completed correctly.  Pitching will reveal fat shots due to deccelerating in my game from time to time. Both Niclaus and Mickleson are big on ripping through the ball at all times. Hope that helps

post #89 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by the chopper View Post

Hi, my opinion is if a player isn't accelerating/ begining to release the stored power of the backswing then multiple symptoms could be there. Also in a dynamic athletic movement like a downswing in golf has not got acceleration then the swing will be deccelerating which mostly causes FAT shots IF the weight transfer and left side clearing too is in deccel and lazy!! weight tends to languish on the right side then IF the correct backswing was in fact completed correctly.  Pitching will reveal fat shots due to deccelerating in my game from time to time. Both Niclaus and Mickleson are big on ripping through the ball at all times. Hope that helps

 

I disagree. I'll note that you've included a video of Phil Mickelson, who has several videos in which he explains feels that aren't even real to what he does. Most famously, "hinge and hold" on ALL short game shots, when Phil rarely hinges and holds. Measurements show that that PGA Tour level golfers are not accelerating through and after impact on their short game shots.

 

I can decelerate prior to impact and not hit the ball fat. Pitching, chipping, putting... Not saying it's always best to decelerate through impact with short shots, but accelerating through and after impact is not terribly effective, either (in addition to it rarely occurring given the added friction of, you know, the ground :D).

 

All that said, I AGREE that keeping your weight back leads to fat shots (in any type of swing) - which is why on short shots we prefer to pre-set a lot of weight forward. I'm also not 100% sure if you're talking about the short shots (as the video would suggest) or full swing shots.

post #90 of 95

Like i said, i have only seen maybe a handful of people deaccelerate in any shot, except putting. Short game, long game, irons, driver, doesn't matter. Amateurs rarely deaccelerate. They mostly swing way to hard and out of balance. Majority of them have there whole swing out of sync, and accelerating is not an issue. 

 

Now it might work for maybe a handful of people, maybe that's the thought that syncs up there swing. But as a general rule of thumb, its not something i would prescribe. 

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