Putting without reading the green - Page 3

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas 

And nobody's gotten worse at putting after doing AimPoint. Not even close. If you can use AimPoint to find straight or the direction and amount of slope you're a better putter.

Ummm, yeah .... that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by saevel25 

The question is, how would you determine the proper stimp? That's the only variable i don't know. I can say turn the page, but what if its not that page, what if its the next, or the one after. To me, to keep guessing would really throw me off my game and be very irritating. 

No matter what method you employ, speed of the green is a variable that you have to account for.  To me, its sort of like saying "I prefer walking to riding a bicycle, because if I'm on a bike and it rains, I'm going to get wet."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad 

Ummm, yeah .... that.

Sorry my intention was not to talk down the Aimpiont teaching. I can see how it could be very valuable to most golfers.

I have attended an aim point class with Erik and Dave.  Two other site members, jmao and derrick, also happened to be there.  When I got back home I practiced some with it and while still even to now, not all that comfortable with busting out the actual chart, I do find straight and feel the slope with my feet.  You wouldn't even  realize I was doing it.  It has made me a significantly better putter. My putts are almost always breaking towards the hole when they miss. In other words, they always are looking like they have a chance to go in. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by logman 

Feet are great, but usually the slope is clear, the question is how much to borrow. Good putters have imagination, they tend to have a 3 dimensional thought process. Aimpoint seems to rely on a consistent stimp(from green to green) and more worrying a consistent break. Most greens I putt on are more organic than that. 

That's just my opinion on it.

It's not like we (aimpoint users) all just turn into robots with a chart.  We can do and see all of the same stuff as everybody else, and on top of that, we have the ability (some better than others - I'm an 'other') to read greens with our feet and apply it to the chart.  If you have a magical ability (not meaning to be condescending, but rather complimentary) to tell the difference between an 8.5, 9 and 9.5 stimp green with your eyes as you progress through the course, you won't lose that ability by learning Aimpoint.  In fact, the opposite is true.  You would be able to enhance your charts by knowing which ones to use on each hole.  There is no rule that just because the practice green tested at an 8 that they all have to be 8's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by logman 

Sorry my intention was not to talk down the Aimpiont teaching. I can see how it could be very valuable to most golfers.

No need to apologize to me ... I wasn't directing my emphatic agreement with Erik at you.  Actually, I wasn't directing it at anybody. 

Quick question about Aim point, where can I go online to learn how this philosophy works? And also do all you AimPoint guys carry around that chart and pull it out for every putt? I could maybe do that if I was playing by myself on a Wednesday with nobody else out there. But playing with a group on a crowded course this would take far to long

The stimp may be different on each green. As they dry out in the morning, they get faster. Playing later in the afternoon, they may get slower as the grass grows a little. No one can know exactly the stimp at any given time, it's an educated guess, nothing more.  If you make your best guess (through trial and error on the practice green before the round) that is all you can do.

I'm not an Aimpointer, but I have seen some of their charts online, and know that the difference in the amount of break between a 9 or a 10 stimp green is small (maybe one inch in 10 feet +/-?), even at 90° to the fall line. About the same as the difference between a slope of 1.5% and 2.0%.

With all the variables on each putt (speed, slope, grain, distance, etc.) what Aimpoint or Vector, or other semi-scientific method does is, give the golfer more confidence that he has the correct starting point. And confidence goes a long way toward making a good putting stroke, and thus making more putts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harmonious 

I'm not an Aimpointer, but I have seen some of their charts online, and know that the difference in the amount of break between a 9 or a 10 stimp green is small (maybe one inch in 10 feet +/-?), even at 90° to the fall line. About the same as the difference between a slope of 1.5% and 2.0%.

It's two inches, and those two inches matter when you're only ten feet away. Good putters feel they can start the ball online within an inch at ten feet.

Using the entire hole you only have 0.549° to make the putt. Shift your aim two inches farther sideways and you've now got half as much margin of error (and it's all to one side).

http://thesandtrap.com/b/the_numbers_game/angles_of_error

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiger1242 

And also do all you AimPoint guys carry around that chart and pull it out for every putt? I could maybe do that if I was playing by myself on a Wednesday with nobody else out there. But playing with a group on a crowded course this would take far to long

I don't use it for every putt yet.  The basic class only covers single breaking putts, so if I have confusing double breakers, or if I'm putting up or down a big tier, or if I just have a putt over 25-30 feet where I'm really mostly concerned with speed, I don't usually go to the charts.

     Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas 

The opposite is true: people ask me how I putt so well since "you don't even read the greens." I do it so quickly they don't even notice.

 

When someone says "B-8" in a game of Battleship, how long does it take you to say "hit" or "miss"? Point being the chart is out of my pocket for about three to five seconds.

 

I'm a FASTER green reader with AimPoint... like 3x faster.

I can vouch for this, I have seen him do it.  Most people are probably still going to want to get behind the putt and give it a cursory look, but all of the other stuff you might have been doing in the past like looking at it from the side, or walking around to the other side of the hole and looking at it are totally unnecessary.  Once you get good at it like Erik is, it takes as long as it would take you to walk to the hole from your ball and back, with a 3-4 second or so pause in the middle on the way back to read the slope, check the chart as you are walking the rest of the way back, visualize the line and hit it.  He had us time him during our class from the moment he first walked up to his ball and marked it until he hit it, and I want to say it was something like 20 seconds.

That said, those of us that are still learning and haven't practiced it quite as much take a tad longer.  I expect, before long, to be able to match his speed but I'm not there yet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas 

 

It's two inches, and those two inches matter when you're only ten feet away. Good putters feel they can start the ball online within an inch at ten feet.

 

Using the entire hole you only have 0.549° to make the putt. Shift your aim two inches farther sideways and you've now got half as much margin of error (and it's all to one side).

 

http://thesandtrap.com/b/the_numbers_game/angles_of_error

I agree, two inches off in ten feet means you'll probably miss the putt. But even using a chart, unless you are spot on in determining the actual slope and the speed on each green, you won't have the absolute correct starting line.  The putt may still go in, however. And for sure you will make a more confident stroke.

I guess what I'm saying is you must judge each and every green's speed.  By the time you reach hole 16, say, the green which rolled at a 10 at noon may now be rolling at an 8. Unless you are aware of that, you'll be off by those two inches on your ten foot putt. Likewise for slope.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harmonious 

I guess what I'm saying is you must judge each and every green's speed.  By the time you reach hole 16, say, the green which rolled at a 10 at noon may now be rolling at an 8. Unless you are aware of that, you'll be off by those two inches on your ten foot putt. Likewise for slope.

Absolutely. The charts are "fluid." You almost never have exactly 10 feet on exactly 90° to an unchanging slope that's exactly 2% on a green stimping at exactly 10, so the numbers are in practice really good approximations.

But again, a particular putt will break about 17 inches, not 7, and that's where AimPoint shines. :) I was always a good greens reader and putter, but even I've gotten better on some putts with AimPoint.

^ exactly what Erik said. 

I haven't used my chart in a long time -- and I pay the price dearly when I misread something. Aimpoint can be the difference in missing a putt 5 feet to the left on a big slope, and missing it by only two feet. 

But, there are things to take away from AimPoint without using the charts. I read greens and slopes with my feet now. This is a really useful tool that a lot of non-AimPointers, who are also good putters, use too.

I need to AimPoint more though -- I have the charts and the bubble and all the tools necessary to be able to practice it. Its easy to forget to use it. For me, anyway.

I do sympathize with others who say they'd be nervous or feel odd AimPointing in a foursome of strangers. For me, it takes a lot of practice with it getting familiar with the system and getting the read in a timely fashion. This is much easier to accomplish alone, on a fairly empty course. Just like anything in golf, you have to practice it a lot. The biggest variation in skill when it comes to AimPoint is the ability to sense slope variations with your feet. Correct me if I'm wrong here, fellow AimPointers.

In the leagues i play in i have a few players who i hear say, "I just don't know," or "I can't believe it broke that much," or, "I can't believe it broke that way"

I get shocked by this because it just doesn't happen much to me. But if Aimpoint can get these people to trust in the line they are seeing, then i think it will free up a ton of uncertainty in there putting, and put a lot more focus on there stroke. Also in how to aim the putter face, meaning not aiming at the apex. The benefit of a system like aimpoint is that it puts theory into practical application, that some people just don't get from personal experience. 

Originally Posted by JetFan1983 

I do sympathize with others who say they'd be nervous or feel odd AimPointing in a foursome of strangers. 

I don't mind using the chart at all.  I'm actually surprised that I don't get more funny looks or questions.  I think someone asked me once, that's it.  But most of the work doesn't require the book.  I figure out my numbers with my book in my pocket, then just pull it out for a quick peek.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by saevel25 

But if Aimpoint can get these people to trust in the line they are seeing, then i think it will free up a ton of uncertainty in there putting, and put a lot more focus on there stroke. 

Funny, it does the opposite sometimes, too.  I occasionally see one thing, but feel something else with my feet.  That kills me sometimes.  My feet area always right though. 

that's something i need to learn more, i don't feel much when i walk around a green. 

I have never been asked by anyone I've played with except a very close friend who knew I took the course.  I usually check the chart when others are putting, just a quick glance.

I have also been burned when the chart said, 8" break but my eyes second guessed it.  Trust the chart and your feet.  Green designers put in optical illusions to trick your eyes. Even a MUNI courses.

As for stimp, we know the practice green is not really like the real greens.  We asked this question at the training course. What I do (as taught by my instructor) is analyze the first putt.  If it broke more or less than you thought, you adjust the stimp estimate and work from there.

Your not going to make every 20 footer with AimPoint.  There are just too many subtle variables.  But as JETFAN said, your misses are a lot closer, so 3 putting from longer distance is happening less.