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Solving Slow Play: A New Pace of Play Program You can Support in 2013 - Page 7

post #109 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullitt5339 View Post


That may be the crappiest statement I've seen on here.  Why should a single player get shorted a hole that he paid for because he's by himself and faster than a group if the course is wide open in front of the group?  If the course is packed, I'd agree, but if there's a hole open in front of the group, a single should always get to play through.  

 

You must not play as a single much, because there's nothing worse than standing in the middle of the fairway watching four guys in carts hack it up in front of you and not even acknowledge your presence because you're a walking single.  The old days of "Singles have no standing on the course" are over, even the PGA has acknowledged that.

 

But I am against sending singles out during peak times when the course is busy.  They should be joined into groups during that time.  But a guy trying to get in some exercise and walk 9 holes on a Tuesday evening before the course closes?  Let him play through, after his first shot, you won't even see him again.

 If a person wants to walk late in the day and get some exercise, what does it matter what 9 holes he plays? Play around them.  

I play as a single a lot in those circumstances and, if there are openings on the course, that is where I go. I don't want to be playing through multiple groups any more than they want to stand around waiting for me to play through, especially late in the day when they may be trying to finish 18 holes. It's a matter of courtesy and convenience.

I also hook up with other singles and make groups when possible to make it more easy and convenient to keep pace with the rest of the course. Our head of outside operations knows where all the singles are on the course at any given time and tries to get them to play together. 

post #110 of 162
Bottom line is, any foursome that doesn't want to let a single play thru when there is nobody else in front is a bunch of douchebags.
post #111 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post

I think people there take the game a little more serious and understand that pace of play is an integral part of the game. There are too many people here who look at golf as a social exercise. This has be exacerbated by carts, so people can hang out together, carry lots of beer, etc. If they were walking they would be more intent on getting to their ball and hitting their next shot. Carts definitely slow down the game.

carts do not slow down the game - people that do not know how to use them slow down the game

post #112 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

So the answer to my question is no. :)

 

I think people could get people to play just as quickly here as I don't think the format changes the time appreciably, especially when we're just talking about playing in four hours.

 

Undoubtedly I believe they play faster, but I don't attribute much of it to the format - rather to their general mindset of not being jerks to the hundred or so golfers behind them.

At our club which is a pretty standard English club the only time we will play stroke play is if the comp of the day is a medal, we'll play stableford pretty much the rest of the time, apart from the knock-out comps which will all be matchplay. The singles comp of the day break down 50:50 medal & stableford.

 

Stableford speeds things up a little, you will get told to "pick it up" if you can't score, but its not huge difference.

 

The main reason, I think, for faster golf in Scotland is course lay out, tees can be very close to the last green, to the point where you wonder whether you should be hitting your approach before the previous group have left the tee. Some of the tees on the Old Course look like they are part of the green. This significantly cuts down the time between holes.

post #113 of 162

I have a hard time believing every other group is a foursome and then this single shows up.  There are frequently 3 somes.  Or, if he's a better player, maybe join him into a fivesome.  That opens options for playing wolf or better skins games.  But to say "there are no non-foursome groups" is kind of a stretch I'd guess.  We had a group of 15 that regularly played three 5-somes.  Almost everyone was single-digit hcp.  We played wolf, skins, and teams (two best balls in each group for team score).  Fun, and we didn't hold up any other groups.  But if a single comes out late Saturday morning, IF there was even a way to let him off, he'd have to expect a full field and not to play through.
 

post #114 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post

 If a person wants to walk late in the day and get some exercise, what does it matter what 9 holes he plays? Play around them.  

I play as a single a lot in those circumstances and, if there are openings on the course, that is where I go. I don't want to be playing through multiple groups any more than they want to stand around waiting for me to play through, especially late in the day when they may be trying to finish 18 holes. It's a matter of courtesy and convenience.

I also hook up with other singles and make groups when possible to make it more easy and convenient to keep pace with the rest of the course. Our head of outside operations knows where all the singles are on the course at any given time and tries to get them to play together. 


Well, technically, it does matter which 9 holes he plays.  If he's just out for a stroll, then maybe not.  But for handicap purposes, he's supposed to play the holes, in the order they are laid out, and to which his handicap is established.  The slope and rating are for specific 9s or loops or combinations...not just any 9 holes you play.  That's also why you don't go around.  You should play through.  And if you're walking, even more to the point.  What?  Are you going to walk down the cart path in front of a group while they wait for you to clear so they don't hit you?  Why not play up?  There's no reason to not let a single come up, putt out first, and move on (assuming there's room in front of them).

post #115 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by meenman View Post

carts do not slow down the game - people that do not know how to use them slow down the game

That is true, however, Phan isn't wrong either.  If those people who didn't know how to use the carts properly were not given the option (i.e. if carts didn't exist) then he's right.  Guys aren't going to walk across the fairway back and forth waiting at other peoples balls.

 

Therefore, you could say, that carts (especially on walkable courses that require them - or at least include them in the greens fee price) slow down the game.

post #116 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirkduffer View Post

I have a hard time believing every other group is a foursome and then this single shows up.  There are frequently 3 somes.  Or, if he's a better player, maybe join him into a fivesome.  That opens options for playing wolf or better skins games.  But to say "there are no non-foursome groups" is kind of a stretch I'd guess.  We had a group of 15 that regularly played three 5-somes.  Almost everyone was single-digit hcp.  We played wolf, skins, and teams (two best balls in each group for team score).  Fun, and we didn't hold up any other groups.  But if a single comes out late Saturday morning, IF there was even a way to let him off, he'd have to expect a full field and not to play through.
 

 

Hate to pop your bubble, but that situation is very possible.  I worked as a starter for 5 years, and there were days when I had nothing but foursomes for 3 hours or more.  And most golf courses won't allow anything more than 4 in a group, so on a well run course that isn't even an option (You want to slow down the course to a crawl, put out a bunch of fivesomes  d2_doh.gif ).  

 

As I posted earlier, it happened occasionally that a foursome would cancel an hour or less before their starting time, and I had nothing but one solo golfer to put in that spot.  I naturally tried to pair him up in some way, but there were times when it just didn't happen.  If he still wanted to go, then off he went with the proviso that he wasn't going to have an opportunity to play through, he was just going to have to wait.

post #117 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

Hate to pop your bubble, but that situation is very possible.  I worked as a starter for 5 years, and there were days when I had nothing but foursomes for 3 hours or more.  And most golf courses won't allow anything more than 4 in a group, so on a well run course that isn't even an option (You want to slow down the course to a crawl, put out a bunch of fivesomes  d2_doh.gif ).

Welcome to muni golf here in Socal. c4_mad.gif

 

Some people don't mind it, others like me think "well, maybe today I'll get lucky and it won't be so bad" and head out to play a 5 hour (or more) round.  That's why I'm usually willing to pay to play the more upscale courses.

post #118 of 162
Quote:

 

Quote:
I think people there take the game a little more serious and understand that pace of play is an integral part of the game. There are too many people here who look at golf as a social exercise. This has be exacerbated by carts, so people can hang out together, carry lots of beer, etc. If they were walking they would be more intent on getting to their ball and hitting their next shot. Carts definitely slow down the game.

 

Originally Posted by meenman View Post

carts do not slow down the game - people that do not know how to use them slow down the game

Well then apparently nobody knows how to use them. We have gathered empirical evidence at our club over the years that rounds with carts take longer than rounds by walkers. It is just a fact.

post #119 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirkduffer View Post


Well, technically, it does matter which 9 holes he plays.  If he's just out for a stroll, then maybe not.  But for handicap purposes, he's supposed to play the holes, in the order they are laid out, and to which his handicap is established.  The slope and rating are for specific 9s or loops or combinations...not just any 9 holes you play.  That's also why you don't go around.  You should play through.  And if you're walking, even more to the point.  What?  Are you going to walk down the cart path in front of a group while they wait for you to clear so they don't hit you?  Why not play up?  There's no reason to not let a single come up, putt out first, and move on (assuming there's room in front of them).

If I am playing by myself late in the day I am usually hitting a couple of drives, hitting the occasional shot over again and I have never posted a score for handicap purposes under those conditions, as I shouldn't. I find the open spots or, better yet, I try to find a group that I can join to keep pace with the rest of the course. There are always twosomes or threesomes out there and our head of outside operations usually knows where they are. Groups are welcome to let singles play through them, and many do, but we have made a determination that singles do not have any right of way and that works at our place. Everybody understands it.

BTW, I play at a very competitive club where there is a lot of peer review, and the cards that everybody wants to look at first are the guys posting scores after playing 9 holes by themselves or with their kids.

post #120 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

Welcome to muni golf here in Socal. c4_mad.gif

 

Some people don't mind it, others like me think "well, maybe today I'll get lucky and it won't be so bad" and head out to play a 5 hour (or more) round.  That's why I'm usually willing to pay to play the more upscale courses.


I concede.  You're right.  I played a couple of public courses years ago and it was jammed packed...and mostly with hackers who had no clue.  You couldn't play through anyway.  5 hour rounds were the norm apparently.  I told the starter when I went off at 4p (sunset at 7), I should have no problem finishing as I normally play 1 1/2-2hr rounds.  Ended at dark with 3 holes to play.  I guess muni/public courses have a different tempo.  Private/semi-private was a different experience.  I played 20 rounds/month usually and can't see how I could have done that on a muni/public.

post #121 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post

Well then apparently nobody knows how to use them. We have gathered empirical evidence at our club over the years that rounds with carts take longer than rounds by walkers. It is just a fact.

It may be a fact at your club, but that does not make it a fact everywhere. There are dopes that walk too.

 

I dont know about your club, but many only allow walking when it is dead - so the cart number would be pumped up on a jammed curse, while walking on an empty course would shrink the time.

 

One advantage a walker has is that they can head to their own ball and dont have to help others find theirs - which will save time because one can lose their ball after searching for another errant shot. But if a walker is not a little liberal with their provisional shots - they are either a cheater or a turtle.

 

I would put 2 walkers against me and my normal cart partners and the walkers will never finish faster - we know how to use a cart (and usually we are trying to try to make up for the 2 turtles we play with)

 

At the same time, 2 walkers wouldnt finish faster than my 2 slow friends at most of the courses around here. It's not only the fact that the walk from tee to green is often longer than the length of the hole - its having to walk around the forced carries (streams that run the width of the hole)

 

Fact is, in many areas, courses were not built for walkers - i tend to believe that carts are there to generate revenue and around here, the restrictions walkers face (and the course mentality that they are nothing but cheapskates) would make any die hard walker give up the game.

 

Bottom line is the few courses I have played that let people walk all day long - drivers are waiting on walkers as much as walkers wait on carts - slow is slow.

post #122 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post

Quote:

 

Quote:
I think people there take the game a little more serious and understand that pace of play is an integral part of the game. There are too many people here who look at golf as a social exercise. This has be exacerbated by carts, so people can hang out together, carry lots of beer, etc. If they were walking they would be more intent on getting to their ball and hitting their next shot. Carts definitely slow down the game.

 

Originally Posted by meenman View Post

carts do not slow down the game - people that do not know how to use them slow down the game

Well then apparently nobody knows how to use them. We have gathered empirical evidence at our club over the years that rounds with carts take longer than rounds by walkers. It is just a fact.

 

Your private club is not typical of golf across the US either.   It's a different mindset from a well run public course.  I've played a few private courses and never yet seen anyone out on the course encouraging a good pace of play.  They don't want to piss off members who pay a lot of money to play there.  Even upscale public and resort courses have employees whose sole job is to keep things flowing, no matter if they are walking or riding.  

 

I'm not arguing that there aren't cart users out there who are idiots, but all else being equal, a foursome in carts who know how to properly use them will leave a foursome of walkers in their dust.  The difference in travel time alone is significant - 15 or so mph for a cart vs. 4 mph for a fast walker.  

post #123 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

 

I'm not arguing that there aren't cart users out there who are idiots, but all else being equal, a foursome in carts who know how to properly use them will leave a foursome of walkers in their dust.  The difference in travel time alone is significant - 15 or so mph for a cart vs. 4 mph for a fast walker.  

 

 

i think the point is, at least where i am from, and the many public courses that i frequent in my area, hardly ANY of the golfers using carts actually have a clue about how to strategically use a cart.  they are complete doofuses.  or is the plural of doofus "doofii"?

post #124 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post

Well then apparently nobody knows how to use them. We have gathered empirical evidence at our club over the years that rounds with carts take longer than rounds by walkers. It is just a fact.

There are courses around here where there is a gap of over 1/2 mile between holes. Sometimes it's a 2 minute golf cart ride to go between the last green and the next tee. There is a ZERO percent chance that walking is faster than riding a cart. It's just not the case.

If there are players who are playing more slowly with a cart than they are as walking, they are clearly just goofing off. If you park your cart in the correct areas, ans enter and exit the fairway where indicated, taking a cart is much faster.
post #125 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyrtleBeachGolf View Post


There are courses around here where there is a gap of over 1/2 mile between holes. Sometimes it's a 2 minute golf cart ride to go between the last green and the next tee. There is a ZERO percent chance that walking is faster than riding a cart. It's just not the case.

If there are players who are playing more slowly with a cart than they are as walking, they are clearly just goofing off. If you park your cart in the correct areas, ans enter and exit the fairway where indicated, taking a cart is much faster.


I think you just made the point that it depends on course layout.  When my hurt my back and could not walk, I rode a cart playing with my normal group who walk.  On my home course, which is very walker friendly, it became apparent that the only time it was faster riding in the cart was getting to my tee shot.  After that, there was no difference, or because of the routing of the cart paths, they (the walkers) would actually get to the green before me.  You can walk straight to the green, but my course doesn't allow carts to get near the greens.  So in the end, I didn't see any significant change in pace of play, if anything, it reinforced that a group of walkers can play as fast or faster than a group in carts because of the direct routes they can take on a walker friendly course.  If there were two people in the cart, it likely would have been a bit slower.

 

But I agree, as a frequent Myrtle Beach player that the majority of the courses down there are setup in a way that makes it unreasonable to walk.

post #126 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

 

Your private club is not typical of golf across the US either.   It's a different mindset from a well run public course.  I've played a few private courses and never yet seen anyone out on the course encouraging a good pace of play.  They don't want to piss off members who pay a lot of money to play there.  Even upscale public and resort courses have employees whose sole job is to keep things flowing, no matter if they are walking or riding.  

 

I'm not arguing that there aren't cart users out there who are idiots, but all else being equal, a foursome in carts who know how to properly use them will leave a foursome of walkers in their dust.  The difference in travel time alone is significant - 15 or so mph for a cart vs. 4 mph for a fast walker.  

That is one of the more ridiculous statements I have read on this board. I play 95% of my golf on private courses and pace of play is am imperative at every single one of them. It is one of the main reasons people pay the dues in the first place. Most want play to be around 4 hours and anything over 4:15 is unacceptable. Golf committees rule these places, not the whims of the golf staff. They will penalize and restrict players who are multiple offenders.

 

And BTW, most walkers go right to their ball and are ready to hit when it is their turn. Players in carts have to deal with the whims of the driver. I go crazy when I am in a cart (usually just in outings that take 5-6 hours to play) and my ball is closer, but the driver goes right to his ball without a thought. If I am not driving, I grab a handful of clubs and walk to my ball. I''ll get there faster.

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