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Solving Slow Play: A New Pace of Play Program You can Support in 2013 - Page 9

post #145 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirkduffer View Post

 

If that's one of the more ridiculous statements, then you must be new to this board.  I agree with the other poster.  Depending on the club, many clubs are EXACTLY as he described.  They don't want to piss off certain members.  Perhaps a member is also on the board.  Or perhaps they bring a lot of clients to the club or have $5,000 dining/drink bills each month.  I've seen an occasional marshal mention pace of play to a member and the member went off on the marshal talking about how he's embarrassing him in front of his wife.  A few hours later, the member was in the pro shop ripping the pro a new one.  Still fuming about how he pays his dues like everyone else and he's not going to be told how to play his game.  It DEFINITELY happens.  Hell, I was on the golf committee and we couldn't even get those members to agree on pace and protocol. 
 

I've been a member of my club for over thirty years and I know of one instance of that happening, and the guy was suspended.  I also regularly play at a lot at other private clubs in my area and the membership is always respectful. As opposed to what you say, I have noted that they don't want to make fools of themselves in front of their guests by berating the staff.

 

Apparently your golf committee doesn't count for much. If you don't back up the staff, you can't empower them to do anything. Our staff is both respectful and respected. And if the membership doesn't want to follow the rules, they can go elsewhere and they won't be missed. A-holes need not apply.

post #146 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post

That is one of the more ridiculous statements I have read on this board. I play 95% of my golf on private courses and pace of play is am imperative at every single one of them. It is one of the main reasons people pay the dues in the first place. Most want play to be around 4 hours and anything over 4:15 is unacceptable. Golf committees rule these places, not the whims of the golf staff. They will penalize and restrict players who are multiple offenders.

 

And BTW, most walkers go right to their ball and are ready to hit when it is their turn. Players in carts have to deal with the whims of the driver. I go crazy when I am in a cart (usually just in outings that take 5-6 hours to play) and my ball is closer, but the driver goes right to his ball without a thought. If I am not driving, I grab a handful of clubs and walk to my ball. I''ll get there faster.

Yes, it is, but not because golfers at private clubs are faster players ... simply because there are less of them to get in the way.  You said above that your course has 350 members and 100 spouses.  Add in, for fun, 2 kids for EVERY member (pretty sure I'm being generous here) and a guest for every member every time he plays, and you, in effect have just over 1000 "members."

 

Every last one of those people would have to play almost twice a week for 12 months out of the year (95 rounds total each) to rival the crowds at a public course.  So either you are wrong about the crowds at your course, or you play at a club with the most diehard group of golfers ever.

 

My brother recently joined a CC that, I believe, has the same amount of members as your course, and that place is pretty busy on Sunday mornings, but otherwise it's pretty much wide open.  We can breeze through a round in under 4 hours because we never have to wait on anybody.  And we never wait on anybody not because they play good paced golf, but because they aren't there. :)

post #147 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

Yes, it is, but not because golfers at private clubs are faster players ... simply because there are less of them to get in the way.  You said above that your course has 350 members and 100 spouses.  Add in, for fun, 2 kids for EVERY member (pretty sure I'm being generous here) and a guest for every member every time he plays, and you, in effect have just over 1000 "members."

 

Every last one of those people would have to play almost twice a week for 12 months out of the year (95 rounds total each) to rival the crowds at a public course.  So either you are wrong about the crowds at your course, or you play at a club with the most diehard group of golfers ever.

 

My brother recently joined a CC that, I believe, has the same amount of members as your course, and that place is pretty busy on Sunday mornings, but otherwise it's pretty much wide open.  We can breeze through a round in under 4 hours because we never have to wait on anybody.  And we never wait on anybody not because they play good paced golf, but because they aren't there. :)

We don't have the backups public courses have because we manage the first tee differently and don't allow a group to tee off until the group in front reaches the green (par 4), which is, on the average, about 10 minutes. But we do have a very dedicated membership and, in-season, have group after group going off the tee at all hours. We have junior programs and women's programs that take up a lot of the weekday mornings, but every afternoon and weekend is packed.

 

But my issue with that poster was his assertion that private clubs allow their members to berate the staff and do as they please. That is a bunch of crap. There is no private club in my area that would put up with that.

post #148 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post

We don't have the backups public courses have because we manage the first tee differently and don't allow a group to tee off until the group in front reaches the green (par 4), which is, on the average, about 10 minutes. But we do have a very dedicated membership and, in-season, have group after group going off the tee at all hours. We have junior programs and women's programs that take up a lot of the weekday mornings, but every afternoon and weekend is packed.

 

But my issue with that poster was his assertion that private clubs allow their members to berate the staff and do as they please. That is a bunch of crap. There is no private club in my area that would put up with that.

I'm not a member of a private club so I don't have an opinion on the staff berating question (although I'd like to think most clubs are like yours).

 

But as far as the crowds, you said it yourself.  10 minute intervals.  If busy public courses could afford that, then slow play wouldn't be even remotely the problem that it is.

post #149 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

I'm not a member of a private club so I don't have an opinion on the staff berating question (although I'd like to think most clubs are like yours).

 

But as far as the crowds, you said it yourself.  10 minute intervals.  If busy public courses could afford that, then slow play wouldn't be even remotely the problem that it is.

Without awreness and implementation of rules, slow play would be a problem everywhere. But I think it is more the fact that most people who pony up the money to join a club are serious golfers. They almost all know the rules and are aware of what is going on around them. New members get in line pretty quickly with the culture. At least that's what I've found over the years.

post #150 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post

Without awreness and implementation of rules, slow play would be a problem everywhere. But I think it is more the fact that most people who pony up the money to join a club are serious golfers. They almost all know the rules and are aware of what is going on around them. New members get in line pretty quickly with the culture. At least that's what I've found over the years.

Actually, on second thought, I can't argue this. z6_surrender.gif I suspect you're right that the people who pony up for clubs are generally serious golfers.  And of those serious golfers, you are certainly going to have a higher concentration of people who know how to (and want to) play faster.

 

On the public course side of the spectrum, the same is true.  Those who want to pony up for an upscale course that can afford 10 minute tee time intervals are generally going to be from a similar crowd as your CC members ... serious golfers.

 

So if you have two different places:  One with mostly serious golfers AND nice intervals, and the other with hackers/beginners and 7 minute intervals, there really isn't a way to "prove" it's the spacing or the golfer that has the greater effect on the pace of play.  Certainly it's some of both.

 

And since there is virtually nothing good that can be done about the spacing (a bit of a catch-22 here anyway since a side effect of solving slow play is to bring in more golfers), then it's all on the players to do what they can.  And the courses/marshals do help with education and things like Play 240. :)

post #151 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post

Without awreness and implementation of rules, slow play would be a problem everywhere. But I think it is more the fact that most people who pony up the money to join a club are serious golfers. They almost all know the rules and are aware of what is going on around them. New members get in line pretty quickly with the culture. At least that's what I've found over the years.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

Actually, on second thought, I can't argue this. z6_surrender.gif I suspect you're right that the people who pony up for clubs are generally serious golfers.  And of those serious golfers, you are certainly going to have a higher concentration of people who know how to (and want to) play faster.

 

On the public course side of the spectrum, the same is true.  Those who want to pony up for an upscale course that can afford 10 minute tee time intervals are generally going to be from a similar crowd as your CC members ... serious golfers.

 

So if you have two different places:  One with mostly serious golfers AND nice intervals, and the other with hackers/beginners and 7 minute intervals, there really isn't a way to "prove" it's the spacing or the golfer that has the greater effect on the pace of play.  Certainly it's some of both.

 

And since there is virtually nothing good that can be done about the spacing (a bit of a catch-22 here anyway since a side effect of solving slow play is to bring in more golfers), then it's all on the players to do what they can.  And the courses/marshals do help with education and things like Play 240. :)

Guys .... I think seriously if the amount of time spent in shot prep was reduced (playing ready golf is a good start) I think pace of play would improve. I have seen folks take up to 8 minutes from the time they are within 2 ft of their ball until they hit their shot.
 

I was doing some nerd and completely amateurish numbers based on a 18 hole score of 92.... e5_innocent.gif Cart path, walking, or weather conditions aside, I took the tempo rating of 5.8 seconds and a 3 minute prep time for a shot... I came out with 4.75 hours for 18 holes of golf.

 

Ugggh!


Edited by tstrike34 - 2/6/13 at 10:30pm
post #152 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

Actually, on second thought, I can't argue this. z6_surrender.gif I suspect you're right that the people who pony up for clubs are generally serious golfers.  And of those serious golfers, you are certainly going to have a higher concentration of people who know how to (and want to) play faster.

On the public course side of the spectrum, the same is true.  Those who want to pony up for an upscale course that can afford 10 minute tee time intervals are generally going to be from a similar crowd as your CC members ... serious golfers.

So if you have two different places:  One with mostly serious golfers AND nice intervals, and the other with hackers/beginners and 7 minute intervals, there really isn't a way to "prove" it's the spacing or the golfer that has the greater effect on the pace of play.  Certainly it's some of both.

And since there is virtually nothing good that can be done about the spacing (a bit of a catch-22 here anyway since a side effect of solving slow play is to bring in more golfers), then it's all on the players to do what they can.  And the courses/marshals do help with education and things like Play 240. :)
I am not arguing the point that intervals make a lot of difference. You are right that staffs and rangers are up against it about pace of play on courses with short intervals. Frankly, if I were not a member of a private club, I would pay a little extra at the higher end public courses that consider the quality of the experience as much as the bottom line. Play 240 would go a long way in that regard.
post #153 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by tstrike34 View Post

I was doing some nerd and completely amateurish numbers based on a 18 hole score of 92.... e5_innocent.gifCart path, walking, or weather conditions aside, I took the tempo rating of 5.8 seconds and a 3 minute prep time for a shot... I came out with 4.75 hours for 18 holes of golf.

 

Ugggh!

What in the world could someone possibly do to prepare for a shot that would take 3 minutes?  Or am I missing something?

post #154 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback View Post

What in the world could someone possibly do to prepare for a shot that would take 3 minutes?  Or am I missing something?


Turtle... You would be amazed to see some of the stuff folks (more like the weekenders than the regulars) do on the course. You would swear they were at Augusta National.

post #155 of 162

My solution is EASY..........................play early!!!    Pretty simple.......LOL

post #156 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback View Post

What in the world could someone possibly do to prepare for a shot that would take 3 minutes?  Or am I missing something?

The cart pulls up to the passengers ball on the left side of the fairway.  Passenger gets out and walks over to ball and ranges pin.  Passenger walks back to cart and puts up range finder and begins to debate wind, elevation and other matters as they decide which club.  Finally select a club and walk back to ball.  2-3 practice swings and then finally address the ball.  Finally hit the ball and watch it roll to a stop.  Go back to cart, clean club.  Get sand and go back to ball  to fill divot.  Return to cart.  Driver then drives to his ball on other side of fairway but similar yardage and routine begins again for driver. 

 

How I play....driver pulls up to my ball.  I range pin from the cart because frankly the distance to the pin from the cart or my ball will be about the same.  I get out of cart, select my club since I've already assessed the wind from the tee, grab the sand and tell the driver to go to his ball.  I do my preshot routine, hit the ball, fill my divot and walk 30 yrds to the cart where the driver just finished hitting his ball. 

 

It's not rocket science but sadly, and on both private and public courses, I've been behind these type of players.  Very aggrevating.  They are living in their own little world out there and no one is going to take them out of their routine.  And their greenside play is equally as bad.

post #157 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by flintcreek6412 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback View Post

What in the world could someone possibly do to prepare for a shot that would take 3 minutes?  Or am I missing something?

The cart pulls up to the passengers ball on the left side of the fairway.  Passenger gets out and walks over to ball and ranges pin.  Passenger walks back to cart and puts up range finder and begins to debate wind, elevation and other matters as they decide which club.  Finally select a club and walk back to ball.  2-3 practice swings and then finally address the ball.  Finally hit the ball and watch it roll to a stop.  Go back to cart, clean club.  Get sand and go back to ball  to fill divot.  Return to cart.  Driver then drives to his ball on other side of fairway but similar yardage and routine begins again for driver. 

 

How I play....driver pulls up to my ball.  I range pin from the cart because frankly the distance to the pin from the cart or my ball will be about the same.  I get out of cart, select my club since I've already assessed the wind from the tee, grab the sand and tell the driver to go to his ball.  I do my preshot routine, hit the ball, fill my divot and walk 30 yrds to the cart where the driver just finished hitting his ball. 

 

It's not rocket science but sadly, and on both private and public courses, I've been behind these type of players.  Very aggrevating.  They are living in their own little world out there and no one is going to take them out of their routine.  And their greenside play is equally as bad.

 

Everything you have described still doesn't take 3 minutes per player, it only seems that way when you are standing on the tee waiting. d2_doh.gif  It's not the way to do it, but I'd bet that even with all of the fiddling around, he has still started his shot routine in under 2 minutes.

 

Of course, all of that efficiency is only pertinent if the group in front of them is also playing without delay, and the next group, and the next, etc., etc.  Your method is great in an ideal situation, but if the course is full, nothing you do is going to make the course ahead of you play any faster.   As long as there are no gaps, it doesn't matter if a player is slow, aside from the possibility that he is ingraining bad habits.  All that hurrying just means that you will be waiting longer on the next shot.  I think that this is why we so often see players on perennially slow courses who don't even make an effort - it just doesn't matter because there is no place to go anyway.  Then when they play a course where the pace should be faster, they don't know how to deal with it.

 

Another thing to consider which I haven't seen mentioned.  Just because Joe is the designated driver, that doesn't mean that he can't drive to his ball first, hop out and grab what he needs, then Mike slides over and drives across the fairway to his ball (or maybe Mike grabs a couple of clubs and his GPS and walks over to his ball).  It's a simple idea, but one that seems to escape notice for many people. 

post #158 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by tstrike34 View Post

Guys .... I think seriously if the amount of time spent in shot prep was reduced (playing ready golf is a good start) I think pace of play would improve. I have seen folks take up to 8 minutes from the time they are within 2 ft of their ball until they hit their shot.

 


Ugggh!

Oh come on! An 8 minute long pre-shot routine. No. No way. Not possible. You're exaggerating.

Go stand with a golf club in your hands over a ball and set a timer for 8 minutes. Then stand there and waggle until the timer goes off.

I bet you last 40 seconds before you give up.

No one takes 8 minutes in a pre-shot routine. No one.
post #159 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyrtleBeachGolf View Post


Oh come on! An 8 minute long pre-shot routine. No. No way. Not possible. You're exaggerating.

Go stand with a golf club in your hands over a ball and set a timer for 8 minutes. Then stand there and waggle until the timer goes off.

I bet you last 40 seconds before you give up.

No one takes 8 minutes in a pre-shot routine. No one.

It should take less than that for four people to play a short par 3.

post #160 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyrtleBeachGolf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstrike34 View Post

Guys .... I think seriously if the amount of time spent in shot prep was reduced (playing ready golf is a good start) I think pace of play would improve. I have seen folks take up to 8 minutes from the time they are within 2 ft of their ball until they hit their shot.

 


Ugggh!

Oh come on! An 8 minute long pre-shot routine. No. No way. Not possible. You're exaggerating.

Go stand with a golf club in your hands over a ball and set a timer for 8 minutes. Then stand there and waggle until the timer goes off.

I bet you last 40 seconds before you give up.

No one takes 8 minutes in a pre-shot routine. No one.

 

Not even Keegan Bradley as his most spastic, or Sergio when he was the "Waggle King". 

post #161 of 162

I've never experienced slow play due to excessive pre-shot routines. If anything it's the opposite. People whack the ball with little forethought to where they are hitting it. That combined with the inconsistencies of amatuer ball striking means balls flying all over the course. The time wasted is spent looking for errant shots. The resulting bad shot that follows because they attempt the hero shot to get it back in play. Rinse and repeat on the way to a 3 putt triple.

post #162 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave2512 View Post

I've never experienced slow play due to excessive pre-shot routines. If anything it's the opposite. People whack the ball with little forethought to where they are hitting it. That combined with the inconsistencies of amatuer ball striking means balls flying all over the course. The time wasted is spent looking for errant shots. The resulting bad shot that follows because they attempt the hero shot to get it back in play. Rinse and repeat on the way to a 3 putt triple.

This analysis is spot on.
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