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Solving Slow Play: A New Pace of Play Program You can Support in 2013 - Page 6

post #91 of 162

Slow people rule the world, they are in front of you when you drive, looking for their credit cards in the check out line, unorganized and unready at the bank teller window. So why are we nice to them, I don't know.

post #92 of 162

Take a look at Scottish golfing practices. They are notoriously time-efficient (some clubs recommend 3h 20m for 18) and take a dim view on a group holding up others.

post #93 of 162

A lot of that is not doing an apples to apples comparison. They play a lot more match play (i.e. you pick up on the green a lot or even from the fairway when you are shooting your 8  and can skip the last holes if the match is over) and the various alternate shot formats from what I have read. The also play less housing development courses and the ball tends not to fly as far (obviously this depends on where in the states you are playing. San Francisco coastal courses can give you the same short shorts).  I am sure you could take 4 scots to my private course, give them an empty course and they would struggle to get done in 3:20 walking.  The course isn't super long (6300 from the normal tees, 6500 from the tips) but between the hills, lots of OOB and blind landing shots which you have to make sure are clear before teeing off, and the 5 min walk between 5 of the holes( one would probably be closer to 10), it is not a fast course for walkers.

 

13 min scheduling per hole is crazy. Having only 1 group on the hole at a time is stupid.  It might provide the smoothest golf round but very few golfers want to pay 2x as much for that right (although it might be fun to try that. Charge 2.5x as much between 7-12am for the right to have half as many people on the course). On the other hand 6 hour rounds are crazy. It would be fun to see how those rounds come about. If you had the tracking on every cart (assume every group is on carts), is it the course is way over packed or are there just a couple of slow groups that jam everything up?

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by loki16 View Post

Take a look at Scottish golfing practices. They are notoriously time-efficient (some clubs recommend 3h 20m for 18) and take a dim view on a group holding up others.

post #94 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by x129 View Post

A lot of that is not doing an apples to apples comparison. They play a lot more match play (i.e. you pick up on the green a lot or even from the fairway when you are shooting your 8  and can skip the last holes if the match is over) and the various alternate shot formats from what I have read.

 

I think that's often cited but I think the vast majority of golf played in Scotland and Europe as a whole is probably stroke play these days.

 

When I played in Scotland our group was never hurried along because we played quickly, but other groups were. They don't mess around there - if you're out of position, you get a gentle push and then a not-so-gentle push and then more.

post #95 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by x129 View Post

A lot of that is not doing an apples to apples comparison. They play a lot more match play (i.e. you pick up on the green a lot or even from the fairway when you are shooting your 8  and can skip the last holes if the match is over) and the various alternate shot formats from what I have read.

 

I think that's often cited but I think the vast majority of golf played in Scotland and Europe as a whole is probably stroke play these days.

 

When I played in Scotland our group was never hurried along because we played quickly, but other groups were. They don't mess around there - if you're out of position, you get a gentle push and then a not-so-gentle push and then more.

 

They do play a lot more Stableford there than we do here, but that still isn't really much different from maxing your ESC and picking up.  Players just don't do it here. I've played with a few golfers (and I use the word guardedly) who take as much time on their 7th stroke as they did on the first, and I don't mean that they were that fast with the first.  These are the types who need to be educated, and they are often the ones who are hardest to reach because they don't even know that they are slow.  They don't usually hang out on golf websites, or they would already know that they have a problem.  These are the players that Play 240 is designed to reach out to right at the course.  I love the set of Rules they have put down, and it's true that if everyone played by those simple, seemingly common sense principles that golf in the US would be more pleasurable for all of us.

post #96 of 162

To the OP, is it still possible to get a copy of the rules of etiquette? I'd like to tape them to a few of my buddies golf bags. I filed the survey but perhaps too late?

post #97 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

They do play a lot more Stableford there than we do here, but that still isn't really much different from maxing your ESC and picking up.

 

Got any numbers to back that up, or just guessing? What's "a lot"?

 

At the end of the day I'm just saying that they have a different mentality over there - the courses expect people to play faster, and the players don't feel entitled to take so long and DO play faster.

post #98 of 162
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernest Jones View Post

To the OP, is it still possible to get a copy of the rules of etiquette? I'd like to tape them to a few of my buddies golf bags. I filed the survey but perhaps too late?


Ernest, If you provided an email then you should have received a copy.  You may want to check your spam folder.  In either case you can download a sample copy at the website www.play240golf.com  on the Etiquette Rules page.

 

Most important though is encouraging your golf course to participate. Send them a copy of the research results;

 

pacesurveychrts.pdf 1,011k .pdf file
post #99 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by lville lefty View Post


Ernest, If you provided an email then you should have received a copy.  You may want to check your spam folder.  In either case you can download a sample copy at the website www.play240golf.com  on the Etiquette Rules page.

 

Most important though is encouraging your golf course to participate. Send them a copy of the research results;

 

pacesurveychrts.pdf 1,011k .pdf file

They're currently all under about 3 feet of snow but when they reopen I'll see about spreading the information around.

post #100 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by tstrike34 View Post

I play ready golf. Now given that my tempo is too quick (working on that presently), I am always aware of pace of play. Folks pay their hard earned money to enjoy our beautiful game on our beautiful courses. I do not want to ruin someone's good time because I am being a hack-a-sarus.

 

At the same time, I wish folks would let us singles through. We can be out of your way in minutes and moving on to the next hole.
 

If there is foursome after foursome, sorry, a single is out of luck. Even if there is nobody in front, singles should go around instead of playing through. JMO.

post #101 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

They do play a lot more Stableford there than we do here, but that still isn't really much different from maxing your ESC and picking up.

 

Got any numbers to back that up, or just guessing? What's "a lot"?

 

At the end of the day I'm just saying that they have a different mentality over there - the courses expect people to play faster, and the players don't feel entitled to take so long and DO play faster.

 

I'll put it this way.  Most of the people I see posting on various forums from the UK talk about their weekly comp, and that is usually Stableford.  I bet if you polled US players, a majority couldn't even tell you what Stableford is.  I've never even played it in a pure form, always with a  modified point value.  I'm not saying that it is a major factor, but but when you reach a certain point value (typically a double bogey after any handicap strokes are applied), there is no longer any point in continuing because even if you take 12 more strokes to finish the hole your Stableford points don't go any lower.  Players used to Stableford play become used to faster rounds as a matter of course, regardless of the format.

post #102 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

I'll put it this way.  Most of the people I see posting on various forums from the UK talk about their weekly comp, and that is usually Stableford.  I bet if you polled US players, a majority couldn't even tell you what Stableford is.  I've never even played it in a pure form, always with a  modified point value.  I'm not saying that it is a major factor, but but when you reach a certain point value (typically a double bogey after any handicap strokes are applied), there is no longer any point in continuing because even if you take 12 more strokes to finish the hole your Stableford points don't go any lower.  Players used to Stableford play become used to faster rounds as a matter of course, regardless of the format.

 

So the answer to my question is no. :)

 

I think people could get people to play just as quickly here as I don't think the format changes the time appreciably, especially when we're just talking about playing in four hours.

 

Undoubtedly I believe they play faster, but I don't attribute much of it to the format - rather to their general mindset of not being jerks to the hundred or so golfers behind them.

post #103 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post

If there is foursome after foursome, sorry, a single is out of luck. Even if there is nobody in front, singles should go around instead of playing through. JMO.


Agree with the first part.  The second part is ridiculous, IMO.  If I am a single and I come up on a 3 or 4-some with clear sailing ahead of them they can have me hit to the green with them, let me putt out first, and by the time they are finishing putting out I am hitting my second shot on the next hole and they will never see me again.

post #104 of 162

That's a perfect play through method, but oddly enough, the people you usually need to play through don't know or respect that.  I think a lot does have to do with education (and a little with arrogance).  How many times have you been sitting 80-150 out and the foursome in front of you only has two on the green and the other two in a bunker or 20 yd chip to get on.  Perfect time to waive you up.  You hit.  They come up.  You putt (or come up...hopefully you're not lying 5 with another 2 or 3 to get on).  Putt out.  They might appreciate getting a read.  You're on to the next tee and they're still 4-5 minutes of putting to finish.  Unfortunately, if you gave this scenario from tee to green to MOST groups, they wouldn't really know when the best time to let you through would be.  So, unfortunately, they often don't.  To that extent, education would help.  Maybe have some cheap etiquette pamphlets on the carts.  Budding golfers always looking for the next time might just read it!  But to the arrogance part, I've come up on people MANY times where they are still teeing off when I get to the box.  They pretend like they don't see you.  Finish teeing off (wide open hole).  Then you stand there and stare at them for 10 minutes while they hit their next shot and help their buddy look for his hook into the treeline.  At our private course, kids are notorious for this (and some learn it from their parents [see my earlier post]) (although some of the younger kids (11-13 who pass a player test) seem to almost go overboard to be polite).  The high school golf team of spoiled country club brats and their hacker friends, you know, the same ones that don't respect cart path signs, tear up carts, don't repair pitch marks or sand divots, throw clubs, damage cups when putting flags back, ... you know who I'm talking about.  Education isn't the problem there.  Good marshaling is still required.  At one club I played, marshals didn't even say anything about pace.  They just gave you a paper that was essentially a traffic warning.  They gave them for any infractions (carts beyond the "carts exit here" signs, pace of play, etc).  Red paper was a warning.  Cart number was recorded.  Next offense and they asked you to leave.  Pretty stiff.  Probably started a lot of loud "discussions", but the rest of the field probably appreciated it.
 

post #105 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post

Even if there is nobody in front, singles should go around instead of playing through. JMO.


That may be the crappiest statement I've seen on here.  Why should a single player get shorted a hole that he paid for because he's by himself and faster than a group if the course is wide open in front of the group?  If the course is packed, I'd agree, but if there's a hole open in front of the group, a single should always get to play through.  

 

You must not play as a single much, because there's nothing worse than standing in the middle of the fairway watching four guys in carts hack it up in front of you and not even acknowledge your presence because you're a walking single.  The old days of "Singles have no standing on the course" are over, even the PGA has acknowledged that.

 

But I am against sending singles out during peak times when the course is busy.  They should be joined into groups during that time.  But a guy trying to get in some exercise and walk 9 holes on a Tuesday evening before the course closes?  Let him play through, after his first shot, you won't even see him again.

post #106 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullitt5339 View Post

 

But I am against sending singles out during peak times when the course is busy.  They should be joined into groups during that time.  But a guy trying to get in some exercise and walk 9 holes on a Tuesday evening before the course closes?  Let him play through, after his first shot, you won't even see him again.

 

What if there is no short handed group?  Believe me, I've worked plenty of weekends where a foursome would cancel an hour before their tee time, and in that case, the open time goes to the first taker.  If there is an open tee time and no short group to join him with, do you deny him the opportunity to play?  When I was working as a starter, I would explain the situation to him and let him make the decision.  That way he knew that he was going to be doing a lot of waiting, he wasn't going to be able to play through because the course was full, but if he still wanted to go out, then we were happy to take his money.  His choice - his decision.

post #107 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

 

What if there is no short handed group?  Believe me, I've worked plenty of weekends where a foursome would cancel an hour before their tee time, and in that case, the open time goes to the first taker.  If there is an open tee time and no short group to join him with, do you deny him the opportunity to play?  When I was working as a starter, I would explain the situation to him and let him make the decision.  That way he knew that he was going to be doing a lot of waiting, he wasn't going to be able to play through because the course was full, but if he still wanted to go out, then we were happy to take his money.  His choice - his decision.


I can appreciate that point of view.......  

post #108 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

Got any numbers to back that up, or just guessing? What's "a lot"?

 

At the end of the day I'm just saying that they have a different mentality over there - the courses expect people to play faster, and the players don't feel entitled to take so long and DO play faster.

I think people there take the game a little more serious and understand that pace of play is an integral part of the game. There are too many people here who look at golf as a social exercise. This has be exacerbated by carts, so people can hang out together, carry lots of beer, etc. If they were walking they would be more intent on getting to their ball and hitting their next shot. Carts definitely slow down the game.

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