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X handicap = ? putts per round - Page 2

post #19 of 55

That dave pelz chart

 

Pro - 29

Scratch - 33

10 hdcp - 34

20 hdcp - 35

30 hdcp - 38

 

This just goes to show you, if a pro is something like a +3 handicap, your looking at only 9 strokes given up on putting out of the 30+ strokes. That means, less than 1/3 is made up of putting. 

Put in the fact Pro's play on substantially better greens than we do, and faster greens rolls truer, and mean more putts made, its easy to see that putting doesn't account for that much. 

 

Given that pro's only get up an down 55-60% of the time, it can be seen that the major difference between pro's, and amateurs is ball striking, and the long game. 

 

But that equation above, 95-2*GIR is a pretty close, though i have had rounds were that didn't come close. 

post #20 of 55
im surprised that the numbers aren't lower. I avg 33.8, which I thought was bad. I keep saying I want to get to 32, but according to that chart, that would be better than scratch.
post #21 of 55

It makes sense to me. As quirky as putting is IMO it requires the least amount of skill relative to how far the ball travels. Less movement, rolling the ball vs. hitting it, a big miss is a matter of feet etc. More room for error with less consequences.

 

I just taught an employee how to putt a few weeks ago, a guy from Mexico that's never touched a club prior to that. We have the typical low pile office carpet and during our daily putting contest he was rolling 20-25 footers into the plastic hole here and there with horrid form. Some went way by but many were closer than I expected even on the first day we tried it.

post #22 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post

That dave pelz chart

 

Pro - 29

Scratch - 33

10 hdcp - 34

20 hdcp - 35

30 hdcp - 38

 

This just goes to show you, if a pro is something like a +3 handicap, your looking at only 9 strokes given up on putting out of the 30+ strokes. That means, less than 1/3 is made up of putting. 

Put in the fact Pro's play on substantially better greens than we do, and faster greens rolls truer, and mean more putts made, its easy to see that putting doesn't account for that much. 

 

Given that pro's only get up an down 55-60% of the time, it can be seen that the major difference between pro's, and amateurs is ball striking, and the long game. 

 

But that equation above, 95-2*GIR is a pretty close, though i have had rounds were that didn't come close. 


The total putts per round don't mean much unless you combine it with GIR's. If a pro player hit as many greens as the 30 handicapper (say 1 per round) his total number of putts would be around 25, assuming he 2-putted his one GIR and 1-putted 11 of the 17 greens he missed. That's 13 less than the 30 cap.

 

So while it's true the major difference is ball striking, having a great scoring game is far from insignificant. And it is something an amateur player of any level can aspire to. It's far easier to become proficient around and on the greens than to become a tour-quality ball striker.

post #23 of 55
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by boogielicious View Post

bjwestner,

 

I average 31.8 per round with best at 26 and worst (ugh) 41.  Your average is decent, but it shows where you can improve.  I worked a lot on putting and green reading (AimPoint) and it helped a lot.  If you work in short game practice with chipping, pitching and sand, you will see additional improvement.  My putts pre GIR is 2.0 and per missed GIR 1.7.  This shows I am getting it close with my short game, but still need work.

Thanks boogielicious......I found an article over the weekend that pointed out that the difference between a scratch golfer and a 20 handicap golfer is basically an average of 5 putts per round. 

http://recgolfer.blogspot.com/2011/06/how-well-should-you-putt.html

 

Lots of good feedback on this thread.  I'm only hitting 4-5 GIR per round so obviously that is an area of opportunity.  This weekend I had 38 putts on Saturday and Sunday.  The problem I am running into is that the greens are basically frozen, so my approach shots do not hold and end up going off the greens.  This lowers the GIR number and even when I chip/pitch on, because of the frozen greens, it's hard to get it close.  This also makes putting very hard with the rock hard greens.  When it warms up though, I am going to take a bit of a different look at my stats and what they mean.  It seems that golf magazines and such hype putting so much and while it is very important, it is nowhere near as close to importance as overall ball striking and other elements of the short game are (chipping, sand play, pitching).

 

I'm definitely going to have to start traking putts per GIR and putts per missed GIR to drill down into the data.  Thanks for all the excellent feedback/responses!

post #24 of 55

It snowed before I really got to play on frozen greens.  But a good strategy may be to hit short of the green and let it bounce on.  

 

My GIR is not great either and I am working on that.  But I had a whole bunch of 1 putts this year with short game pitch and chipping and even a few sand saves.  When you get to be almost automatic from 5 feet in, with practice, it helps keep the scores down.  Chipping to within 5 feet is fairly easy with practice too.

 

Funny thing is I have never broken 80 yet on a par 72.  But I got real consistent between 80 and 84 for most of my rounds.  With better GIR and drives (Driver weakest club), I hope to get better.

 

Best of luck.

post #25 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjwestner View Post

Thanks boogielicious......I found an article over the weekend that pointed out that the difference between a scratch golfer and a 20 handicap golfer is basically an average of 5 putts per round. 

http://recgolfer.blogspot.com/2011/06/how-well-should-you-putt.html

 

Lots of good feedback on this thread.  I'm only hitting 4-5 GIR per round so obviously that is an area of opportunity.  This weekend I had 38 putts on Saturday and Sunday.  The problem I am running into is that the greens are basically frozen, so my approach shots do not hold and end up going off the greens.  This lowers the GIR number and even when I chip/pitch on, because of the frozen greens, it's hard to get it close.  This also makes putting very hard with the rock hard greens.  When it warms up though, I am going to take a bit of a different look at my stats and what they mean.  It seems that golf magazines and such hype putting so much and while it is very important, it is nowhere near as close to importance as overall ball striking and other elements of the short game are (chipping, sand play, pitching).

 

I'm definitely going to have to start traking putts per GIR and putts per missed GIR to drill down into the data.  Thanks for all the excellent feedback/responses!

 

 

Remember that 29 putts with 14 GIRs is very different than 29 putts with 5 GIR.  I'm not saying its more important than ball striking, but if pros have  29 and you have 38, the difference is much more than a 9 strokes.  

 

I really don't think putts per GIR is a very good stat either.  Its better, but when I hit a lot of greens (a lot for me is like 6-7)  I end up with lots of 30-50 foot putts.   Better ball strikers are going to be much closer.  So just like like putts per round, putts per GIR is still influenced by ball striking.

 

As an illustration, the only time i've ever broken 80, I putted pretty well well.  I sunk 4 putts over 12 feet and didn't miss many, if any, inside 5.  I hit 9 greens and had a putts/GIR of 2.22, which looks terrible.  But I was also on average 38 feet from the pin on my GIRs. Even if my ball striking improves, it will likely mean more GIR and more long putts.    

 

To try to track my putting, I started writing down the distance of every putt on the scorecard.  After the round I put them into a spreadsheet.  Using those stats and comparing them to the 2011 PGA stats available online, I set goals for myself.  For example, pros made about 83% of 4-6 footers and I made about 67%.  So I set a goal of 75%.  Its simple during the round, but a bit of a PITA to put in all into a spreadsheet afterwards.

post #26 of 55

Probably the best way to track putting is by distance, just set some ranges, like 4-7', and say, i want to make 25% of them, not saying 25% is a good mark, just saying its probably a better way to judge putting. If you only 1 ball with in 4' during a round (chipping, pitching or full shot), then your probably not going to have that many one putts. 

 

For me, i am upset if i miss 4' and in. Unless its an absurd breaking putt, i pretty much make it. From there it gets a bit sketchy, but i try to make every putt. This whole, 3' circle is absurd in my opinion, i rather just have the lofty goal of making everything and go from there. 

post #27 of 55

PPR is a lousy statistic for this purpose.

 

Some golfers play on courses with smaller greens. And so on.

post #28 of 55
Thread Starter 

The biggest issue is getting it close to the pin.  Approach shots rarely get close, even if you hit it short of the green and let it roll on.  The greens are basically frozen.  During the warm weather they were fast (stimping at 11 to 11.5) and so when they are frozen the ball just does not stop.  Even chipping/pitching it close to the hole is hard.  This ends up leaving me usually with a very long first putt in most situations.  I'm either a really bad lag putter or it's looking that way because of the conditions.  I spend about 7+ hours a week on putting alone (during the week at home) and I am usually pretty good at shorter putts. 

 

I guess deep down I am looking for confidence.  I've played less than 70 rounds of golf in my life as I only started in June of 2012.  So much of my golf game at this point (as it probably would be for many out there) is confidence.  I know some people cannot play at all due to snow/etc., and while I am grateful that I have been able to play lately, it's also really discouraging and easy to slip into a mindset like I'm in right now, questioning if I am regressing?  Looking for statistics to possibly make myself feel better?

post #29 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beachcomber View Post

So my putting is closer to a 9 handicap. Oops guess I need to practice putting more?
I'm a 4.2 hdcp putting 1.8 per hole, which is 32/33 putts per rd.

Based on his avatar it looks like you and OP have the same putter.  Maybe its simply that you guys need new (Edel ;)) putters???

post #30 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

PPR is a lousy statistic for this purpose.

 

Some golfers play on courses with smaller greens. And so on.

 

I play semi-regularly with a guy who is a seasoned and accomplished amateur in So Cal.  He still plays all of the So Cal and Nor Cal senior amateur events, and he doesn't count putts.  Instead, he evaluates putting based on "number of feet made" in putts.  That is to say, if you combined the length of every putt made in a round (assuming 1' as the smallest measure), the aggregate total would determine whether or not you'd had a good day on the greens.

 

I agree with iacas that putts per round (PPR) is a really misleading stat. 

post #31 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by carrx View Post

I play semi-regularly with a guy who is a seasoned and accomplished amateur in So Cal.  He still plays all of the So Cal and Nor Cal senior amateur events, and he doesn't count putts.  Instead, he evaluates putting based on "number of feet made" in putts.  That is to say, if you combined the length of every putt made in a round (assuming 1' as the smallest measure), the aggregate total would determine whether or not you'd had a good day on the greens.

 

Scorecard (the software I developed) tracks that too, but the problem with that stat is that you can have days where you make a 50 footer and a 40 footer that are actually worse putting days than days where you make a lot more mid-length or shorter putts.

post #32 of 55

So i guess putting is just something subjective you have to feel out. 

 

I know what you mean, i played a round were i hit 6 GIR's, and shot a 79, because i got up and down 6-7 times during that round. So i really didn't have a good ball striking day, and i don't know if my putting was good because i was hitting really good short game shots to close distances. 

 

To me then i guess the best place to try out your putting is on the practice green. Just hit shots from marked out distances and see how you turn out. This way you can control what's going on, instead of just seeing one number after playing a round. 

post #33 of 55

Putting stats for a single round, or even 2 or 3 rounds, don't mean much.  But over a longer period of time, say 20 rounds, they are a pretty good way to compare oneself. For example, if you averaged 2.0 putts per GIR over 20 rounds, then averaged 1.8 putts per GIR over the next 20 rounds, I would say your putting improved.

 

Same goes with any golf stat. They only make sense over a longer period of time.

 

I'll judge my putting on a single round kind of holistically, by asking myself how many putts I should have made that I didn't. Were there any 4 or 5 footers that I missed?  Well, I should have made all of those. Did I 3-putt any holes?  If so, then I screwed up because I feel I should never 3-putt.  The 15 to 40 footers, I don't fret over missing those too much, unless I leave them dead on line but short.

post #34 of 55
Thread Starter 

Thanks for the feedback.  I completely agree that there is no perfect way to chart this data.  I'm kind of married to it at this point though.  Since I just started golfing in June of 2012 and have been keeping track ever since I started, it's nice to look and see what improvement if any at all there has been.  If I keep changing what I keep track of, there is no way to look back and analyze the data to make decisions on changes and such.

 

The other hard part to this is that I am not exactly a good golfer.  It's one thing if you are a scratch golfer or a pro, then there are tons of stats (like the ones that are on pgatour.com) that you can use to analyze all kinds of things.  It's harder to do that with someone like me that is a 15 handicap.  I can chart putts per GIR, but it's not going to tell me much because I do not hit that many GIR to begin with. 

 

What I've learned so far since starting this thread is as follows:  the higher your handicap is, the less important putting is versus ballstriking.  The lower your handicap is, the more important your putting is compared to ballstriking.

 

In other words, I can focus mainly on putting and get to a point where I am averaging just around 30 putts per round.  That's great and all, but if I cannot lower my strokes other than putts to well below 50 and nearing 40, I'm only going to get so good.....there's kind of like a ceiling. 

 

As I mentioned before, I keep track of strokes other than putts which tells me how my ball striking is.  A good round for me is 50 strokes other than putts (putts include putts from fringe and any stroke I use my putter with in the round).  Considering my handicap is 15, is 50 strokes other than putts in line with my handicap would you say?  Please post your handicap and an estimate as to how many strokes other than putts you have per round. 

post #35 of 55

If you have a smart phone you could get an app that tracks all this stuff.  I like oobgolf.  I think the app is free, and you can pay more (like $10) to track more detailed stats.  Then you can see your progression.  Oobgolf's GPS sucks though, don't bother with that.  

post #36 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjwestner View Post
The other hard part to this is that I am not exactly a good golfer.  It's one thing if you are a scratch golfer or a pro, then there are tons of stats (like the ones that are on pgatour.com) that you can use to analyze all kinds of things.  It's harder to do that with someone like me that is a 15 handicap.  I can chart putts per GIR, but it's not going to tell me much because I do not hit that many GIR to begin with. 

To me, the important stats to keep are:

 

1) % of fairways hit

2) GIR %

3) Up-and-down % (30 yards and in, since that is what PGA Tour uses)

4) Putts per GIR

 

The reason I think these are the important ones is that they measure each part of your game - your driving, your approach shots, your short game and your putting. There is overlap (a great putting day will also show as a good up-and-down %) but it's a good starting point. 

 

15 handicap is the time to start tracking your game. You're consistent enough that these stats start to matter.

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