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Is the Golf Equipment Business one big scam? - Page 5

post #73 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post

It may not be obvious to every golfer but I think most will agree the after market shaft is better than the one installed on mass produced drivers.  When you buy a shaft you want it's characteristics to be what's specified in terms of weight, flex, kick point and torque.  If the OEM shafts installed on drivers have looser tolerances then results can vary.  I've read numerous reviews where bundled driver shafts didn't perform close to their after market versions.  Will an after market shaft improve my score as a 20 handicap, not likely, which is why I don't spend $400 for an after market shaft

 

I know some people justify the price of a driver ($400) because they believe the installed shaft is the same as the aftermarket version they see selling for $400+ online and in golf stores and decide that the new driver is a better value and investment than buying a new after market shaft for their current driver.  In my mind that's not marketing, that's mis-representation.  They should append an "SE" or "L" on the bundled shafts to indicate there are differences between them and what you'd buy as a stand-alone shaft. 

 

Then you have guys like Robin Arthur (who put Grafalloy, AND the graphite shaft on the map) who come along and say "hey, y'all are getting screwed if you think that $400 shaft is worth $400!"

 

post #74 of 108

This is something that is very annoying in the Golf Industry.  Golf technology is very comparable to cell phone technology.  Although, they are ever changing and coming out with new technology every six months.  In the end, the cell phone still makes calls and the golf club still wacks balls.  If you choose to get caught up in which club is smoother, hits it further, etc. then you will drive yourself nuts.  I would say to find a club you like and stick with it for 2-3 years.  That is a good enough amount of time to let golf equipment really get better.

post #75 of 108

The main reason I switched to Ping.  Every 2 years Ping updates the line I play I20.  The g20 is 2 years old and now they have the g25's.  Every year Taylormade throws something new out and your trade in is worth nothing.  And personally I think Taylormade has lost their mind with the horrible paint scheme on their new stuff.  I could never stand over that new R1 and not get distracted.  I am sure that in May they will launch the R1s and stage 3 crappyballz.  

post #76 of 108

How far did the stock R11 blur fly versus the aftermarket one? That is the number that matters. The posts I have seen with direct comparisons show little to no difference (i.e. some guys hit the made for better some hit the real).  The only guys that I have seen that really benefit from the "Real" are the high swing speed guys. I am guessing the manufactors really wimp out their X+ shafts for ego  reasons.

 

Personally i think the systems works out well. Most guys get to buy "tour name" shafts are reasonable prices and the manufactors still get to overcharge for shafts to suck money out of the guys that are willing to pay a couple hundred bucks for "tour quality". Seems like a win-win situation. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullitt5339 View Post


The only input I have on this is that I got to watch a club builder intentionally crush a stock R11 Blur and an aftermarket Blur in a vice, and the stock one was obviously thinner material and crushed and splintered much easier than the aftermarket one.  How that translates into playability, I have no idea, but the construction of the aftermarket shaft was obviously better than the stock R11 Blur.

post #77 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by glock35ipsc View Post

Then you have guys like Robin Arthur (who put Grafalloy, AND the graphite shaft on the map) who come along and say "hey, y'all are getting screwed if you think that $400 shaft is worth $400!"

I enjoyed that video.
post #78 of 108

Great thread here.  The manufacturers need to move product every year.  They come out with the "latest and greatest" every year.  They make you think that by buying THIS years new technology you'll play better than last years technology.  How else are they supposed to move products?  Yet, when you look at who the club champion is or the person you just got paired up with who shoots a 65, I bet they don't have the latest and greatest.  Does new technology work?  Perhaps.  In the end it comes down to the player.  Same thing with skiing, tennis, etc.  Every year the ski companies come out with the newest skis that will make turning easier, better than last year!  How else are they supposed to move products?  My opinion, just find clubs you like whether you pick them up on eBay, last years models, whatever.  It ultimately comes down to the players.

post #79 of 108

I always find the faux-techno marketing termnology to be hilarious. Here's a sampling:

 

"Speed Pocket"

"Inverted Cone Technology"

"Speed Frame Face"

"Feel Management Technology"

"VFT Power Sytem"

"Custom Tuning Port"

"Stabilizing Bars"

 

I can just imagine the marketers sitting around trying to come up with stuff. "How about: Maximum Precision Velocity face?"  "Nah, I like: Induced Gravitational Launch."  "Wait, I got it: Rectified Inclusional Grain Flow!"

post #80 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by dak4n6 View Post

I always find the faux-techno marketing termnology to be hilarious. Here's a sampling:

 

"Speed Pocket"

"Inverted Cone Technology"

"Speed Frame Face"

"Feel Management Technology"

"VFT Power Sytem"

"Custom Tuning Port"

"Stabilizing Bars"

 

I can just imagine the marketers sitting around trying to come up with stuff. "How about: Maximum Precision Velocity face?"  "Nah, I like: Induced Gravitational Launch."  "Wait, I got it: Rectified Inclusional Grain Flow!"

Yes, it is comical.  Maybe they have one of those "Systematized Marketing Jargon" tools where you pick a word from one of three columns at random to make a new claim!

post #81 of 108

I bought a new set of irons, 4-AW, a week ago. I showed them to the teaching pro at the course I visit the most. Now Matt is a good golfer, many think he has what it takes to be successful on the PGA. I can't confirm that he would be, only what seasoned old golfers tell me, an old newbie. My new clubs have True Temper stainless steel uniflex stepless shafts, heads are cavity backed,, narrow sole, stainless steel very thin top line. They have great weight distribution and are good looking clubs, simple red and black metal medallions, no need for a lot of  poly/plastic inserts to absorb shock. They look good  in the  bag along side my Diablo Edge and Razr X clubs. When I told Matt I bought this new set for less than 50 bucks he was, to say the least, shocked! He wanted to know if they were still available. The clubs are a set of Ram FX Max Ten GI irons with an original price of 199. No enough people would pay that for set of Ram irons when you can buy a whole bag of other RAM clubs for 149. So Sports Authority put em on sale for 49 bucks. I bought two sets,  one for me and one for my son-in-law who loves them. I figured what could I loose at that price? I didn't figure on a local Pro being impressed with them as well. 

 

My point is...do good clubs have to cost an arm and a leg to be good? How much cost is for  the name and how much cost is for the "arrow?"

post #82 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by dak4n6 View Post

I can just imagine the marketers sitting around trying to come up with stuff. "How about: Maximum Precision Velocity face?"  "Nah, I like: Induced Gravitational Launch."  "Wait, I got it: Rectified Inclusional Grain Flow!"

I don't get it.  Why would you just give them these 3 great ideas like that ... for free?  They sound equally as legitimate as the actual phrases you posted above.  You should save a copy of this thread so when one of these pops up on a club in two years, you can prove they got it from you! c2_beer.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derrick Parker View Post

My point is...do good clubs have to cost an arm and a leg to be good? How much cost is for  the name and how much cost is for the "arrow?"

I agree with this.  Certainly the new Ping or Titleist, et. al. irons are not 2000% better than these Rams.  My guess would be that we are paying a little more for more precise manufacturing, a little more for better shaft/grip options, and a lot more for the name.

 

But we do it anyway, and we're going to keep doing it, because .... that's what we do. :)

post #83 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post

I think part of the myth is that the Aldila RIP,  (or any other shaft) that comes standard on a driver is the same as the after market Aldila RIP (or any other shaft).  I believe it's been pretty much proven that the shafts pre-installed on drivers have different characteristics from their after market versions.  

 

Pro's are most likely not using the pre-installed shafts but instead swap them out with after market shafts.  I've also read where pro's are using clubs that have shafts from one manufacturer painted to appear the same as a different manufacturer.  Pro's irons might be close to the same as what you can buy off the shelf but I believe their woods are very different from the stock versions we see in Golfsmith or Dicks. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

Not so sure about that.  I'm pretty sure I've read on here that the idea that the $400 after market is so much better and different than the "made for" original is also a myth.  I know a lot on here strongly believe so, I just think that is not the case.  But this is, admittedly, hearsay. (Is the written equivalent of hearsay "read-write?" ;)) 

 

I don't know one way or the other, just vaguely remember being witness to similar discussions on here in the past. :)

This is starting to change... for a long time the drivers you could buy off the shelf came with a "made for" version of the real shaft... Some were cheap in comparison to the real thing, some weren't. If I remember correctly, the "Made for Mizuno" Fubuki in the MP630 Driver got great feedback even though it wasn't quite the same as an aftermarket Fubuki shaft. However, looking at a lot of the new drivers that are coming out, they are no longer using these shafts... The Titleist 913D is coming with the option of 5 shafts, 4 of which are "real deal" aftermarket shafts. Callaway is offering two different stock offerings in the RAZR Fit Xtreme, both of which are the same as those available aftermarket.

 

It seems to me that people kind of caught on to the "made for" shaft thing and realized they weren't getting the real thing and companies have responded with the real thing, at least in their higher end lines.

post #84 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by tristanhilton85 View Post

This is starting to change... for a long time the drivers you could buy off the shelf came with a "made for" version of the real shaft... Some were cheap in comparison to the real thing, some weren't. If I remember correctly, the "Made for Mizuno" Fubuki in the MP630 Driver got great feedback even though it wasn't quite the same as an aftermarket Fubuki shaft. However, looking at a lot of the new drivers that are coming out, they are no longer using these shafts... The Titleist 913D is coming with the option of 5 shafts, 4 of which are "real deal" aftermarket shafts. Callaway is offering two different stock offerings in the RAZR Fit Xtreme, both of which are the same as those available aftermarket.

 

It seems to me that people kind of caught on to the "made for" shaft thing and realized they weren't getting the real thing and companies have responded with the real thing, at least in their higher end lines.

I wonder if a secondary effect of this might be that the after market shafts will become less expensive?  I mean, if they can afford to offer their $300 shafts in place of their $100 shafts on a $400 driver, and the driver remains at $400, then what does that say about the value of the after market shafts?

post #85 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Golf View Post

I have worked at a golf retail business for about two years (having left recently being it was my second job) and have put hundreds of golfers through swing simulators to compare distances, flight, etc, against their current drivers. I'll say this as simply as I can........NOT ONE TIME did the golfer pick up any additional yards. We used many OEM brands, newest and latest but NEVER did ONE golfer express to me nor did the results on the monitor show ANY DIFFERENCES! What did change was the feel and flight of the ball given the changes made to the driver clubhead (settings). Any claim by the companies for extra yardage was never evident in any test I performed. I would ALWAYS wait a year maybe year and a half to pick up a so called OLD driver at a huge reduction in price.....plus my discount. Ball flight corrections and head feel were the only two points that were ever noticed. Find the driver that gives you the desired ball flight with the correct shaft for your swing speed, etc and stick with it. You WILL NOT gain any yards with any other driver out there. Not that I've experienced anyway and I've seen them all right up to the latest offerings (2013). Good luck

 

doc


I've had the exact experience when tested several drivers while I was seeking for that elusive latest & newest driver that COULD give me that extra yardage.
So, I ended up keeping my TM Tour Burner 10.5* TP.
 

However, I've hit a few of the newest hybrids from TM-Rocketballz which went higher and farther than my Nickent Genex 3DX ironwood.
 

post #86 of 108

If that's true, the shaft manufacturers will have to revisit their pricing strategy as, over time, it will become cheaper to buy a driver with the shaft you want and pull it (assuming tip size is same) than it will be to buy the new shaft on it's own. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tristanhilton85 View Post

 

This is starting to change... for a long time the drivers you could buy off the shelf came with a "made for" version of the real shaft... Some were cheap in comparison to the real thing, some weren't. If I remember correctly, the "Made for Mizuno" Fubuki in the MP630 Driver got great feedback even though it wasn't quite the same as an aftermarket Fubuki shaft. However, looking at a lot of the new drivers that are coming out, they are no longer using these shafts... The Titleist 913D is coming with the option of 5 shafts, 4 of which are "real deal" aftermarket shafts. Callaway is offering two different stock offerings in the RAZR Fit Xtreme, both of which are the same as those available aftermarket.

 

It seems to me that people kind of caught on to the "made for" shaft thing and realized they weren't getting the real thing and companies have responded with the real thing, at least in their higher end lines.

post #87 of 108

Srixon/Cleveland has already started putting the same shafts in their woods, since they own Miyazaki.  There's been a rash of people buying last year's Srixon/Cleveland clubs now that they're cheap to pull the Dromos/C.Kua shafts to install them in heads that they like better, since it's cheaper to buy the entire driver than to buy just the shaft.

post #88 of 108

Get clubs that fit you, then stick with them. Constant change results in never being truly "used" to your equipment, producing constant doubt.  As Arnie Palmer said, there's no point practising with clubs other than your own.

They make wonderful clubs today, but you won't necessarily hit them as well as the ones you're used to.

It really is vital-----I still have a Tom Morris 1 iron made for me in 1964 in St. Andrews, still with the original stiff Accles and Pollock shaft and I have used it so often that even at my age of 71, I still hit it well, off the ground or a tee peg.  I've tried other 1 irons, and simply cannot hit them at all.

I remember Lee Trevino in the 1970s, with a John Letters bag, hood up so we couldn't see what clubs he used---but I sneaked a look, and they were NOT Letters clubs, but very old, partly rusty irons he obviously liked.  He certainly hit them superbly.

Advertising agencies make fortunes from persuading us to buy, buy, buy.........and so do the pros who endorse clubs!

It's amusing that used clubs are often in great condition, yet cost very little----and it's cheap to adapt them, with changes in lies, shafts, shaft lengths and grips, but the manufacturers don't want you to know this.

post #89 of 108
Thread Starter 

points well taken - thanks for posting them

post #90 of 108

As with any gear, whether it's sports, electronics, etc., I always wait about a year or two.  An example would be my current set of irons, Mizuno MP-52.  I believe they were $900 when they came out.  I bought them a few years later, still new, and paid $500.  Still not cheap, but I felt it was more along the lines of a fair price compared to the quality.  The MP-59 were $1,000 when they came out, and I saw them at a golf course late last Fall for $700.

 

Have you ever noticed in the golf magazines when they show what the pros are playing, that they all usually have at least one club that is 5 or more years old.  Like an old 3W head, and they just have an upgraded shaft.  Phil Mickelson played an old set of Ping Eye-2 irons after the groove change (until everyone on tour cried about it).

 

What irks me the most, is when the quality doesn't match the increase in price.  An example would be the newer Gibson Les Paul.  It's a piece of crap compared to 10 years ago, or older.  Or Fender amplifiers, they are not as good as they once were and do not use as high quality parts anymore.  You buy one, at a higher price, and basically have to upgrade all the factory parts.  I wouldn't buy a new amp, I have them custom built to exactly what I want and it winds up being about the same as buying a brand name one and upgrading it.

 

We as consumers buy into the marketing, or we don't.  As long as consumers are willing to pay the higher margins on the newest gear every year, the companies are going to take advantage of the situation.  Its human nature.  You would take an undeserved raise or bonus if your company offered it to you, right?  I wouldn't turn it down.

 

I think equipment can make a difference, but really, how good of a golfer are you?  For most of us, the money is better spent on lessons, or time at the range.

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