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Is the Golf Equipment Business one big scam? - Page 6

post #91 of 108

I know a Nike rep and he tells me that it doesn't matter the club you hit. They all go about the same. The ones you can adjust to tailor yourself are the ones you should get. The new Nike driver is underperforming to last years model. Just get a set that look good and feel good to you the only difference is maybe 5 yards. Doesn't even matter on drivers. You need to be a good iron player.

post #92 of 108

I think the one year cycles favored by some of the big club manufacturers may prove unsustainable over the long haul.  I mean how long will people pay $400 in February for something that will be $229 in October?  That this model works, is a testament to the fact that golfers have deep pockets and an almost infinite hope (albeit false in most cases) that the newest and greatest will lower scores.  Of course, until golf consumers vote with their wallet not much is likely to change.  Oh well, in 2015 my R3s driver will go 44 yards further-increasing the average 15 handicap driver carry to 297.4a2_wink.gif (please don't inquire about the science).

 

The original poster definitely raises a valid question though: is it a scam?  Well, the custom club maker guys would tell you it really is.  Of course everyone's trying to make a buck these daysf5_nono.gif.  They'd say that your club is made in a Chinese foundry, while the touring pro's is made in Japan and fitted with an aftermarket shaft.  Fine, of course, unless they're saying I can buy exactly what Dustin Johnson has in his bag this week.  The OEM vs aftermarket shaft situation is just ridiculous and unjustifiable: two different products labeled and marketed as same thing.  Who cares if I can't tell the difference?  In what other facet of consumer goods is this an acceptable practice?  

 

And the distance claims.....17 yards further...20 yards further? With all things it's really, what do you mean? Iron Byron or some dude, someday, downwind?  The North American golf consumer needs to become much more discerning and critical.  I personally can't tell the difference between a $150 and a $1000 bottle of wine, but I don't think this gives the vineyard the right to sell me the $150 bottle for $1000 (or label them as being the same thing).  Time for people to check out custom stuff and the Japanese industry.  Why are North American manufacturers representing an inferior shaft as a better/different product and labeling them as the same thing?  I know the next set I buy will be from a custom clubmaker offering heads from a real foundry and shafts with specs I can be sure of.  I'll spend more, but I can rest assured of the quality, not wondering if I need to buy the next 'hype machine' product.  Will it make me better?  Will I be able to tell the difference?  When it comes to consumer rights, it's really not the point.  And besides, why would I want to help those who profit from deception?

post #93 of 108
Thread Starter 

Well stated. Exactly the point of view that I had when I started this topic.
 

post #94 of 108

Well that's also kinda counter intuitive as well

 

Quote:
 I'll spend more, but I can rest assured of the quality, not wondering if I need to buy the next 'hype machine' product.  Will it make me better?  Will I be able to tell the difference?  When it comes to consumer rights, it's really not the point.

 

Is it consumer rights? Are they being deceptive? Is it really that big of a problem? 

 

I would say those who believe in outlandish claims, never heard or believe in the saying, "If its to good to be true, it usually is". They are the same people who get hit with scams, but is it a scam, not really. Cars do the same thing, "This vehicle gets 40 mpg on the highway", well is that actually driving on the highway through many conditions, or is that putting the car in a test lab and running it at 60 mph. 

 

So, every time someone comes out and says, "There deceiving us", i'll say, "Well ya, that's marketing". Diet Pepsi or Coke, taste as good as the real thing, Nope. 

 

Also, if you can't tell the difference, then why spend the money on a higher costing product? I rather just say, there claims are overexagerated, so what, this iron feels good, i hit it good, i'll buy it. That's all that matters to me. For me, its not the fact that marketing is always about some sort of deception, this isn't a bait and switch operation here. If your buying a club with out test driving it, that's your own fault. People need to start stepping up to there own responsibilities as a consumer, instead of being led around by the nose. Businesses have been using statistics, psychology, behavior science for years to manipulate consumers into buying products. 

post #95 of 108
"A fool and his money are soon parted." Golf club manufacturers' claims of added distance play on people's egos (most likely men) because they realize that we have a need to compare ourselves with others. They realize there's a percieved power with being the guy with the furthest walk down the fairway. Sure the extra yardage helps but most people aren't honest with what club/shaft is best for their game. Again; machoism. "I use the X-Stiff shaft" yet their swing speed isn't where it should be to warrant it. So they are either dillusional or they'll outright lie about what they're using or how far they're hitting it. It's the reason you see guys with 15+ handicaps claiming to AVERAGE distances akin to that of the Pros. Same with asthetics. Manufacturers from all industries realize people want something shiny and will pay for the latest greatest. I typically buy used Cars and Clubs. I recently scored some Mizuno MP-T11 wedges off of Ebay that are new but I only paid about $65/club shipped. That is a great deal for basically the same technology as this years. God bless the people that will buy the latest greatest as they save thousands of dollars for those of us with patience.
post #96 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Martin View Post

Seems to me that it wasn't too long ago that Taylor Made had a bunch of PGA professionals touting how great their latest clubs were.  But I'm glad I didn't rush out to get the latest equipment because today I'm watching TGC and see Dustin Johnson pushing yet another latest, greatest driver from Taylor Made.

 

phil had really been basically a walking, talking commercial for the new razr fit driver over this past weekend at the waste management open.  every time he opened his mouth it was some version of contrived praise for his new driver.  it reminded me of the movie truman show, where every 10 minutes the characters would incorporate advertising into their *real*, but fake, life.

 

anyway, another thing that gets me is that the clubs the pros play aren't even the same as the versions we play or at least can buy in the store.  the tour heads for drivers are usually much different, right?  uneducated players probably buy callaway and tout to their friends they use the same equipment as phil, when really that isn't entirely true at all.  irons are a different story.

 

i had been looking for a new driver for a while, finally used ebay and CL to my advantage and had a good shaft and adams fast 12 ls (both brand new) pured and assembled for less than $150 total.  that club with the stock shaft was $300 in the store, and my version fits me much better than any stock $3-400 club would have.

post #97 of 108

This is the flip side of the whole "growing the game" thing.  The vast majority of the ones who really are concerned with growing the game are the people whose stock requires a growing earnings per share figure to continue going up.  For this to happen they have to convince guys that they HAVE TO HAVE the latest and greatest.  But as a player I don't have to buy into their pitch.  No driver is going to make me hit the ball like Phil, nor is it likely to make me hit it much further than my current driver, which is several model years old.

post #98 of 108

If you guys get a chance check out this Tom Wishon article:

 

 http://www.golfwrx.com/57171/wishon-the-way-golf-clubs-are-being-sold-has-harmed-golf/

post #99 of 108
You really need to read Tom Wishon's books on searching for the perfect clubs.

It will enlighten and save you a fortune!

All the bulls**t that we are subjected to by the manufacturers and strangely non-critical magazines who show very little neutrality or unbiased opinion. Its as if the golfing press are acting as advertising agents.

I see fantastic claims of leaps in technology that are more akin to space travel or flight. I worked in a technological role in the aerospace industry for 32 years. Most of the language and words that I see being used to blind the ordinary guy in the street can be ignored.

There is very little else that can be done with club technology apart from perhaps the shafts that are fitted.

The heads have gone as far as they can go - the majority of claimed "advances" now are without doubt in my mind nothing but marketing gimmicks.

As I get older I know that my game will deteriorate to a certain extent. Having played off low figures for many years, I have to bite the bullet and admit to myself that maybe I can no longer get the best out of my blades - I have to change to something easier to play with to be able to continue to enjoy the game to the same or similar extent. But that is far as it goes.

There aren't any miracle clubs out there and there isn't going to be anything better than what is already available, apart as I say, from perhaps the shaft technology.

The only way that improvements can be made are in personal fitness and honesty - honesty with one's self.

Very few of us are ever going to be able to play the same equipment as the top pros, they are fitted out to the nth degree with what they use. The ordinary player like me and many others have to play with the best we can afford and cope with.
post #100 of 108

You're so right, socketeer.

I know a guy who heard that an advertised gizmo would give him 25% better mileage per gallon from his car, so he bought four !

There really is one born every minute.....

post #101 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socketeer View Post

You really need to read Tom Wishon's books on searching for the perfect clubs.

It will enlighten and save you a fortune!

All the bulls**t that we are subjected to by the manufacturers and strangely non-critical magazines who show very little neutrality or unbiased opinion. Its as if the golfing press are acting as advertising agents.

I see fantastic claims of leaps in technology that are more akin to space travel or flight. I worked in a technological role in the aerospace industry for 32 years. Most of the language and words that I see being used to blind the ordinary guy in the street can be ignored.

There is very little else that can be done with club technology apart from perhaps the shafts that are fitted.

The heads have gone as far as they can go - the majority of claimed "advances" now are without doubt in my mind nothing but marketing gimmicks.

As I get older I know that my game will deteriorate to a certain extent. Having played off low figures for many years, I have to bite the bullet and admit to myself that maybe I can no longer get the best out of my blades - I have to change to something easier to play with to be able to continue to enjoy the game to the same or similar extent. But that is far as it goes.

There aren't any miracle clubs out there and there isn't going to be anything better than what is already available, apart as I say, from perhaps the shaft technology.

The only way that improvements can be made are in personal fitness and honesty - honesty with one's self.

Very few of us are ever going to be able to play the same equipment as the top pros, they are fitted out to the nth degree with what they use. The ordinary player like me and many others have to play with the best we can afford and cope with.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CowtownGrindrrr View Post

If you guys get a chance check out this Tom Wishon article:

 

 http://www.golfwrx.com/57171/wishon-the-way-golf-clubs-are-being-sold-has-harmed-golf/

 You guys do realize the irony in that article? Wishon is criticizing golf club manufacturers for making claims and selling golf clubs and a few lines down he states that only a club fitter (which he happens to be) can get you the proper clubs which is another type of claim which serves to make you buy golf clubs from a professional fitter. There is little difference other than semantics from what he is arguing against and what he is proposing.  

post #102 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanuckAaron View Post

 

 

 You guys do realize the irony in that article? Wishon is criticizing golf club manufacturers for making claims and selling golf clubs and a few lines down he states that only a club fitter (which he happens to be) can get you the proper clubs which is another type of claim which serves to make you buy golf clubs from a professional fitter. There is little difference other than semantics from what he is arguing against and what he is proposing.  

CanuckAaron (not like Van City Canuckleheads, i hopez7_no.gif?!)  Wishon and many other clubmakers/fitters have spent a lifetime perfecting their craft, growing their knowledge and selling high quality equipment with real aftermarket shafts.  But because the guy is a capitalist you'll stick with the big 4 or 5, their mass produced heads (from inferior foundries) and their inferior OEM shafts?  I seeg1_wacko.gif.

post #103 of 108

Wishon likes to position himself as a consumer advocate for golfers but as CanuckAaron points he does so with his own self interest at heart.  If he didn't sell his own clubs he'd have more credibility but since he does, his word holds the same value as Taylor Made telling me their clubs are better than Nike. 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowtownGrindrrr View Post

CanuckAaron (not like Van City Canuckleheads, i hopez7_no.gif?!)  Wishon and many other clubmakers/fitters have spent a lifetime perfecting their craft, growing their knowledge and selling high quality equipment with real aftermarket shafts.  But because the guy is a capitalist you'll stick with the big 4 or 5, their mass produced heads (from inferior foundries) and their inferior OEM shafts?  I seeg1_wacko.gif.

post #104 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by CowtownGrindrrr View Post

CanuckAaron (not like Van City Canuckleheads, i hopez7_no.gif?!)  Wishon and many other clubmakers/fitters have spent a lifetime perfecting their craft, growing their knowledge and selling high quality equipment with real aftermarket shafts.  But because the guy is a capitalist you'll stick with the big 4 or 5, their mass produced heads (from inferior foundries) and their inferior OEM shafts?  I seeg1_wacko.gif.

     No I live a long way away from Vancouver. You missed my point entirely. I was not sticking with or up for anyone, I was pointing out that he was promoting the very same thing he was arguing against. You cannot chastise the industry because it makes claims about making people better golfers and then shortly there after state that your product will make the reader a better golfer, that is fallacious. 

 

   How do you know the foundries are inferior?  Or the shafts are inferior? Because a clubmaker who sells clubs tells you they are? If you are going to examine a topic objectively and critically, it has to include all of the relevant literature not just the part you do not agree with.

 

     Even if we forget the irony in his argument and consider what he is saying at face value I am not so sure that you can compare a custom set of clubs built by Wishon which I am betting will cost you anywhere from 1500-3000 dollars to something worth half of that, it is common sense that the tolerances for manufacturing will be greater, they have to be. 

 

For the record I am not saying that Wishon is wrong or that I don't agree with him but the irony of what he was saying needed to be pointed out. 

post #105 of 108
Have any of you chaps ever spoken with Tom?

I have, be it all by email.

My query was regarding the principles and claims behind the design of adjustable heads in the latest drivers, fairways and hybrids.

He didn't make any attempts to sell me anything but his advice was extremely useful and confirmed my thoughts completely.

I won't go into the details but suffice it to say the design is suspect. The amount of adjustability is so little the effects of the adjustments are negligible.

My opinion of Mr Wishon is that he is a man of integrity and as such I have high respect for him.
post #106 of 108

The golf equipment industry is not a scam - the retail industry is a scam

 

See Apple - minor tweaks each year not worth a fart in a windstorm - especially recently. And I stand by the fact the iPhone/iPad are pieces of good looking garbage

See Honda - minor tweaks each year to the Civic not worth a fart in a windstorm

 

List goes on

post #107 of 108

I never spoke to him, but read his booklets.  He might be a man of integrity but he's got a product to sell that competes against those whose practices he's critical of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socketeer View Post

Have any of you chaps ever spoken with Tom?

I have, be it all by email.

My query was regarding the principles and claims behind the design of adjustable heads in the latest drivers, fairways and hybrids.

He didn't make any attempts to sell me anything but his advice was extremely useful and confirmed my thoughts completely.

I won't go into the details but suffice it to say the design is suspect. The amount of adjustability is so little the effects of the adjustments are negligible.

My opinion of Mr Wishon is that he is a man of integrity and as such I have high respect for him.
post #108 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanuckAaron View Post

     No I live a long way away from Vancouver. You missed my point entirely. I was not sticking with or up for anyone, I was pointing out that he was promoting the very same thing he was arguing against. You cannot chastise the industry because it makes claims about making people better golfers and then shortly there after state that your product will make the reader a better golfer, that is fallacious. 

 

   How do you know the foundries are inferior?  Or the shafts are inferior? Because a clubmaker who sells clubs tells you they are? If you are going to examine a topic objectively and critically, it has to include all of the relevant literature not just the part you do not agree with.

 

     Even if we forget the irony in his argument and consider what he is saying at face value I am not so sure that you can compare a custom set of clubs built by Wishon which I am betting will cost you anywhere from 1500-3000 dollars to something worth half of that, it is common sense that the tolerances for manufacturing will be greater, they have to be. 

 

For the record I am not saying that Wishon is wrong or that I don't agree with him but the irony of what he was saying needed to be pointed out. 

Canuck, I have done my homework, and I'll let my $ speak in future purchases.  I understood your point completely-ironic though-not really (or mildly)?  It's not like it was written in the context of people not knowing he's in the biz.  Are his expertise and critiques invalid because he's in the biz? I don't think this fact discredits him from chiming in on the big companies, or that it's all that ironic-because it's blatantly obvious from the outset that there's a degree of self interest there (which is not an innately bad thing).  If one can't make a qualitative distinction between the business model of the better custom guys and the big manufacturers (and hence the product difference)-well.....it's your money my man.  BTW, where is he promoting himself, you make it sound like there are embedded links to Wishon Golfe3_rolleyes.gif!?  He's saying check out this part of the industry. I'd say this is far less manipulative than what we get from big hype machine.

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