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Phil's hinge and hold vs pelz short game bible

post #1 of 30
Thread Starter 
I'm about 3/4 of the way through pelz short game bible, and I like his 3x4 system and his ideas. Just bought Phil's videos haven't got them yet but watched a few teaser clips and it confuses me as to why he plays the ball in the front of his stance which encourages skulked shots does it not? Also has anyone read book and watched videos would you share with me any helpful hints?
It seems that with the ball in front of center it is more like a mini pitch shot whereas a mini chip would be either center or off back foot?
post #2 of 30

You can incorporate both into your game.

 

Phil's stance is narrow, so it's tough to state the location of the ball. I think it is in the middle of the stance, but either way, I had no problems with Phil's method - no skulling. You need your weight on the front foot throughout the swing, and slide and pivot the hips. But don't let your head or shoulders go backwards - tuck your butt as you slide and pivot.

post #3 of 30
Thread Starter 
I also saw in a couple of clips Phil changes where the swing bottoms out by moving his weight to front foot or equally on both feet while in the center. Is this referring to rough shots only, and on tight lies, do you find it easier hitting shots more upright with the toe more so than a square club face? Hope that didn't veer off topic too much
post #4 of 30
He changes where it bottoms out depending on the situation. Certain bunker shots he likes weight balanced, most weight forward.

And it seems more consistent off of a square club face than trying to toe it
post #5 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfjunky0331 View Post

I also saw in a couple of clips Phil changes where the swing bottoms out by moving his weight to front foot or equally on both feet while in the center. Is this referring to rough shots only, and on tight lies, do you find it easier hitting shots more upright with the toe more so than a square club face? Hope that didn't veer off topic too much

Depends on what you're trying to do with the ball.

 

If I remember, in the rough, if your weight is front, the club will mostly pass under the ball. He also has the shot where you contact the ground with the bounce - taking the energy out of the shot... 

 

He seems to like to open the face and then open the stance while the clubface closes until the clubface is aimed at the target 

 

Keep on watching the video...

post #6 of 30
Thread Starter 
Yeah I'm anxious to get the videos which I paid $20 eBay... Gd deal from clips I've seen so far.
One more question off a fairway gd lie or real short grass it's been said if you open the face a little it is easier to hit the ball, what is the logic there. Are you taking the bounce out by encouraging the leading edge to strike under the ball, Is he using the bounce when the club is square as opposed to being open?
post #7 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfjunky0331 View Post

Yeah I'm anxious to get the videos which I paid $20 eBay... Gd deal from clips I've seen so far.
One more question off a fairway gd lie or real short grass it's been said if you open the face a little it is easier to hit the ball, what is the logic there. Are you taking the bounce out by encouraging the leading edge to strike under the ball, Is he using the bounce when the club is square as opposed to being open?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by golfjunky0331 View Post

I'm about 3/4 of the way through pelz short game bible, and I like his 3x4 system and his ideas. Just bought Phil's videos haven't got them yet but watched a few teaser clips and it confuses me as to why he plays the ball in the front of his stance which encourages skulked shots does it not? Also has anyone read book and watched videos would you share with me any helpful hints?
It seems that with the ball in front of center it is more like a mini pitch shot whereas a mini chip would be either center or off back foot?

Idk about Pelz book yet but I feel Phil's videos are the best you can get. The ball is in the front of your stance but your feet are close and slight open. You will skull if you flip at all. The premise of hinge and hold is keeping your hands considerably in front of the ball. If you watch his videos you will get all the tips you need and do not need to worry about the "bounce". He covers a multitude of lies and conditions that require alterations in ball placement.

post #8 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfjunky0331 View Post

Yeah I'm anxious to get the videos which I paid $20 eBay... Gd deal from clips I've seen so far.
One more question off a fairway gd lie or real short grass it's been said if you open the face a little it is easier to hit the ball, what is the logic there. Are you taking the bounce out by encouraging the leading edge to strike under the ball, Is he using the bounce when the club is square as opposed to being open?

With the square face, you're using the designed bounce. When one opens the face and leaves it open, you are typically adding bounce unless the designer has designed the sole with heel, toe, or trailing edge relief, or a combo of such.

post #9 of 30
Thread Starter 
So off of a tight lie they recommend using the toe of the club is this in effect taking the bounce out of the equation and using the loft of the club face?
post #10 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfjunky0331 View Post

So off of a tight lie they recommend using the toe of the club is this in effect taking the bounce out of the equation and using the loft of the club face?

Are you talking Pelz?

 

That book is so old.

 

I hit wedges off very tight, drought lies with a square face. You need the right wedge for your swing. Look at Utley - he uses 12 deg of bounce off a sidewalk.

post #11 of 30
Thread Starter 
Ok, I'm not sure how but I was hitting a 56* sw and lw 60*
Off concrete pad just to try it center of stance open
With a slight wrist hinge and accelerated follow through.
Question is, is it the bounce hitting the concrete and than
The ball or is it the ball is sliding up the grooves of the face
Of the wedge, or a little of both. And as far as ball position
Pelz plays most everything from center of stance even flops
And bump and runs, Phil seems more centered or front of stance
Just from what I can see on his clips.
post #12 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfjunky0331 View Post

Ok, I'm not sure how but I was hitting a 56* sw and lw 60*
Off concrete pad just to try it center of stance open
With a slight wrist hinge and accelerated follow through.
Question is, is it the bounce hitting the concrete and than
The ball or is it the ball is sliding up the grooves of the face
Of the wedge, or a little of both. And as far as ball position
Pelz plays most everything from center of stance even flops
And bump and runs, Phil seems more centered or front of stance
Just from what I can see on his clips.

Well, I don't advocate hitting off cement or practicing the technique off mats.

 

All of that depends on what you're trying to do as to hitting the ground, sliding the club, and then hitting ball; or hitting ball and ground simultaneously.

 

Wait for your Phil DVD's.

 

Patience, grasshopper.

 

Pelz has some good technique for troubled spots - and if you want to use his 3 swings with one club approach, fine.

post #13 of 30
Thread Starter 
Me. Desmond,
Your response makes me laugh, yes I do need to be patient
But it's so hard when you're excited knowing the short game
Is most of my shots wasted from 50 yards and if i can improve that
i will be so much better. Info is so Different on chipping and pitching
between peltz, utley, and phil. But I will start with Phil's ideas and just
Use the bump and run info as well as the 3x4 technique from
Peltz's sgb. I do have utleys book coming too, I figure if I read the
2 books and watch the videos I will be able to use something from each.
So much info so little time, very frustrating but that's golf!!!!
post #14 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfjunky0331 View Post

Me. Desmond,
Your response makes me laugh, yes I do need to be patient
But it's so hard when you're excited knowing the short game
Is most of my shots wasted from 50 yards and if i can improve that
i will be so much better. Info is so Different on chipping and pitching
between peltz, utley, and phil. But I will start with Phil's ideas and just
Use the bump and run info as well as the 3x4 technique from
Peltz's sgb. I do have utleys book coming too, I figure if I read the
2 books and watch the videos I will be able to use something from each.
So much info so little time, very frustrating but that's golf!!!!

Utley has some good vids on youtube.

 

I use Utley and some Phil

post #15 of 30

From Phil's video, his swing key for chipping is to "keep the hands moving toward the target" (hinge hold, etc).  This helps for good contact and to insure your hands are ahead of the ball at contact.  Phil uses ball position in his video to vary the height the ball will come off the club face.  Back=lower trajectory, forward=higher.  I use this somewhat but use more of the Utley technique.

 

Practicing of grass is best, but you can use mats in the winter into a net.  Try to vary the trajectory with ball position but also work on direction.  Put a vertical line on the net and try to hit the line at different heights.

post #16 of 30
Thread Starter 
I have utleys short game book coming as well
But was curious is the diff that utley only pivots
With no hinge and hold? Or a slight hinge and hold?
post #17 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfjunky0331 View Post

I have utleys short game book coming as well
But was curious is the diff that utley only pivots
With no hinge and hold? Or a slight hinge and hold?

Think of Utley as a mini-golf swing.

 

ON youtube, he has a clinic where he talks about, essentially asks you to free up your wrists - depending on the shot that is required.

 

So, yeah, you could have a slight hinge and hold through the shot (but the club going around you like a golf swing), or you could hinge more, or if the shot requires it, you can let the clubhead pass the wrists.

 

But the basic seems to be a mini-swing around a center pivot.

 

I think you are hung on on labels - you need to do what the shot requires, but have a sound basis for your swing.

post #18 of 30
Thread Starter 
No, I'm not hung up on labels but they do seem to help. The way I understand it, the peltz off the back foot dead hands technique works well for a short chip.
The Phil style with a "hinge and hold" is great for a chip with higher ball flight and when you need a sharper angle into the ball, and the utley pivot is good for most chips, and pitches up to 30 yards. I'm no expert in any means but I do like to get as much info on different styles and its nice that there is a forum to ask questions to those who have already spent some time trying out these methods. It's funny because everything does seem to have a label anymore. In putting ...
Left hand low, pendulum, piston, traditional, belly putting. Just to name a few. I do appreciate all the feedback and thanks to all those with different ideas
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