Originally Posted by mailman
What you are saying is that someone is GUILTY until proven innocent. IF there are mixed results then the USGA MUST push for testing until they get confirmation the spray can enhance performance otherwise they are doing exactly what you said, basing their ban on nothing more than conjecture and assumptions.
Certainly if someone is going to be banned and have their career jeapardised then its in the USGA's best interests to ensure a certain product is tested until the cows come home to either prove or disprove that substance enhances performance.
Finally, I would have thought the more conservative approach would have been to assume someone is innocent until PROVEN guilty. To me it seems you are erring on the exact opposite, that someone is guity until proven innocent.
I can't make this any more simple for you. There are rules in the PGA. The players are informed of the rules in writing. The players agree to abide by the rules WHETHER YOU OR THEY LIKE THEM OR NOT. Vijay broke SEVERAL rules in the PGA's Anti-Doping Program. He had a list of banned substances (ALL PGA players have the same list). He purchased a banned substance. He administered a banned substance. He then admitted to purchasing and administering a banned substance. Do I need to post the program manual for you again?
And for the rest of you who are giving him the benefit of the doubt and believing him when he said he didn't know there was any IGF-1 in the stuff, why don't you take a look at the company's website. They have no problem admitting that IGF-1 is the main ingredient in the spray. So what's Vijay's excuse...all the sudden he forgot how to read?
(Excerpt from http://swatsedge.com/s-w-a-t-s-ultimate-spray/ explaining why they designed a spray that can be absorbed into tissues in the mouth)
"The very delicate and unique nutritional properties of S.W.A.T.S Sports Spray (such as IGF-1 and other growth factors) would be completely destroyed by the hydrochloric acid bath in the stomach if digested. Even though many of the amino acids, minerals, and some vitamins found in antler velvet can be absorbed via the digestive tract, the dozens of rare and extremely unique nutrients would be destroyed before thy could be used by the body. A sub-lingual system would provide a slightly better absorption, but many of the unique nutrients would either not be able to pass through the mucosa or be destroyed by saliva."
There's also a list of ingredients at the bottom that includes IGF-1.
This is the product that Vijay admitted to using every couple of hours, every day.
I'm baffled at what "proof" you need. Vijay admitted to using it, his admission was recorded, and admitting to using a banned substance is against the rules. Let me clarify that, in case you're still not getting it. EVEN IF HE NEVER BOUGHT OR USED A BANNED SUBSTANCE, IF HE CLAIMED HE USED A BANNED SUBSTANCE HE WOULD STILL BE IN VIOLATION OF THE RULES because admitting to it is ALSO a violation.
You don't get to decide what rules you must follow. Maybe you haven't learned that lesson yet, but that's the way the world works. There are rules, he knew about the rules, he admitted to breaking them. Case closed. You can whine about whether IGF-1 should be on the banned list all you want, but that doesn't excuse anyone. The list was well-known. The list was distributed to the players. It's not freakin' rocket science. If you use one of these products, you will be punished. How dumb do you think Vijay is that it needs to be further simplified for him?
Originally Posted by newtogolf
Okay, I'll clarify and simplify, since you're still missing my point.
- We have banned substances out there like HGH and anabolic steroids that are proven to be PEDS.
- The current testing for these substances is flawed. Where there is random testing it's not truly random and the tests being utilized in most of professional sports are knowingly inferior to what's available. I don't believe this is accidental, the unions and league want there to be the guise of testing to appease the media and public. The PGA Tour only tests urine, not blood, so they are unable to detect HGH or IGF-1 because it's not detectable in urine. If Vijay didn't admit his use of deer antler spray, he'd have never been caught which is even more ridiculous given the delivery method of IGF-1 in deer antler spray is known to be completely ineffective.
- The PGA Tour has no transparency, they handle violations, penalties and content of their announcements at their discretion. We might never know if someone of Tiger's stature has failed a drug test or if he receives the same penalty as Doug Barron.
- Loopholes like the one Ryan Braun used to escape penalty can allow a cheater to not be penalized despite a failed test.
If an organization is really concerned about cleaning up their sport they should at least have a test in place that tests for the two most proven PEDS. Why have an exhaustive list of drugs that are banned (and could be present in normal foods) and then knowingly use flawed testing, allow the potential for procedural disqualification of the test results and have no transparency within the organization?
1. Very true. And it's also scientifically proven that IGF-1, just like HGH and steroids, is proven to be a PED.
2. Blood testing should be used, in my opinion. I'll agree with you there. HOWEVER, I'm tired of there being different rules for me than there are for you. I've posted plenty of study results backing up every claim I've made. How about posting your source that proves that "deer antler spray is known to be completely ineffective." (and I hope you have something better than the opinions of a bunch of golfers on this website)
3. The lack of transparency in organizations is in-part to protect the individuals. If they found out about a golfer's drug problem and were required to report that to the media, can you imagine how it could hurt a career? How about asking John Daly the effects of the media when you're trying to fix your life. Honestly, it's none of your business whether or not someone fails a drug test. Who the heck do you think you are? That's between the PGA Tour and the players, and I'm pretty sure the players find out. We had the same issues in the military whenever some guys got in trouble (DUI, etc) but it wasn't long before everyone knew about it. As for the media and YOU being notified, as I said, it's none of your business.
4. Ryan Braun didn't get off because of a "loophole". He got off because procedures weren't followed. While YOU may call it a loophole, I can tell you having worked with the Air Force Drug Demand Reduction Program (urine testing) for several years, we have STRICT procedures we have to follow to ensure chain of custody of the sample because in order for it to stand up in court it has to be IMPOSSIBLE for the sample to have been tampered with. I've testified in court martials against individuals who failed urine tests. I can tell you there is a STRICT procedure that has to be followed, and if it's not followed then the sample is invalid...simple as that. It should have never been tested because the sample was compromised. It's not a loophole. It's a failure to follow procedures, and the guys who are testing the samples HAVE to follow procedures or else they need to find another job.
I have to disagree with your final comment. We do not have an "exhaustive list" of banned substances. There are seven classes of substances that are banned. If someone isn't intelligent enough to know if something falls into one of those categories, the PGA manual even breaks it down into a bunch of examples of those drugs.
I do agree that blood testing should be necessary.