Clone clubs: has anyone bought any of them??? - Page 2

Quote:

Originally Posted by golflaw 

Where did you get your law license? A conflict of interest is when you represent one side and later switch to another.
I really get tired of people today making up their own facts. You can have your own opinion, but at 62 I am not going to let someone make up their own facts and then spout them off as though they have any merit.
You may choose to believe the earth is flat if you wish. Your opinion is not a fact.
Saying that Chinese or other clones of product are comparable to name brands is actually false. It is not a fact. You may not like it or you may say 1000 times that clones are the same. It doesn't make that so or a fact. I have no conflicts. I choose not to represent knock offs for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is they move their factories all the time, they hide their money, they create and dissolve Corproate entities to avoid paying damages. Again, those are facts.

Sweeping generalizations are not facts either. You made a sweeping generalization about clones which is not necessarily true. Therefore your statement was not fact. You have yet to cite a concrete fact as it pertains to this particular debate; you're talking about counterfeiting products rather than clone products. Obviously there'd be a lot of easy money in it for you if they were the same thing, so I can see why you'd use rhetoric to lump them together.

FYI there's a difference between clones and counterfeits; clones use the same general designs with the same materials and processes but don't pass themselves off as name brand clubs. Counterfeits will copy the exact logos and attempt to look like the real thing, but aren't meant to be playing quality. The clones will also charge much less, with less advertising, while counterfeits will try to get full market price if they can. Clones are made by more or less honest businesses, while counterfeiters are trying to make money without following the law. (And as an aside, complaining about companies hiding money and using loopholes to maximize profits is pretty laughable, because that's exactly the kind of shit lawyers tell them to do. And also the same tricks companies in the US use.)

If I made my living trying to viciously defend the brand name mystique, as you admit you do, I would be biased. You are biased, having never compared the equipment in question, yet still believing more expensive equipment to be superior. I have at least a basis for my opinion which isn't prejudiced, having played both clones and brand names. Your opinion is not based on fact, mine is.

I don't think I was incorrect about the conflict of interest thing either, even as a matter of semantics. You are paid to represent one side in this debate, since it would be damaging to your career as an lawyer to admit the clubs were the same. Yet you are also attempting to weigh in on a public forum. You cannot be objective in this debate without possibly affecting your other interests ie your career. Same reason you can't trust a judge in a lawsuit against a tobacco company to also be the CEO of a tobacco company. Your support for the brands can be explained by the fact they pay you money, you could not be expected to potentially undermine your income, therefore you are not able to be objective. As long as you admit that you're totally biased and have no basis of experience to compare clones and brand clubs, that's fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuciusWooding 

 

 

FYI there's a difference between clones and counterfeits; clones use the same general designs with the same materials and processes but don't pass themselves off as name brand clubs. Counterfeits will copy the exact logos and attempt to look like the real thing, but aren't meant to be playing quality. The clones will also charge much less, with less advertising, while counterfeits will try to get full market price if they can. Clones are made by more or less honest businesses, while counterfeiters are trying to make money without following the law.

Here's my perspective on clones, for whatever it's worth......

If it's a small manufacturer of Open Design clubs such as those that LBlack14 describes, someone saying "hey guys, I make a great product, with great components, at a price that beats the heck out of similar products produced by the big guys, give me and my product a try", that's one thing.  As a free market kind of guy, that's something I ABSOLUTELY admire and support.  A company like this provides competition in the market and benefits golf and consumers alike. 

BUT, when it's someone saying "hey guys, I use components that are clones, i.e. copies of the same clubs that the big guys are making and the only difference is that I don't put their name on it so I can sell it for a lot less", then we have a problem.  At best they're lying because even if it looks the same visually, it simply cannot have the exact same specifications and technology that top manufacturers spent millions of R&D dollars developing and producing to their proprietary specs.  At worst, if it IS an exact replica/clone, then they reverse engineered the clubs they're cloning and are violating any number of patent laws in producing the club.  In fact, in that case, they're little better than the counterfeiters who simply go one step further and fake the manufacturers name as well.  Anyone doing either needs to be shut down because they're either a fraud, a thief, or both.

Is it possible that name brand club makers reverse engineer each other's products?  Muscleback irons look pretty much the same no matter who makes them. Why is that? Just asking for the sake of argument. 

I have owned clones, Pinemeadow  Impex fairway woods which are Wilson Deep Red clones,  entry level clubs such as RAM, which are not bad, with most of my gear being name brand. I found the clones, quality wise, to be right there in the middle. My name brand is the best of what I own and cost the most of course. 

For my first set of clubs I received a set of turbo power clones of callaway's x18 model for christmas. I have played both my clones and the real x18's, and I will say that I felt I played better with the x18's than I ever did with the clones. I can definitely agree with other posters in this thread that have said that shafts on clones are absolutely terrible. The shafts on my turbo powers are downright flimsy, and every time I hit a ball it feels like I am mining with a pickaxe or something, not a good feeling. The heads are fine, but get new shafts asap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBlack14 


I'm still not getting the shaft thing. Put whatever shafts you want in them.

What do you mean you're not getting the shaft thing? I'm saying, along with others who have said the same thing, that the shafts that come stock with many clones (or at least the ones I have used) are not high quality whatsoever. Therefore, yes, you can purchase better quality aftermarket shafts, but if you go that route you will most likely be spending as much money as you would just buying an OEM set of clubs in the first place. Get it now?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casey 

What do you mean you're not getting the shaft thing? I'm saying, along with others who have said the same thing, that the shafts that come stock with many clones (or at least the ones I have used) are not high quality whatsoever. Therefore, yes, you can purchase better quality aftermarket shafts, but if you go that route you will most likely be spending as much money as you would just buying an OEM set of clubs in the first place. Get it now?

I'd say it's more accurate to say it's comparable to get clones with high quality shafts and grips to an OEM set from a season or two ago, cost wise, not necessarily new. Even then, most clones should be cheaper. It's just that you're usually stuck with limited options. Gigagolf and Pinemeadow only has graphite and Dynamic Golds as quality options, Hireko is also a bit limited but has a few more. Components like Maltby are my favorite because you can choose whatever they stock that fits the hosel. Since they also are a shaft retailer, they have nearly everything you could buy.

But as a result of this, I know it is a huge waste of money to reshaft a set, in addition to having to pay for the stock shaft going to waste. But I've had to do that for OEM clubs too. Having a high swing speed is expensive when nothing cheap fits you.