Johnny Miller: Ben Hogan's Real Secret - Page 2

Quote:

Originally Posted by onephenom 


You're post doesn't quite make sense... stance line doesn't have anything to do with anything I said.
 

You said a cut can't be hit with any path.

That implies that the golf ball somehow knows what the path is. The golf ball doesn't know anything about the path. 

Two swings:

Stance line 10 degrees open, path 10 degrees inside out, face 2 degrees open to the path.

Stance line 10 degrees closed, path 10 degrees outside in, face 2 degrees open to the path. 

Assuming same quality of contact, swing speed, dynamic loft, etc. there is zero difference in these shots from the golf ball's perspective. 

I realize you misunderstood what I was talking about. No biggie. I'm just explaining why I mentioned stance.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by onephenom 

Thanks for clarifying what he meant. That's not how I read it, I thought he was saying open club face is a fade... should have thought about relative to path.

Got confused by his meaning.

 

When talking about the ball's flight it only makes sense to talk about the face in relation to the path. 

 

The ball doesn't know anything about your target. 

I think I gotta agree with shortstop on this one. I can close down my stance, have a strong grip and still hit a cut shot whenever I want to. For me personally, I just have to make the practice swings where my hips clear before the club gets square and I can hit a fade. I do the opposite for the draw. I assume that the club path changes therefore I hit the corresponding shot.

Sure it does, for a driver 15% of the direction of the ball is based on the swing path. There is momentum traveling in the direction of the swing path at impact, this accounts for up to 15% to were the ball will start off, the other 85% is due to clubface angle. 

Yes the ball doesn't know what your stance line is, but for players stance line will dictate swing path, so there interrelated for that individual person. But in the realm of teaching the golf swing, its easier to relate by saying, the ball will start out were the clubface points relative to your target line. Because for most people, they relate the ball flight to were they aim. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by saevel25 

Sure it does, for a driver 15% of the direction of the ball is based on the swing path. There is momentum traveling in the direction of the swing path at impact, this accounts for up to 15% to were the ball will start off, the other 85% is due to clubface angle. 

 

Yes the ball doesn't know what your stance line is, but for players stance line will dictate swing path, so there interrelated for that individual person. But in the realm of teaching the golf swing, its easier to relate by saying, the ball will start out were the clubface points relative to your target line. Because for most people, they relate the ball flight to were they aim. 

My point was that the golf ball has zero clue whether your path is inside out or outside-in. Because of that if the face is open to the path, the ball will cut. If the ball only cut when the path was outside-in, that would imply that the golf ball knows when the path is outside-in. It doesn't.

Inside-out and outside-in are terms created by the golfing community. It's dictated by the stance line. These terms mean nothing to the golf ball. The ball is hit by a face with a path that is either left, inline or right of the face angle. 

Yes, but that is still a swing path. To the ball, the swing path is either to the left, center, or to the right, and that path has a very small partial impact on how the ball reacts. 

Inside out, is still as wing path, its a path to the right. Outside in is a swing path to the left (for right handers). It has nothing to do with target line, i don't know why your linking it to target line. Outside to in, just means the club starts outside the balls center line and comes back inside the balls center line. The only time its related to swing path is if you aim perfectly square to the ball. But that is just incidental 

Quote:

Originally Posted by shortstop20 

When talking about the ball's flight it only makes sense to talk about the face in relation to the path. 

I disagree with that. Again the ball flight still has to go towards a target.

I agree that when you're just talking about "does the ball cut" or "does the ball draw" the target is irrelevant - but golf is a target game, so we again use the words right/left for face relative to target (basically gets you the start line), and then open/closed for face to path (to get the curve).

Yeah, all well and good, but Mr Millers point was about the lead hand palm facing the target and that being a "fade move". When I pick up a stick and do it it does seem to open my body to the target and therefore open the face.

Quote:

Originally Posted by saevel25 

Yes, but that is still a swing path. To the ball, the swing path is either to the left, center, or to the right, and that path has a very small partial impact on how the ball reacts. 

 

Inside out, is still as wing path, its a path to the right. Outside in is a swing path to the left (for right handers). It has nothing to do with target line, i don't know why your linking it to target line. Outside to in, just means the club starts outside the balls center line and comes back inside the balls center line. The only time its related to swing path is if you aim perfectly square to the ball. But that is just incidental 

In relation to what? 

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas 

 

I disagree with that. Again the ball flight still has to go towards a target.

 

I agree that when you're just talking about "does the ball cut" or "does the ball draw" the target is irrelevant - but golf is a target game, so we again use the words right/left for face relative to target (basically gets you the start line), and then open/closed for face to path (to get the curve).

Using different words for them is acceptable I guess.

I just hate all of this talk about hitting a draw with an open face, it just confuses people even more. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by shortstop20 

Using different words for them is acceptable I guess.

 

I just hate all of this talk about hitting a draw with an open face, it just confuses people even more. 

That's precisely why I'm trying to get everyone away from that.

Draws are hit with a face closed to the path, and if it's playable, a face pointing right of the target at impact (for a righty).