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Weight Forward - Using SwingCatalyst and SAM Balance Lab to Explain Pressure Throughout the Swing - Page 7

post #109 of 151
You will not get an exact pattern on presure plate technology.

The only exact match of pro swings are.

Weight has shifted to front and hips have cleared so the pro is over 45 degrees toward the target at impact.

On backswing weight moves to back foot usually on the inside.

The pro move is the start of the downswing, the weight shift to front side squares the hips and drops the club on the inside into the so called slot.

The rotation of the hips makes the hips clear so much a pro is over 45 degrees toward the target at impact.

Type of grip, lenght of backswing, follow through, etc, have minimal impact on swing speed pros have.

If you can learn to clear your hips before impact while maintaining your spine angle, you will have maximum core torque at impact.

Impact Swing is what every pro has.

They deliver the maximum torque load at impact.

Its done by a fast rotation of hips while maintaining spine angle.
post #110 of 151

My feeling is the takeaway is the hard piece to grasp,if you can get that the downswing will follow naturally.A takeaway that involves a coiling action rather than a sway and lift and tilt.A takeaway that works the upper body coiling against a lower body resistance building torque.

post #111 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedrop View Post
 

I was watching Pettersen at the Aussie womens open,she is wearing shorts and you can see the leg action perfectly...very interesting.

 

This doesn't add any value to the discussion.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by impactswing View Post

You will not get an exact pattern on presure plate technology.

The only exact match of pro swings are.

 

What does either of those things mean?

 

And please note that you are not allowed to advertise or promote your book or whatever it is you have, Sol.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by impactswing View Post

Weight has shifted to front and hips have cleared so the pro is over 45 degrees toward the target at impact.

 

I realize that you think that's the one thing that pros have in common, but I disagree, and the numbers bear that out: pros are anywhere from 20-60° open to the target at impact.

 

And words like "cleared" are ambiguous and often misinterpreted, leading to many players spinning out and not actually sliding their hips forward as well.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by impactswing View Post

The pro move is the start of the downswing, the weight shift to front side squares the hips and drops the club on the inside into the so called slot.

 

Almost every professional golfer swings on more "outward" or higher plane on the downswing than the backswing. And why "drop" something into a "slot" - why not just have the club in the "slot" to begin with?

 

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by impactswing View Post

If you can learn to clear your hips before impact while maintaining your spine angle, you will have maximum core torque at impact.

 

 

Many pros don't actually maintain their "spine angle" (I prefer the term "inclination" or "inclination to the ground"). Many pros early extend a little.

 

And you're just setting everyone up for a sales pitch, Sol, and I don't care for it.

 

I've already addressed "clearing your hips" and the damage it can do.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by freedrop View Post
 

My feeling is the takeaway is the hard piece to grasp,if you can get that the downswing will follow naturally.

 

In my experience this isn't true at all. I can put the average golfer in a great top of the backswing position and they still look like an average golfer during the downswing.

 

If golf were as easy as making a good takeaway, people would not be shooting scores as high as they do.

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedrop View Post
 

A takeaway that involves a coiling action rather than a sway and lift and tilt.A takeaway that works the upper body coiling against a lower body resistance building torque.

 

Nah.

 


 

I'll warn the both of you that this thread will remain on topic, and "a takeaway that involves coiling" and "let me drop a bunch of hints about my book…" aren't exactly on topic.

 

The topic is clearly discussed in the first few posts. Please stick to the topic, not branches six forks removed from the main trunk.

post #112 of 151

Weight on the forward  leg as impact is approached is undeniable ,it is a given in golf teaching.

post #113 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedrop View Post

Weight on the forward  leg as impact is approached is undeniable ,it is a given in golf teaching.

Yep, most anateurs never learn how to transfer weight properly nor start the downswing properly.

A teachin pro I know that worked with lots of tour pros when they were young, likes to have new players work with throwing a 5 pound ball to him just to learn how a weight transfer feels.

Consistent ball striking has good weight transfer and hip rotation at its core.
post #114 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by impactswing View Post


Yep, most anateurs never learn how to transfer weight properly nor start the downswing properly.

A teachin pro I know that worked with lots of tour pros when they were young, likes to have new players work with throwing a 5 pound ball to him just to learn how a weight transfer feels.

Consistent ball striking has good weight transfer and hip rotation at its core.

 

The trick for instructors and students is to explain and grasp how to make the weight shift to the back foot without left hip and knee sway.

post #115 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedrop View Post
 

The trick for instructors and students is to explain and grasp how to make the weight shift to the back foot without left hip and knee sway.

 

That's not exactly a difficult "trick."

post #116 of 151
Quote:
 3) From ~A4 to ~A4.25 to ~A4.5 the golfer will subtly push off with their right foot, their left knee will slide horizontally forward, their core will slide their hips forward, and you'll see another little spike in pressure on the trail side.

Hi iacas,

 

Just wanted to thank you for this nugget. I've been working on key #3 for a wee while, and this description has become the focus of the 5 "s" of my practice.

It's easy to say "I need to get my weight forward at impact". It's much more specific (and helpful), to go slowly through the motion detailed above.

Cheers!:beer:

post #117 of 151

 

Mark Crossfield breaks out the pressure plates and explains a bit on how getting the weight forward promotes a draw. One of his better videos. 

post #118 of 151


Very interesting . I think it matters what you are "trying to do"  in our head with your weight. If you try to remain in balance during the backswing you will feel evenly balanced. As the backswing  begins,

some backward momentum is created by the backward movement  of the club ( it doesn't matter that the club is "light",it still has momentum).And, importantly, the faster you swing back, the more

momentum you create going backwards. To "feel"  in balance the body reacts to neutralize the backward force. This accounts for the pressure felt in the right leg, It is resisting the backward momentum of the arms and club moving back. So the woman in the video has pressure on her right leg on the backswing but she does not look like her body mass has moved to the right. Because it has not. This difference between pressure and weight shift causes a lot of misunderstanding  in golf teaching. Almost all pro golfers do not look like they move their  body mass(weight) to the right in the back swing ( except for a  while Curtis Strange did this). This video helps a lot in confirming this difference between pressure and weight shift. As the downswing starts, initially the club moves backward again .(The club moves away from the target) This creates more right leg resistance . 

But only momentarily. As the club moves into the hitting position  the momentum suddenly reverses its direction  and goes towards the target. The   force  of the resistance in the right leg has no opposing momentum to neutralize  and so the weight is actually forced  towards the target causing   the weight to actually move left and resistance on the left leg to increases   due to the  mass  

of there body actually moving left on to the finish position.

  As a result of all these changes in direction of force, the pace the the swing needs to be constant for the golfer to accommodate the changes in pressure required .

As a result of theses forces, the faster the downswing  the greater  and faster will be the weight shift  towards the target. So. it could be that what is critical for a good weight shift  to 95%

of the weight moving to the left foot is that the downswing is  fast. SO it could be that the  speed of the downswing accounts for the fullness of the weight shift ( and the follow thru).

So the proper pressure dynamics in the downswing could be the result of the speed of the downswing instead of the cause of the speed of   the downswing.

post #119 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by william1943 View Post
 

Very interesting . I think it matters what you are "trying to do"  in our head with your weight. If you try to remain in balance during the backswing you will feel evenly balanced. As the backswing  begins, some backward momentum is created by the backward movement  of the club ( it doesn't matter that the club is "light",it still has momentum).And, importantly, the faster you swing back, the more momentum you create going backwards.

 

Our tests indicate that the club is too light to do much of anything, and the momentum is generated first horizontally and then upward. The forces generated by the club moving are incredibly tiny. We've had people make swings with just a grip and, for those who can make swings that resemble their own swings (some people make different swings when they're not actually hitting a ball and when they are), the traces and numbers and whatnot look basically identical - they're within the same margins as swing to swing with a golf club.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by william1943 View Post
 

To "feel"  in balance the body reacts to neutralize the backward force. This accounts for the pressure felt in the right leg, It is resisting the backward momentum of the arms and club moving back.

 

I don't think that's it, but if you want to talk about feels, I'll check out. You can have whatever feels you want. They may or may not be "real" in reality, or to anyone else, but they're undoubtedly real to you. This thread, however, is about what actually happens.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by william1943 View Post
 

So the woman in the video has pressure on her right leg on the backswing but she does not look like her body mass has moved to the right. Because it has not.

 

I agree that it has not moved much. Her mass remains relatively centered (it shifts a bit right - the left arm, the chest is in front of the spine, etc.) but she pushes against the ground with her right foot and hip and "releases" the ground by bending her left knee and hip a bit. The torque generated by turning plays a small role as well. That's what shifts pressure (force) to her right.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by william1943 View Post
 

This difference between pressure and weight shift causes a lot of misunderstanding  in golf teaching. Almost all pro golfers do not look like they move their  body mass(weight) to the right in the back swing ( except for a  while Curtis Strange did this). This video helps a lot in confirming this difference between pressure and weight shift. As the downswing starts, initially the club moves backward again .(The club moves away from the target) This creates more right leg resistance.

 

I still feel that you're giving far too much credit to the club. Again, you can generate identical numbers without a club at all.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by william1943 View Post
 

But only momentarily. As the club moves into the hitting position  the momentum suddenly reverses its direction  and goes towards the target. The   force  of the resistance in the right leg has no opposing momentum to neutralize  and so the weight is actually forced  towards the target causing   the weight to actually move left and resistance on the left leg to increases   due to the  mass  of there body actually moving left on to the finish position.

 

The body mass trails the pressure (force) readings because throughout a good bit of the downswing, particularly the late downswing, the situation from the backswing is reversed: the right leg is bending, the left leg is extending, and that pushes against the ground, moving the pressure (force) readings to the left side.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by william1943 View Post
 

 

As a result of all these changes in direction of force, the pace the the swing needs to be constant for the golfer to accommodate the changes in pressure required .

 

With most common definitions for the word "pace" that's not really true: the downswing features different segments accelerating (not remaining constant) and some even decelerate prior to impac

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by william1943 View Post
 

 

As a result of theses forces, the faster the downswing  the greater  and faster will be the weight shift  towards the target. So. it could be that what is critical for a good weight shift  to 95%

of the weight moving to the left foot is that the downswing is  fast. SO it could be that the  speed of the downswing accounts for the fullness of the weight shift ( and the follow thru).

So the proper pressure dynamics in the downswing could be the result of the speed of the downswing instead of the cause of the speed of   the downswing.

 

I don't really know what that means. The golfer shifts some weight but a good bit of the forces generated and seen by pressure plates have more to do with the golfer actively using the ground and pushing off the left foot by extending the left knee and hip to thrust, while the weight lags behind in getting forward and the right foot gradually becomes unweighted.

post #120 of 151


You could be right. But It seems to me  if   the  left foot  is pushing against the ground, this would prevent the weight from moving left. not cause it. For example, if someone is trying to push you over to the left , you resist movement to the left by pushing on your left foot preventing your weight from moving to the left.If I push off the ground with my left foot  I go to the right. If I push off with my right foot I go to the left. 

  For some strange reason, If I try to keep my weight centered  ( by feel) during the backswing and transition, I seem to  get the weight  thru the shot better than if I make a big  weight shift to the right in  the backswing  and then try to move to   the left in the downswing.  It seems to me that if you start the downswing with the weight evenly balanced  you can move faster to the target  during the transition than if you make a big weight shift to the right in the backswing,  A lot of folks tell us to "stay behind the ball". especially on the driver.  What does your work reveal with a driver swing.? 

post #121 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by william1943 View Post
 


You could be right. 

 

He is ;-) 

 

Erik is one of the top minds in golf, he knows his stuff.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by william1943 View Post
 


But It seems to me  if   the  left foot  is pushing against the ground, this would prevent the weight from moving left. not cause it. For example, if someone is trying to push you over to the left , you resist movement to the left by pushing on your left foot preventing your weight from moving to the left.If I push off the ground with my left foot  I go to the right. If I push off with my right foot I go to the left. 

 

 

 

Pushing off the ground, left knee extending, "spikes" the pressure under the left foot. This doesn't mean the golfer is falling back to their right. You can still have your "weight" forward and extend/thrust.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by william1943 View Post
 

A lot of folks tell us to "stay behind the ball". especially on the driver.  What does your work reveal with a driver swing.? 

 

 

Depends what "staying behind it" means. At address the head is behind the ball. The head in a functional golf swing remains steady during the backswing and after impact (until the arms are parallel to the ground in the followthrough), so the golfer has "stayed behind it". That doesn't mean the lower body doesn't transfer forward, you have to create some axis tilt.

 

 Weight Forward and Secondary Axis Tilt 

post #122 of 151

You can't "push off the ground" with your left foot until the mass of the body is slightly shifted to the left. It would be like pushing off with your left foot when it was suspended in the air.
Before you can put pressure on your left foot, you have to have more than 50%of your weight on your left foot. This is why all good golfers shift their weight slightly to the left during the transition.

This shift to the left is done by pressure  from the right foot.The left foot cannot thrust or spike anything until the mass of the body is slightly left.Try placing 90% of your weight on your right foot and ten percent on your left foot and try to leverage anything with your left foot. You cannot. You must move left first.That is why the pressure on the left foot is caused by the weight ( mass) of the body shifted to the left. Of course if you keep the  weight  on the left foot throughout the backswing this step is not necessary.

When the weight is on the left foot, the pressure then can be applied. But this pressure ( "using the  ground") is mainly  applied against the ground vertically. The vertical pressure  from the left foot

occurs  as an upward force  and opposes the force of the arms bringing the club back to the ball as a downward force.As the club moves past the ball, the body is carried by the momentum of the club  and the arms to the finish.

post #123 of 151

To illustrate the point further...from golfdigest.com

 

And then there's this beauty from Tiger's new coach, Chris Como. Apparently, making a golf swing while in mid-air is difficult.

 

post #124 of 151


I don't know what that is all about . Maybe some one can enlighten me.

post #125 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by william1943 View Post
 


I don't know what that is all about . Maybe some one can enlighten me.


You were discussing pushing off the ground.  Como illustrates in a funny way what would happen if there was no ground .  :)

post #126 of 151


And what do you think happened other than  he got wet.?

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