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Weight Forward - Using SwingCatalyst and SAM Balance Lab to Explain Pressure Throughout the Swing - Page 2

post #19 of 151

That is so cool.  Really neat to see those weight distributions.  I want one of those! a3_biggrin.gif

post #20 of 151
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cipher View Post

That is so cool.  Really neat to see those weight distributions.  I want one of those! a3_biggrin.gif

You are in Milwaukee...get over here and spend a day!

post #21 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by david_wedzik View Post

You are in Milwaukee...get over here and spend a day!

I would love to, all I can do at the moment is evolvr, as soon as a stinking range opens up around here.   Do you have this in Erie?  I really would love to do that one day, to come in and do a few sessions with you guys in person.  Love how you guys utilize all this technology, and all it does is back up what you teach. 

post #22 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by cipher View Post

I would love to, all I can do at the moment is evolvr, as soon as a stinking range opens up around here.   Do you have this in Erie?  I really would love to do that one day, to come in and do a few sessions with you guys in person.  Love how you guys utilize all this technology, and all it does is back up what you teach. 

 

The instant it stops backing up what we teach is the instant we change because clearly we got something wrong! :)

post #23 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

It's not static at A4. When Grant posed at A4, he was about 47L/53T (lead/trail).

You guys may find this odd, but this tiny sentence is the best thing I've read to help me wrap my head around the difference between weight/pressure.  When he takes his swing to the top and just sits there, IN THE EXACT SAME POSITION as the top of his backswing, he's almost exactly 50/50.  Yet, same move, dynamically during the swing, and the pressure is mostly back.  Thanks again.

 

One other side note ... As somebody who was late to the party (I joined TST and Evolvr after you guys started learning all this stuff) so I was never in the "weight forward throughout the swing" camp.  Even though I've never seen this cool information spelled out scientifically like this, I've never really thought differently.  Of course, you could also say I've never really thought about it at all. :)

post #24 of 151

Very very interesting...thanks for sharing!

post #25 of 151

Weight can be displayed dynamically, pressure can be displayed statically.

and vice versa

 

(in real life, all force must be applied over an area, to contact force is just a simplification of application of pressure.  but, so what)

 

So - the fact that the display is dynamic doesn't have any relation to the point that the output is pressure instead of weight.  I'm surprised this point is such a big deal in the teaching, because it really is moot.  The concepts work and make sense using either metric.  (I think there is an offset when calculating center of reaction depending on whether the object is in motion vs static....)

 

 

The display is pressure, and it's also dynamic, (not BECAUSE it's dynamic) and that's clearly more useful metric for this type of work.

 

 

I'm very happy to see the vid - I had my first lesson ever yesterday and we spent the time on proper weight transfer.  I really does smooth things out.  I plan to practice it a ton - including the training drills I was given.  With the intent of trying to get my weight forward at finish, I had put myself in the position where I was clearly starting forward and not letting myself move to the rear during the backswing - it's hard to move forward through your swing when you are already at the forward stops - or the difference in throwing a baseball vs trying to get the same results shot putting it.  Good lesson - pretty much was given permission to do what my body was trying to do, but now with more purpose I can guide it correctly - or at least better than before.


Edited by rehmwa - 2/21/13 at 2:23pm
post #26 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

You guys may find this odd, but this tiny sentence is the best thing I've read to help me wrap my head around the difference between weight/pressure.  When he takes his swing to the top and just sits there, IN THE EXACT SAME POSITION as the top of his backswing, he's almost exactly 50/50.  Yet, same move, dynamically during the swing, and the pressure is mostly back.  Thanks again.

 

No - weight is just pressure times the areas acted over.  The fact that motion affects the output is the key point - not which metric is being calculated, but it's the -motion- (dynamic) aspect that changes the weight and/or pressure.

 

It's not (weight/pressure) = (static/dynamic).  It's that fact that both weight and pressure both give different results when a posture is measured statically vs dynamically.

 

In other words - static - we measure force and pressure just due to gravity.   Dynamic - momentum is added to gravity to affect both force and pressure.

post #27 of 151

rehmwa, I don't want to get bogged down in semantics issues.

 

Previously posted quick semantics explanation (Click to show)

Basically, though, I agree with just about all of what you said, except that we're using "weight" to mean the actual distribution of a person's mass (in a gravitational field :D), and pressure to mean what forces are measured under someone's feet.

 

If you took a 200 pound person and asked what they weighed, whether they were running, jumping, or swimming, they'd say "200 pounds" and be correct, but they could generate very different forces and pressure levels (force over area) when doing those various things.

 

So we tend to say "weight" is the static measurement (i.e., Grant's weight distribution is 53T/47L at A4) and "pressure" is the measurable data in a dynamic (moving) system (i.e. Grant's pressure distribution is 65T/35L at A4).

post #28 of 151

A few things.

 

1) This is pure data and findings from MANY different force plate systems and goes to show how careful one must be when reading data and applying technology.

 

2) We will NEVER stop researching, questioning and exploring what we teach. We don't believe the studying ever stops. If something comes out that puts what we have into question, we embrace it, explore it, study it, test it and if its correct, apply it. It's not about being right or wrong.

 

3) I want to SERIOUSLY emphasize, that this doesn't mean we are teaching people to feel like they SHIFT to the right, then SHIFT forward... Though it may seem LOGICAL that to increase the pressure right as in these videos, one would move their "body" to the right; the way the PRESSURE is increasing is because of the CHANGE IN KNEE FLEX.

 

I hope everyone enjoys these videos, we have been finding it very enlightening and as mentioned before, explains lots of other things noticed in other pressure plate data.

 

James

 

Ps. For those still trying to 'draw' the ball.... notice how grants trace moves not only LATERALLY, but from right rear to left forward. Ie, diagonally forward. Sometimes this visual can be good for hitting certain shots... and you'd find most SLICERS weight goes right TOE to left HEEL too fast.... this should explain why the 'banking' of the right foot is important as well as the left knee flex to move the weight "cross linear"

 

<3

post #29 of 151

A James sighting.  g2_eek.gif  I have better luck catching bigfoot. b2_tongue.gif

post #30 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by james_hirshfield View Post

 

3) I want to SERIOUSLY emphasize, that this doesn't mean we are teaching people to feel like they SHIFT to the right, then SHIFT forward... Though it may seem LOGICAL that to increase the pressure right as in these videos, one would move their "body" to the right; the way the PRESSURE is increasing is because of the CHANGE IN KNEE FLEX.

 

Well said James.  Yes we are making a centered pivot but adding pressure right, again because the knee is decreasing in flex.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by james_hirshfield View Post

 

Ps. For those still trying to 'draw' the ball.... notice how grants trace moves not only LATERALLY, but from right rear to left forward. Ie, diagonally forward. Sometimes this visual can be good for hitting certain shots... and you'd find most SLICERS weight goes right TOE to left HEEL too fast.... this should explain why the 'banking' of the right foot is important as well as the left knee flex to move the weight "cross linear"

 

Yep like many of you guys have probably heard us talk about feeling like you're adding pressure towards the toes of your left (lead) foot on the downswing.  I'll use the visual of squishing a bug under the front part of the left foot  These traces can be very insightful, just more good info to help golfers play better.

post #31 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvmac View Post

Well said James.  Yes we are making a centered pivot but adding pressure right, again because the knee is decreasing in flex.

 

There's a small weight shift* as well, as you know. But it's smaller than the increase in pressure for the reason stated.

 

* It's those two words - "weight shift" - that get people translating (or sliding, or "shifting" as the connotation goes). The weight shift I'm talking about occurs because your torso, head, and arms move backwards as your body rotates around an axis (there's no one axis, but if you coalesce them all together, you can kinda estimate an axis) near the anterior (front) side of your spinal column.

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by mvmac View Post

Yep like many of you guys have probably heard us talk about feeling like you're adding pressure towards the toes of your left (lead) foot on the downswing.  I'll use the visual of squishing a bug under the front part of the left foot  These traces can be very insightful, just more good info to help golfers play better.

 

Just more proof that feel ain't real. Again, Grant is so used to setting up that way, he feels like it's 50/50.

 

That's the danger of teaching FEELs and why it's important to know what golfers ACTUALLY do - because (and we are seeing a lot of this), feels tend to become more normal. If you once needed to feel 80/20 just to get to 60/40, now feeling even 60/40 might put you at 80/20! If you told Grant Waite to set up 63/37, he'd have a terrible setup.

 

"Weight forward" as a feel is great, and helps a lot of people, but it can be overdone, and so playing with feels - particularly when they're presented as reality by mistake - for the masses is a dangerous endeavor.

post #32 of 151

Erik,

 

Are there any videos showing a mid to high level handicapper using this technology?

 

Would love to see how the little white ball travels compared to Grant's.

post #33 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by coachjimsc View Post

Erik,

 

Are there any videos showing a mid to high level handicapper using this technology?

 

Would love to see how the little white ball travels compared to Grant's.

 

Good question.

 

It'd also be cool if someone invented a device to show us armpit pressures as well.

 

And I know they've done it before -- although I don't know how good the technology was -- but I'd also like to see grip pressures throughout the swing in good players vs. bad ones... like an actual quantification in pounds per square inch. I know just seeing those numbers, and my numbers, would teach me a lot. 

 

Just dreaming out loud z5_smartass.gif

post #34 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by coachjimsc View Post

Are there any videos showing a mid to high level handicapper using this technology?

 

Would love to see how the little white ball travels compared to Grant's.

 

Our own SwingCatalyst arrived earlier today. We'll be installing it shortly and will have a LOT of information to share very soon. After studying this for the past several years (and the technology finally being available and costing less than $100k), we're glad to invest in this technology and I think for a lot of golfers it might do more to transform their games than lots of things (probably still second to HS video).

 

I don't have a bunch yet (that I can share, as I'd have to get permission) but suffice to say the traces of the average player are way more chaotic, are often going the wrong direction (a guy who falls back might spike pressure under his left foot early in the downswing, then settle back on his right foot, then push himself forward to a "fake finish"), and just look like a mess.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JetFan1983 View Post

And I know they've done it before -- although I don't know how good the technology was -- but I'd also like to see grip pressures throughout the swing in good players vs. bad ones... like an actual quantification in pounds per square inch. I know just seeing those numbers, and my numbers, would teach me a lot.

 

Yeah they've done those before. What I remember is good players are fairly firm throughout, but with shockingly even pressure, while poor players are loose, then hang on for dear life on the downswing with a highly variable amount of pressure.

post #35 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

... suffice to say the traces of the average player are way more chaotic, are often going the wrong direction (a guy who falls back might spike pressure under his left foot early in the downswing, then settle back on his right foot, then push himself forward to a "fake finish"), and just look like a mess.

Yeah, why do you have to go and describe my swing like that?  Seriously though, after hitting balls today I was thinking about this thread and noticed almost exactly what you are describing in my own weight transfer.  Maybe this is why I often hit longer clubs from off the deck a pinch fat? I dunno... But it is WIP.

post #36 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetFan1983 View Post

 

It'd also be cool if someone invented a device to show us armpit pressures as well.

 

nerds would just abuse that technology terribly.  Likely until total chaos occurs.

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