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Beach, what I do for distance control is find two positions that are easily repeatable as far as backswing length. Basically it's a2 and a3. One goes 30 yds and the other 60. I usually take a practice swing for 30yds, then go a bit longer or shorter based on my distance.
Question, Erik mentioned above that you can pitch this way with pretty much any club but wouldn't anything above a PW lack the necessary bounce to make this method work?
I can hit pitch shots with a three iron. Lower the hands, open the stance, open the face, put the handle back. All add bounce.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernest Jones
I've been approaching it very much like an Utley sand shot. Anyone else feel there is a large similarity there, almost like an intentional flip.
I can hit pitch shots with a three iron. Lower the hands, open the stance, open the face, put the handle back. All add bounce.
Intentional but not forced.
Ok. I think I got it, won't know for sure till I can hit it off real turf.
It's brilliantly easy once you get the concept. I can see why you would chose pitch over chip in the majority of cases. I'm a pretty decent chipper but have always feared the pitch shot due to the higher swing speed but with this method it's pretty fool proof, don't think I could blade it if I tried!
I think the method I teach requires less timing and hand-eye coordination. Hell, half the time I'm not even looking at the ground when I hit the ball - I've already started pivoting and am looking out towards the target when I make contact.
I bet that in 20 minutes I could get you pitching the ball so well you'd never want to "chip" like you do now (ball off back foot, etc.) again unless you're a foot off the green and the hole is 15 feet away.
Like the putting stroke I like (but even more so), you use the big muscles (turning the torso) for gross speed adjustments and the wrists, fingers, etc. for fine tuned adjustments to speed. It's like a microscope: a gross focus adjustment and a fine focus adjustment.
And because pitching uses higher speeds you can goof by 5 MPH clubhead speed and still get a good shot while at a 15 MPH chip that you suddenly hit 20 MPH it's off the green.
Also wanted to add one feel and for the heck of it share some shots I hit today. At the beginning of the video I'm demonstrating how I rotate my left forearm but keeping some "cup" in my left wrist. Really helps use the bounce, if that left wrist gets arched the leading edge will come into play. Another reason you don't want a strong grip for these shots. Then just showing myself exaggerate some downswings, then hit a shot with a neutral handle and one with the handle leaning back.
Also wanted to add one feel and for the heck of it share some shots I hit today. At the beginning of the video I'm demonstrating how I rotate my left forearm but keeping some "cup" in my left wrist. Really helps use the bounce, if that left wrist gets arched the leading edge will come into play. Another reason you don't want a strong grip for these shots. Then just showing myself exaggerate some downswings, then hit a shot with a neutral handle and one with the handle leaning back.
Thanks for sharing Mike. Pardon my lack of paying attention to your mechanics in the video, all I could think about is that it must be rough living in SD.
So it actually looks like by rotating your forearm and cupping the left wrist a bit, you are opening the club face in the backswing a bit? Kind of the antithesis of what you would normally like to do on a full swing. Makes sense though, helps you get the club face open slightly on impact and use the bounce more.
So it actually looks like by rotating your forearm and cupping the left wrist a bit, you are opening the club face in the backswing a bit? Kind of the antithesis of what you would normally like to do on a full swing. Makes sense though, helps you get the club face open slightly on impact and use the bounce more.
Very much the opposite. One piece is similar: keep your weight on your left leg. Don't even start 50/50. Just put it forward and leave it there. It's a smaller motion so you don't have time (or need) to transfer pressures back and then forward. You're not going for power - just consistency. Weight forward stops you from hitting the ground behind your back foot.
Also wanted to add one feel and for the heck of it share some shots I hit today. At the beginning of the video I'm demonstrating how I rotate my left forearm but keeping some "cup" in my left wrist. Really helps use the bounce, if that left wrist gets arched the leading edge will come into play. Another reason you don't want a strong grip for these shots. Then just showing myself exaggerate some downswings, then hit a shot with a neutral handle and one with the handle leaning back.
Just my .02, but this is only one in a continuum of endless ways to use your wedges. Hinge 'n hold, slide the club under, dead handed, forward in stance, back in stance, open face, hooded face, even the slightly bladed wedge - they all blend into each other at their 'bounderies'. I guess it's human nature to put things into bins and categories, but I love to bring out the creativity in wedge play and not rely on solely one or two ways to hit chips/pitches.
Another feeling that Erik and Mike gave me on the pitch is to feel like your lower body pivot and gravity is moving the club head on the downswing, not your arms and hands. It is a very relaxed shot and I find it easier than a chip. For me, with a chip I can sometimes get too much spin and the ball will check up faster than I want. I find I have to practice the chip more than the pitch to get repeatable results.
Another feeling that Erik and Mike gave me on the pitch is to feel like your lower body pivot and gravity is moving the club head on the downswing, not your arms and hands. It is a very relaxed shot and I find it easier than a chip. For me, with a chip I can sometimes get too much spin and the ball will check up faster than I want. I find I have to practice the chip more than the pitch to get repeatable results.
Beach,
"Try it. You'll like it!"
Exactly, I'm trying to exaggerate that "gravity" feel with some of those practice swings and even the followthroughs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas
Very much the opposite. One piece is similar: keep your weight on your left leg. Don't even start 50/50. Just put it forward and leave it there. It's a smaller motion so you don't have time (or need) to transfer pressures back and then forward. You're not going for power - just consistency. Weight forward stops you from hitting the ground behind your back foot.
Correct, very important part is to just set up left and leave it there. No need to get behind it and try to "lift" the ball. Biggest mistake I see with players is that they set it forward and then straighten the left knee on the downswing. So the weight goes back and they chunk it or skull it and use it as validation that this motion doesn't work. Yeah you're right and Seve was wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beachcomber
How do you not TC Chen this?
Why would I? For me to double hit it the club has to get stuck in some way, in high grass or if I stub it. There is absolutely zero "stub" with this motion. I'm hitting these shots with a lot of speed without taking a divot. Does this motion take some practice and require some faith? Absolutely but I guarantee you this is what the best pitchers of the ball do. And it's something I feel most (if not all) golfers can learn how to do.
Here's how I would get started if an instructor wasn't there to watch you:
- weak grip- helps you rotate the forearms, load the heck out of #3 but with some cup in the left hand
- flare the left foot out 60 degrees- helps you feel more rotation through the shot.
- start with weight forward- like Erik said
- keep the left knee bent into the followthrough- keeps the weight forward but also helps with the next point
- keep the butt of the club close to you and about hip high on the followthrough- gets you to narrow the arc, use that bounce and not the leading edge.
Here's a great pic
I'm hesitant to post this video because he doesn't explain how he does it, just says "I try not to have shaft lean", which is only one piece of the puzzle and it's happening because it's a result of other things in play. Anyway, still gets the point across.
I think the method I teach requires less timing and hand-eye coordination. Hell, half the time I'm not even looking at the ground when I hit the ball - I've already started pivoting and am looking out towards the target when I make contact.
I bet that in 20 minutes I could get you pitching the ball so well you'd never want to "chip" like you do now (ball off back foot, etc.) again unless you're a foot off the green and the hole is 15 feet away.
I can attest to this. I got a short game lesson (live, in-person) from Erik and using the bounce is easier and have been doing it this way ever since. I can't remember the last time I hit pitches or chips off the back foot.
When the guy was talking with Kutcher about his shot, about how about letting the club past the hands, i found this out watching Greg Norman do a teaching lessons from the pro's. He was stuck behind the green and had to hit a high soft shot, and he said to even get it higher, he would flip the and really let it past the hand.
Honestly i always had issues with hitting those chip shots off the back of the stance, i rather get my feet closer together, and put the ball middle of the stance. I really like to feel a fluid stroke, not some jerky stroke that i have to be worried about holding off the club, not letting the club past the hands. One shot i hit really well, i learned when i hit it over the green once, and if i hit a normal pitch the ball would go off the front, i put the ball up in my stance, just inside the front of my left foot. Then i would hinge a lot and i would try not to think about hinging more like a more finesse shot, i would use a ton of body rotation, and really try to keep my hands low and moving around my body. This really brought the bounce into play, and even if i hit behind the ball, the ball would still come out soft and roll out. since i didn't flip, the ball would come out at a more medium trajectory, even playing the ball forward in my stance.
But i like the idea of keeping the front leg flexed more, and feel like i am rotating around my front knee, this really helps.
I have tried it... My problem is I don't have a good area to practice it (for free)... So I haven't really used it. When I do, I've had troubles controlling my distances. Going back to my original post... 10/15/20/25/30 yard pitch shots... How do you control the distance with this shot? I think - at least from my usage of this method - you still need to really master the speed/acceleration piece to control the carry/roll-out. And having the 'balls' to use the shot on lightning fast greens (sometimes I'm playing on 11+ stimp) isn't something I've found myself willing to go with yet.
I just don't think this is an easy shot for the average amatuer to master, unless they have the practice area to work on the technique. For me, I can practice the ball back, weight forward chip in my house. And can control the distance very well - or what I would consider to be pretty well for a 5 handicap.
Beach, what I do for distance control is find two positions that are easily repeatable as far as backswing length. Basically it's a2 and a3. One goes 30 yds and the other 60. I usually take a practice swing for 30yds, then go a bit longer or shorter based on my distance.
Yeah, I'm talking about pitches within 30yds. A shot from 60yds... I already have that figured out with my 58* using a abbreviated pivot of my standard swing pattern. But when you get to say 30 and in... This is when the 'New School' pitching method is something that I've experimented with... But not implemented as I haven't found a way to really control the carry.
Also, sometimes when I do it - the ball will carry and then check and stop - almost immediately. And other times it will carry and land and still rollout. I'm guessing I'm not doing the motion correctly - my turning rates are probably off? But, when I go to the conventional chip - ball back weight forward... I can get the ball close to the hole. Heck, I've chipped in 3x in my last 54 holes... Not too shabby for a 5 handicap.
And let me be clear... I'd love to learn and implement this 'New School' pitching method if it helps me around the green. And I'm not arguing that it wouldn't help me... But my concern is how I can master it with a limited practice area. And the biggest issue I've found with it is distance control.
Originally Posted by mvmacBeach for you if you want to get down to a 1 or scratch you're going to have to learn this shot. Or hit 16 greens in regulation every time you play. For me to double hit it the club has to get stuck in some way, in high grass or if I stub it. There is absolutely zero "stub" with this motion. I'm hitting these shots with a lot of speed without taking a divot. Does this motion take some practice and require some faith? Absolutely but I guarantee you this is what the best pitchers of the ball do. And it's something I feel most (if not all) golfers can learn how to do.
Agreed. I do want to learn it... Because I definitely know it is a useful shot, and know to get better I need to have these type of shots within my repitore. Heck I've seen you use it in person, and loved the result. I remember one hole where you were behind a bunker - and flipped the ball high in the air and the ball came to rest about 2" from going in. That was a really cool golf shot, and one I'd love to be able to hit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvmac
Here's how I would get started if an instructor wasn't there to watch you:
- weak grip- helps you rotate the forearms, load the heck out of #3 but with some cup in the left hand
- flare the left foot out 60 degrees- helps you feel more rotation through the shot.
- start with weight forward- like Erik said
- keep the left knee bent into the follow through- keeps the weight forward but also helps with the next point
- keep the butt of the club close to you and about hip high on the follow through- gets you to narrow the arc, use that bounce and not the leading edge.
Thank you for these tips. I'll try this and let you know how it works. Maybe I can get my camera out and film so you can see what I'm doing? Could be a good Evolvr lesson??
And let me be clear... I'd love to learn and implement this 'New School' pitching method if it helps me around the green. And I'm not arguing that it wouldn't help me... But my concern is how I can master it with a limited practice area. And the biggest issue I've found with it is distance control.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beachcomber
Thank you for these tips. I'll try this and let you know how it works. Maybe I can get my camera out and film so you can see what I'm doing? Could be a good Evolvr lesson??
Yep absolutely can be an Evolvr lesson. You can practice this motion at home, hit some shots on the rug, backyard or on the range, mats or grass. Doesn't have to be on a short game area. Once you're consistent with contact, the distance control becomes much easier. And you don't have to "master" it, just make it better than what it is now :-)
