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Nicklaus suggests a 20% rollback in driving distance - Page 5

post #73 of 223
How about instead of fooling with equipment we just make them swing blindfolded? I'm against dialing it back for several reasons but mostly because I like watching them hit the shit out of the ball. Who the hell wants to watch vanilla golf? Did I enjoy watching Corey Pavin back in the day? Yeah but not as much as I enjoyed watching Freddie Couples bomb it past him. Also, distance is a big selling point for equipment. If you limit that, why would companies spend money in R & D depts to come up with new clubs/balls? Think of the people reliant on that industry for their jobs. Then think of the Pro shops that make a margin on selling that equipment, etc..... You can always make the old courses play harder for them. Increase the length of the rough, make the greens quicker, tougher pin placements, etc.......
post #74 of 223

Players have been driving par 4s for years. Arnold Palmer did it in the 1960 US Open on a 346 yard hole. Last time I checked, they didn't have titanium heads or a modern ball in 1960.

post #75 of 223

This discussion has been going on at least since Ted Ray was hitting the ball over 300 yards with a Haskell and hickory shafted clubs.

 

‘The Haskell, or lively rubber ball, proved to be the most radical and revolutionary innovation the game has known. It was directly responsible for the prodigious growth of the game, which with the old Gutty was restricted in interest mainly to persons who were willing to study and work with it until they were at least decently proficient.

The fascination of the new ballistics was by no means restricted to players of golf. The manufacturers, after catching their breath, started out on an orgy of experimental production. They put practically everything inside the rubber strands from soft soap to some sort of acid that ruined the eyes of inquisitive children who cut into the missiles or bit them open. They made the balls smaller and smaller and wound the strands tighter and tighter, and Ted Ray and Abe Mitchell hit them farther and farther until finally the legislative powers took hold of the situation to prevent the standardized golf courses from being scrapped and made over on the Great Plains of the middle west or the Desert of Sahara; and for other purposes as the conventional legislative bills recite.’

 

The Bobby Jones’ Story, from the writings of O.B. Keeler by Grantland Rice

post #76 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

Dave you know I wrote this a long time ago right? :D
http://thesandtrap.com/b/swing_thoughts/the_mythical_ball_boost

And CoR of the golf ball is not the same as CoR of the clubhead. Long drivers basically can't get a 1.5 smash factor because the ball deforms so much more.
Well I for one I hadn't read that, thanks. You can't argue with hard data!
post #77 of 223
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

Dave you know I wrote this a long time ago right? :D
http://thesandtrap.com/b/swing_thoughts/the_mythical_ball_boost

And CoR of the golf ball is not the same as CoR of the clubhead. Long drivers basically can't get a 1.5 smash factor because the ball deforms so much more.

 

Wow, there's some really cool stuff on this website, huh?  a3_biggrin.gif

Give me a few years and I may actually catch up on your blogs.

 

I will say that a lot of the times when I'm researching stats on various golf topics, it's not uncommon for The Sand Trap to come up on the searches.

post #78 of 223

resurrecting this thread -- pretty sure i heard Jack mention this yesterday on-air at the Memorial, as well.  someone bombed a drive (Bradley??) and carried some fairway bunkers that were obviously there to make players lay up.  

 

Jack was asked if another bunker should be put in next year so players won't be tempted to drive on that particular hole -- he said something to the extent of, 'no, i'd rather they change the friggin' ball.'

 

the thought never crossed my mind until he mentioned it, to be honest... but i wonder if the debate might pick up steam if players like Bradley are driving 350+ on a consistent basis.  crazy.

post #79 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyJeeBiv View Post

the thought never crossed my mind until he mentioned it, to be honest... but i wonder if the debate might pick up steam if players like Bradley are driving 350+ on a consistent basis.  crazy.

 

He's not driving it 350+ on a consistent basis. Driving distances haven't changed much in the past dozen years. Not averages, not the top ten, etc.

 

The ball hasn't changed much either, and there's an ODS that still applies.

post #80 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordan View Post

At the moment the way the rules around drivers are defined it actually magnifies the differences between the shorter and longer hitters off the tee. I'd like to see this reversed and see Jack's 20% taken off the longest hitters, slowly decreasing to the point where the short knockers down the local club (say sub 200 yards) don't lose anything off their drives. Either it has an equal effect for everyone or it is not fair at all... its not the long hitters fault that they can strike a ball better than grandpa at the local municipal course...

Don't get me wrong, there should still be an advantage for the guy who can swing the club faster, but not as much as it is currently. 

But the major motivation for doing this is to help combat the two biggest problems facing golf at the moment. The amount of time it takes to play a round and the costs of building and maintaining courses. It will allow for shorter courses that take less time to play, and cost less to maintain.

There are a few courses near me that would have been fairly short when built due to the size of the land they were on. They're now so short that it takes away a lot of the fun of playing them. The best way to play a number of the par 4s is mid iron off the tee and wedge in. These courses would have a new lease of life.


Unfortunately I can't see it happening. Look at the way the pros and equipment manufacturers are fighting back on the putter anchoring rule. There are too many whose (short term) interests would run contrary to this move, even though I think it would be a huge benefit to the long term health of the game.
. Uhh no! If you are going to makethe long hitters hit it shorter it better affect everyone otherwise that is a load of crap. That's like saying at some quarterbacks in the NFL throw it too far so if they throw it over a certain speed we aree going to put airbrakes in the ball.... just stupid! Don't penalize a group of people just because another group can't can't do it as well, maybe they could take lessons or work on something to hit it further... Just because grandpa at the municipal can't hit it 300 yards doesn't mean a strong 6foot+ tall man shouldn't have his game gimped so that he can keep up. Aging is a fact of life, and I fully expect to lose distance as I age, and I don't expect some manufacturers to step in and give me an advantage... that's what a handicap is for...
post #81 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by flintcreek6412 View Post

I really don't see a problem with the distance guys are hitting. The problem is that a lot of new longer courses have huge landing areas with well groomed rough. There is a 6000yrd course I play around here that is only rated 69.7/118. It plays way harder than a 6800 yrd 71.8/136 course for me and most I play with.

It has postage stamp greens, narrow fairways, brutally long rough and huge mature trees that block you on any errant shots. They even have an OB stripe painted between 2 parallel holes since one doglegs behind the tee of another to keep people from cutting the corner into the other fairway.

If you hit a 220 yrd drive at the edge of a fairway that angle and extra distance of a 280 drive will put you in deep rough or trees. Look how many times the big hitters are playing from other fairways or the gallery area. Make the driver a true risk/reward club. If you hit it long and exceptionally straight you deserve to be rewarded but if not, you should be penalized.

Lots of people watch those pro long drives with envy but I actually like watching guys tee off with 3 woods or 2i. It teaches viewers course management which we all need to learn. I get so tired of playing with guys bombing it 300yrd while we spend every other hole looking for errant shots while they post in the mid 90s.

Focus the courses on control over distance and make them dial it down or pay the price or reap the reward.


Great comment. The equipment isn't the problem, the courses encourage slovenly golf.

post #82 of 223

I'm not a fan of dialing anything back.

 

 

However, a 'retro' tournament of pros playing old style clubs and balls, wearing the old clothes, the old course conditions, etc etc etc - would a fantastic PR/charity event.
 

post #83 of 223

usa course rough is a joke. usa bunkers are a joke. they purposely make the courses easy then blame the equipment, what a joke! the only thing good about golf has been the advancement in equipment. Nicklaus and Palmer are dinosaurs and should just shut their pie holes before they kill what is left that the golfing public likes.

 

Speaking at U.S. Open Media Day Friday, Mike Davis, executive director of the USGA, promised "more birdies made - trust me - at this U.S. Open than any we have seen in recent history."

post #84 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by thanw View Post

usa course rough is a joke. usa bunkers are a joke. they purposely make the courses easy then blame the equipment, what a joke! the only thing good about golf has been the advancement in equipment. Nicklaus and Palmer are dinosaurs and should just shut their pie holes before they kill what is left that the golfing public likes.


You are missing the point that they now have to trick up the great old courses because otherwise the pro's will destroy them. Merion will have tiny narrow fairways and deep rough and hardly anyone will use drivers. If the course played normally, the winning score would be better than -10. Yet Merion is one of the world's best golf courses but has been rendered obsolete to the best players because of technology. Look at what the pro's do to Pebble Beach in the Pro-Am when the rough is down and the greens are receptive. Augusta National has been stretched so far that they had to buy a piece of land so they could extend the tee on 13.

 

Last, does the golfing public like tournaments where the winner is -24? That's the joke. Golf was never solely about distance. Read books by Mackenzie, Ross and the like and you will find that golf is supposed to be a strategic game where the land decides how to play a shot.

post #85 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSchott View Post


You are missing the point that they now have to trick up the great old courses because otherwise the pro's will destroy them. Merion will have tiny narrow fairways and deep rough and hardly anyone will use drivers. If the course played normally, the winning score would be better than -10. Yet Merion is one of the world's best golf courses but has been rendered obsolete to the best players because of technology. Look at what the pro's do to Pebble Beach in the Pro-Am when the rough is down and the greens are receptive. Augusta National has been stretched so far that they had to buy a piece of land so they could extend the tee on 13.

 

Last, does the golfing public like tournaments where the winner is -24? That's the joke. Golf was never solely about distance. Read books by Mackenzie, Ross and the like and you will find that golf is supposed to be a strategic game where the land decides how to play a shot.


It's strategic alright. That's why half the time they aim for the bunkers, because it is such a terrible place to be. lololololol

post #86 of 223

As a relatively short hitter, maybe an honest 230-240 at my best with roll, I'd hate to have my best drives go less than 200 yards.  On 400 yards + par 4s I'd have to play them as par 5s and hope to one putt.  My 3 wood will have to become a close friend from 160 out.  Golf is hard enough as it is.  Nope, I can't go along with Jack on this one.

post #87 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by NuclearMike View Post

As a relatively short hitter, maybe an honest 230-240 at my best with roll, I'd hate to have my best drives go less than 200 yards.  On 400 yards + par 4s I'd have to play them as par 5s and hope to one putt.  My 3 wood will have to become a close friend from 160 out.  Golf is hard enough as it is.  Nope, I can't go along with Jack on this one.


I would say that you and I are not able to take advantage of the newer golf ball technology anyway. Without enough clubhead speed we cannot compress a ball like a Pro V1 enough to use its capabilities. To tell the truth, although I am about 10 years older than when I was playing my best golf, despite the new balls I have lost distance. Even in my best days with steel shafted game improvement irons I hit a 7 iron 150 yards. Now I have livelier balls, Ping game improvement irons with graphite shafts and I hit a 7 iron 140 yards. I'm no where near good enough to take advantage of high end balls. Pros hit 7 irons 180-190 yards these days and even though their 7 iron loft is probably my 6 iron that still 20+ % further than me.

post #88 of 223

I've heard Jack comment on this a few times and he seems to go back and forth between it's an equipment issue to the tour guys are just a different player now. Yesterday he definitely mentioned that training and the resulting physical capabilities make a huge difference now. Anyone that watched the recent replay of the 71 US Open on GC likely noticed how different they played the game back then. Golf at the pro level has evolved and it's not just due to the equipment. Some of those guys despite being in their prime back then looked like my Grandfather when he was well past 50.

post #89 of 223

Read the whole thread.  Can't say I agree with reducing distance.

 

As I've posted a bunch of other places, I've been trying to break 80 for about 2 years.  Its extremely difficult and I haven't yet been able to do it consistently beyond the odd 76, 79 here and there.  About a year ago (had a thread on this too) I decided my 230 driver distance was holding me back and started a program to get longer.  I got fitted for a new driver with an ultra-light shaft, drilled center-face contact every day and, most importantly, implemented a fitness and strength routine from "Fix your Body, fix your swing" (which is a great book).

 

I added about 55 yards to my drives and I routinely drive it about 270-280 now.

 

I got about 2 strokes back.  No joke.

 

Golf is about scoring.  I was watching yesterday when Keegan hit a 364 yard drive with Jack in the booth.  He then hit 6 iron into a par 5, hit center of the green and two-putted for birdie.  A little while later a much shorter hitter hit a drive there, hit 3 wood, chipped, and tapped in for birdie.  Same exact score.

 

Golf is about mental toughness and scoring.  Hitting it farther is not all that important to the score.  I'd much rather have a great chipping game and hit it 240 than have a poor short game and hit it 280 (<- what i'm like now).  55 extra yards brought me down 2-3 strokes on average, but i'd have probably done better overall just getting a decent short game.

 

That said, it is *incredibly fun* to hit a 280 yard drive.  I don't want to hit it shorter.  Don't change it.  I wouldn't quit, but booming a big line drive off the tee is one of my favorite feelings in golf.  Leave it alone.

post #90 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by NuclearMike View Post

As a relatively short hitter, maybe an honest 230-240 at my best with roll, I'd hate to have my best drives go less than 200 yards.  On 400 yards + par 4s I'd have to play them as par 5s and hope to one putt.  My 3 wood will have to become a close friend from 160 out.  Golf is hard enough as it is.  Nope, I can't go along with Jack on this one.

I feel like Jack's idea might have made a lot of sense if they considered and implemented it BEFORE they started making all of these giant longer courses.  At this point, they seem to be taking care to keep balls and clubs from continuing to get longer, so I think we're fine where we are.

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