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Who Is Your All-time Favorite Golfer? - Page 7

post #109 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundandFury View Post


Typical mindless Phil lover.  There isn't a phonier professional athlete, let alone tour pro in the entire country.  It's shocking people can't see right through his utterly manufactured "gee golly" bullshit persona. 

 

Most importantly who would you rather drink with Phil or Tiger? Pretty f'ing obvious if you as me. 

It takes more than TV coverage for me to decide if someone is phony or not.  Heck, most of us are divorced at one point because it took longer than a day to see the light.  Too many people label others as Phil Lovers or Tiger Freaks...it gets old.  I spent the day playing golf with Tiger.  He was very pleasant and easy to chat with...but at the end of 5+ hours...I still didn't know him.  My daughter is friend of some of Phil's relatives here in CO...and I don't know him any better from that relationship either.  So, your bashing of Phil is a result of what knowledge?

post #110 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by JesseV View Post

Did you actually meet and or know either Bobby Jones and or Mr. Hogan?

 

"And, unlike contemporaries such as Bobby Jones (a bigot) and Hogan (an arrogant and aloof ass)"

 

That is what I disagree with.  As far as I know Hogan was devoted to his wife and by all accounts off the course was a true gentleman, and was very charitable and was devoted to those he considered a friend.  Bobby Jones was a gentleman even though he grew up in a different era and time.

 

I will agree with what you state about Nelson because by all historical and known accounts he was a gentleman of the finest sort.

 

But I suppose the arrogant and aloof among us can always judge the character of men they never met nor knew who are long dead and not around to defend themselves.

Totally concur!

post #111 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisguy View Post

Care to explain your disagreement?  If anything I said wasn't accurate, please feel free to correct it, including a link to your sources.


I don't see any citations or footnotes supporting your claim Bobby Jones was a bigot...but the dude who disagrees with you has to provide some?

post #112 of 201

Rory McIlroy, the guy has the nicest technique when he swings, it's a thing of beauty!

post #113 of 201
Today: Webb Simpson, Phil Mickelson
Senior: Jack Nicklaus, George Archer
Older: Sam Snead, Tommy Armour
Overall : Jack Nicklaus
post #114 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by JesseV View Post

Did you actually meet and or know either Bobby Jones and or Mr. Hogan?

 

"And, unlike contemporaries such as Bobby Jones (a bigot) and Hogan (an arrogant and aloof ass)"

 

That is what I disagree with.  As far as I know Hogan was devoted to his wife and by all accounts off the course was a true gentleman, and was very charitable and was devoted to those he considered a friend.  Bobby Jones was a gentleman even though he grew up in a different era and time.

 

I will agree with what you state about Nelson because by all historical and known accounts he was a gentleman of the finest sort.

 

But I suppose the arrogant and aloof among us can always judge the character of men they never met nor knew who are long dead and not around to defend themselves.

I saw in another post that someone commented that many members of this site will deny racism no matter what proof is presented, so perhaps there is no point in responding to this challenge to support my statements.

 

I'll start this off by saying that my comment about Jones was originally based upon a memory of something I read long-ago about some country club official who vowed never to let black golfers play at his club, and believed it was Bobby Jones. Doing a bit of research, I now realize that it was probably not Jones who I remember reading about making those comments. It was his friend and Augusta National co-founder Clifford Roberts (see below).

 

No matter.

 

No black players were invited to play in the Masters during Bobby Jones' lifetime (fyi, he was made president-for-life of Augusta National in 1966).

 

Pete Brown became the first African-American player to win a PGA-sanctioned event, the Waco Turner Open, in 1964. He also won the 1970 Andy Williams San Diego Invitational.

 

Charlie Sifford won the 1967 Greater Hartford Open and won the 1969 Los Angeles Open. Source: PGA: http://www.pga.com/timeline-african-american-achievements-in-golf

 

So there we have it, two black golfers each won two tournaments on the PGA tour. In four separate years during Jones' lifetime (he died in December of 1971) a black golfer won on the PGA tour. Neither Brown nor Sifford received invitations to the Masters. Four separate times, black golfers were passed over for an invitation (the Masters is an invitational tournament and the Masters' Committee can invite anyone they want) and were deemed unworthy as golfers to be included in the field for the Masters, notwithstanding that they were worthy enough golfers to have beaten over 100 other professional golfers and had won PGA tournaments. In fact, they were passed over as two-time tour winners. The Masters Committee invited South African golfer Harold Henning 10 times to play at the championship while Jones was alive. From what I can tell from Wikipedia, Henning's career was no more impressive than Brown's or Siffords - the difference is that Henning was white.

 

Unquestionably, if Bobby Jones had said "Gentlemen, there's this fellow named Sifford, he's a tour winner, he's clearly good enough to play in our tournament, and I think we should include him in this year's field" Sifford or Brown would have been invited. But Jones did not do that, did he? He did not want a black golfer playing in the Masters, otherwise one would have been invited.

 

Let's talk about what sort of black people Jones did have at Augusta National. "Before 1982 all players in the Masters were required to use the services of an Augusta National Club caddy, who by club tradition was always an African American.[29] Indeed, club co-founder Clifford Roberts is reputed to have said, "As long as I'm alive, golfers will be white, and caddies will be black." " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masters_Tournament#Other_traditions. Why the white jumpsuit? Surely it was to make it abundantly clear that any black person on the grounds of Augusta National was there as a servant - it was a uniform akin to a prison jumpsuit. But rather than admit that, the Masters Committee continued to require the jumpsuit after 1982 when players could bring their own caddies.

 

Of course, we'll hear some sniveling retorts about how racism was a part of Southern culture in the 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's and early 70's and how we can't blame an individual for simply being a part of that culture. And such an argument is a load of crap. Personal integrity is above societal trends. Tom Watson had personal integrity when he quit the Kansas City Country Club because of its racist policies. Bobby Jones had no such personal integrity. The argument "You can't blame an individual for a society's prejudices" holds even less credence when that individual is a leader and acknowledged as a great man, as was the case with Bobby Jones. I personally don't fully understand the exceedingly high level of respect that certain sports figures have had, but only a very few athletes have been revered as Bobby Jones was. If he wanted to end racism at Augusta and at the Masters, single-handedly he could have accomplished it - he WAS Augusta, he had that amount of clout and influence. The fact that racism at Augusta National continued during his lifetime meant that he didn't want the status quo to change. That makes him a racist.

 

As for Ben Hogan being an aloof, arrogant ass, if you are not familiar with his reputation for rude curtness and for ignoring people greeting him, well, you've never heard much about him. Hogan refused to write a letter of recommendation for Fred Hawkins, one of his most frequent practice partners, and as a result, Hawkins did not receive a job offer at a country club; rather understandably, Hawkins resented Hogan for it years later http://armchairgolfblog.blogspot.com/2007/11/conversation-with-ben-hogans-practice.html . Hogan did not acknowledge, let alone thank, playing partners' compliments of his shots - that's not focus, that's rudeness. See http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/golf-masters/2007-03/20070330benhogan?currentPage=3 If you're the Hogan fan you claim to be, you're well aware of the time that a young Gary Player wanted to talk with Hogan, who, upon learning that Player used Dunlop clubs, not Hogan clubs, refused and told him to go talk to Mr. Dunlop.http://www.nytimes.com/1997/07/27/sports/ben-hogan-s-real-secret-a-mystique.html I'd call someone like that an ass and most people would agree with me. Hogan was once asked about golf balls, stated he'd play a two-piece surlyn ball, when asked why stated "Because it's better" and when asked why it was better, he refused to answer and walked off. http://www.golfsdrivingforce.com/2011/08/long-putter-its-better.html Finally, I think almost everyone would agree that the people one likes and dislikes says a lot about a person - would you agree? Well, Ben Hogan disliked a certain rather well-regarded golfer, a guy you may have heard of - his name was Arnold Palmer. Source? Arnie himself - http://www.arnoldpalmer.com/experience/exhibits/superseven.aspx Apparently when Palmer first started playing on tour, Hogan made some snide comment about him not not belonging on tour.

 

And your argument about Hogan caring about his wife - what does that have to do with anything?  70 years ago a little man with a mustache cared about his wife.  Her name was Eva Braun, but we tend not to think very highly of her husband, do we?

 

But hey - just ignore me.  For an arrogant and aloof person like myself to dare to judge your precious "Mr." Jones and your "Mr." Hogan - I'm sure I don't know anything at all about your heroes and you know everything important there is to know about them.

post #115 of 201

Wisguy - Why are you so fixated on the subject? You devoted a heck of a lot of time to degrade Jones and Hogan. That pent-up need to vent can't be healthy.

 

It's interesting to hear "history revisionists" criticize the morality of earlier eras (Lincoln, Washington, Jefferson, to name just a few past presidents), when the realities of life were so much different than now. I suppose looking backwards with today's mindset can lead to a better understanding of the past, but the practice of denigrating historical figures seems like a waste of time.

post #116 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmonious View Post

Wisguy - Why are you so fixated on the subject? You devoted a heck of a lot of time to degrade Jones and Hogan. That pent-up need to vent can't be healthy.

 

It's interesting to hear "history revisionists" criticize the morality of earlier eras (Lincoln, Washington, Jefferson, to name just a few past presidents), when the realities of life were so much different than now. I suppose looking backwards with today's mindset can lead to a better understanding of the past, but the practice of denigrating historical figures seems like a waste of time.

 

I agree that it needs to be put into the proper context.  However, I don't think it's a complete waste of time.  To this day there are people that put those folks on a pedestal and refuse to acknowledge their indiscretions and harbor the same imperfections sometimes over a hundred years later.  A lot of the world has changed, but some people refuse to, as they live in a bubble.  I would argue the revisionists are the ones who would like to erase those indiscretions as if they never existed.  

 

How relevant those indiscretions are is what needs to be put into context, as being a bigot today is a bit more revealing of character than it was back then.

post #117 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmonious View Post

Wisguy - Why are you so fixated on the subject? You devoted a heck of a lot of time to degrade Jones and Hogan. That pent-up need to vent can't be healthy.

 

It's interesting to hear "history revisionists" criticize the morality of earlier eras (Lincoln, Washington, Jefferson, to name just a few past presidents), when the realities of life were so much different than now. I suppose looking backwards with today's mindset can lead to a better understanding of the past, but the practice of denigrating historical figures seems like a waste of time.

I get it - attack the guy who candidly and accurately labels popular heroes for being less-than-wonderful human beings and tell him he's wrong and has no proof.  So if he doesn't feel like taking the time to play into the silly little games of the apologists, he's wrong for lack of proof.  And if he does prove his opinions are indeed correct and you can't come up with an accurate and intelligent substantive response, attack that damn son of a bitch on a personal basis - tell him he's "fixated" or "obsessed" or call into question his mental health.  Yep, that's what small people do.

 

There's a huge difference between what happened two hundred years ago and what happened in my lifetime, so your comments about historical revisionists are not well-taken.  For a powerful figure like Bobby Jones, the realities of life in the 1960's and 1970's, when the old ways were clearly already heading toward extinction, were whatever he wanted to make of them.  He was a commanding figure who did not need the approval of anyone else and did not need to follow along with societal trends in a lemming-like fashion.  He did what he wanted and he did not want to treat blacks as equivalent to whites, plain and simple.

 

I have no problem with admiring and marveling at the golf that Hogan and Jones played - they did amazing things, tournament after tournament, with relatively primitive equipment.  They truly rank among the all-time greatest golfers (and athletes of any sort) in history.  But great men - great persons?  No, not by a long shot.  Neither Jones nor Hogan deserve the sort of reverence that inspires their fans to refer to them as "Mister" Jones or "Mister" Hogan.  One needs to do more than show skill in a game hitting a ball with some sticks to earn that sort of respect.

post #118 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisguy View Post

I get it - attack the guy who candidly and accurately labels popular heroes for being less-than-wonderful human beings and tell him he's wrong and has no proof.  So if he doesn't feel like taking the time to play into the silly little games of the apologists, he's wrong for lack of proof.  And if he does prove his opinions are indeed correct and you can't come up with an accurate and intelligent substantive response, attack that damn son of a bitch on a personal basis - tell him he's "fixated" or "obsessed" or call into question his mental health.  Yep, that's what small people do.

 

There's a huge difference between what happened two hundred years ago and what happened in my lifetime, so your comments about historical revisionists are not well-taken.  For a powerful figure like Bobby Jones, the realities of life in the 1960's and 1970's, when the old ways were clearly already heading toward extinction, were whatever he wanted to make of them.  He was a commanding figure who did not need the approval of anyone else and did not need to follow along with societal trends in a lemming-like fashion.  He did what he wanted and he did not want to treat blacks as equivalent to whites, plain and simple.

 

I have no problem with admiring and marveling at the golf that Hogan and Jones played - they did amazing things, tournament after tournament, with relatively primitive equipment.  They truly rank among the all-time greatest golfers (and athletes of any sort) in history.  But great men - great persons?  No, not by a long shot.  Neither Jones nor Hogan deserve the sort of reverence that inspires their fans to refer to them as "Mister" Jones or "Mister" Hogan.  One needs to do more than show skill in a game hitting a ball with some sticks to earn that sort of respect.

So you're here to create arguments as most trolls do on various forums........... Pitiful

post #119 of 201

You know, the more and more I watch Rory, the more I like him. I can't help but admire his subtle casual beahviour and demeanor. Personally, those traits are admirable. I then look at Tiger, no question he's the best golfer of all time but then you look at his attitude and his "bad moods" he gets into on the course and it makes it really hard to like the guy. Would I watch him? Of course. Would I want to hang out with him for a meet and greet? No. Rory on the other hand has that personable attitude and down to earth demenaour. So in short, Rory is my favourite.

post #120 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisguy View Post

I get it - attack the guy who candidly and accurately labels popular heroes for being less-than-wonderful human beings and tell him he's wrong and has no proof.  So if he doesn't feel like taking the time to play into the silly little games of the apologists, he's wrong for lack of proof.  And if he does prove his opinions are indeed correct and you can't come up with an accurate and intelligent substantive response, attack that damn son of a bitch on a personal basis - tell him he's "fixated" or "obsessed" or call into question his mental health.  Yep, that's what small people do.

 

There's a huge difference between what happened two hundred years ago and what happened in my lifetime, so your comments about historical revisionists are not well-taken.  For a powerful figure like Bobby Jones, the realities of life in the 1960's and 1970's, when the old ways were clearly already heading toward extinction, were whatever he wanted to make of them.  He was a commanding figure who did not need the approval of anyone else and did not need to follow along with societal trends in a lemming-like fashion.  He did what he wanted and he did not want to treat blacks as equivalent to whites, plain and simple.

 

I have no problem with admiring and marveling at the golf that Hogan and Jones played - they did amazing things, tournament after tournament, with relatively primitive equipment.  They truly rank among the all-time greatest golfers (and athletes of any sort) in history.  But great men - great persons?  No, not by a long shot.  Neither Jones nor Hogan deserve the sort of reverence that inspires their fans to refer to them as "Mister" Jones or "Mister" Hogan.  One needs to do more than show skill in a game hitting a ball with some sticks to earn that sort of respect.


Just take a pill and relax, guy. No need to insult people who are just calling into question why you are so adamant about attacking, instead of trying to understand what the realities of the times were like for Jones, and the realities and history for Hogan.

 

As far as your assessment of the deep South in the 1960's and 70's, I can assure you that it was a very different place then. Your insistence that Jones could do whatever he wanted, without the approval of the Augusta National membership, is a little naive.

post #121 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisguy View Post

I get it - attack the guy who candidly and accurately labels popular heroes for being less-than-wonderful human beings and tell him he's wrong and has no proof.  So if he doesn't feel like taking the time to play into the silly little games of the apologists, he's wrong for lack of proof.  And if he does prove his opinions are indeed correct and you can't come up with an accurate and intelligent substantive response, attack that damn son of a bitch on a personal basis - tell him he's "fixated" or "obsessed" or call into question his mental health.  Yep, that's what small people do.

 

There's a huge difference between what happened two hundred years ago and what happened in my lifetime, so your comments about historical revisionists are not well-taken.  For a powerful figure like Bobby Jones, the realities of life in the 1960's and 1970's, when the old ways were clearly already heading toward extinction, were whatever he wanted to make of them.  He was a commanding figure who did not need the approval of anyone else and did not need to follow along with societal trends in a lemming-like fashion.  He did what he wanted and he did not want to treat blacks as equivalent to whites, plain and simple.

 

I have no problem with admiring and marveling at the golf that Hogan and Jones played - they did amazing things, tournament after tournament, with relatively primitive equipment.  They truly rank among the all-time greatest golfers (and athletes of any sort) in history.  But great men - great persons?  No, not by a long shot.  Neither Jones nor Hogan deserve the sort of reverence that inspires their fans to refer to them as "Mister" Jones or "Mister" Hogan.  One needs to do more than show skill in a game hitting a ball with some sticks to earn that sort of respect.

 

Well, given that your last post was seriously the longest shit I've ever seen on this site, I don't think fixated is too strong of a word...

 

Also, if you can't understand historical context, I don't know if you should go around calling anyone small.  Shit changes man.  FDR and Kennedy didn't do anything for gay people, and I guaranty they would have been incredibly opposed to something like same sex marriage.  Given public opinion has shifted drastically, does that make them bigots? I don't think so. 

post #122 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by saturday View Post

I then look at Tiger, no question he's the best golfer of all time but then you look at his attitude and his "bad moods" he gets into on the course and it makes it really hard to like the guy. 

 

I guess you missed what Rory did a couple months ago.  His "bad mood" rivaled nearly anything we've seen from a golfer on the course.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundandFury View Post

 Shit changes man.  FDR and Kennedy didn't do anything for gay people, and I guaranty they would have been incredibly opposed to something like same sex marriage.  Given public opinion has shifted drastically, does that make them bigots? I don't think so. 

 

Yes, if they were bigots then, they were bigots.  It can't really be any more clear than that.  But as you said, stuff changes.  Some guys have changed their stance on gay rights just over the past few weeks.  Although for some of them it was purely political or out of self-preservation (family interests), there are others who simply realized the error of their ways.  

 

If I was a bigot in the 80s but have since changed my tune, it doesn't change the fact that I was a bigot in the 80s.

post #123 of 201

I liked the part where Bobby Jones and Ben Hogan "...showed some skill in a game hitting a ball with some sticks..."

 

Also, Willie Mays "showed some skill hitting and chasing a ball," Albert Einstein, "showed some skill relating space and time and Louis Pastuer "boiled some milk."

post #124 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post

I guess you missed what Rory did a couple months ago.  His "bad mood" rivaled nearly anything we've seen from a golfer on the course.


Yes, if they were bigots then, they were bigots.  It can't really be any more clear than that.  But as you said, stuff changes.  Some guys have changed their stance on gay rights just over the past few weeks.  Although for some of them it was purely political or out of self-preservation (family interests), there are others who simply realized the error of their ways.  

If I was a bigot in the 80s but have since changed my tune, it doesn't change the fact that I was a bigot in the 80s.

I didn't miss that, I'm just saying he's not a constant dick like tiger. Every golfer will have his ups and downs but just that he's more down to earth.
post #125 of 201

To me it's still Tiger. 

Coming back the way he did after going very deep, just my biggest respect to him.

And he is starting to dominate the way he did about 5 years ago.

He works so freekin hard on his game, and it's paying off obviously.

If he wins this week at augusta there will be no doubt about that i think.

 

What he did or does off the course i really don't care, well to be honest i wish

i slept with all those girls. The were damn hot you know.  

post #126 of 201

 I would pick a mix:

 

- the elegance as Ben Hogan

- the skill and strength as Sam Snead

- the power and aggressiveness of Arnold Palmer

- the tenacity of Gary Player

- the technique of Jack Nicklaus

- the coldness of Tom Watson.

- and, as Ben Crenshaw said, “He plays shots I don´t even see in my dreams”

 

Of course, the one who had it all:    Seve Ballesteros,

 

... who other could have made the miracle in Medinah?

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