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Can someone please explain the Aimpoint putting technique? - Page 4

post #55 of 76

A timely post:

http://aimpointgolf.wordpress.com/2013/03/15/i-use-aimpoint-because-i-am-a-feel-player/

 

 

Quote:
AimPoint Instruction is feel based. I don’t know how to say it any other way. That’s the fact. Break Prediction, on the other hand, is science. We offer both. We teach the feel in order to effectively use the science. Don’t get me wrong.
post #56 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beachcomber View Post

Clam, are you using Aimpoint?  Just curious, as I know you're an Edel guy now... And most go hand and hand. 

 

No, I'm not using Aimpoint....yet.    I will, because I absolutely believe in the approach and the ability to reduce much of the guess work through physics and proven science.    However, I've been rationing my golf expenses a bit since I joined a startup company a couple months ago and am working without salary right now.   My wife doesn't mind my playing (and I'm doing that a lot), but I'm trying to not run too afoul of her generosity.     I'd join the SoCal group outing but I'll probably be in Asia at that time.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by logman View Post

Couldn't agree more. And if your happy to accept that you cant determine whether your putt is a 2.5 degree or 4 degree and your stimp can vary between holes etc etc then Physics just becomes Physicsy. I'm not invoking the old garbage in garbage out thing cause that's way to blunt and in accurate. But you get my point?

 

Glad you agree that physics works.    But it seems you're trying to make this a completely digital argument where if Aimpoint cannot deliver a perfect solution to you all wrapped up with a pretty little bow then it must be worthless.    Yes, you can't tell within 0.1 degrees what the exact slope is.   Yes, the stimp can vary slightly between holes.    Yes, the wind might be blowing a bit, as well as other variables.      But what it will do is get you very close to the ball park with much more certainty, reducing the effect of a lot of those variables.    It is still a game of skill, but Aimpoint will augment one's skill with a practical way to take advantage of the physics to make you more effective.     Why is that so difficult to grasp, or perhaps even more important why is this so argumentative?  

post #57 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by logman View Post

And if your happy to accept that you cant determine whether your putt is a 2.5 degree or 4 degree and your stimp can vary between holes etc etc then Physics just becomes Physicsy.

I realize Logman is in the penalty box, and doesn't listen anyway, but there have been numerous people give the "yeah but the stimp can vary hole to hole" response to why Aimpoint is stupid, so this is for all of them.  First of all, that logic is just a variation of what politicians like to do often, which is to say ... "Well this bill isn't perfect and it won't solve ALL of our problems in one fell swoop, sooooooo f%$k it."  Which, needless to say (but I'm gonna say it anyways :)), is freaking beyond idiotic.

 

1.  Even if the stimp were to vary a bit hole to hole but ... seeing as how the same guys mow the same greens with the same frequency with the same mowers at the same settings on the same days, and its the same type of grass, it's not going to vary by that much at all.

 

2.  Secondly, on a lot of putts, the difference between 1 entire stimp point on an otherwise equal-parameter putt is not as much as you think.  I'm not looking at my chart right now, so this is off memory, but I think the difference in a 10' putt at the most severe slope going directly across the slope is 2 inches.

 

3.  And this is the biggie.  You guys act like learning Aimpoint means forgetting everything you already knew.  You don't have to sell your soul - and along with it, your perception - when you take the class.  If you don't use aimpoint, and you play a course that has these magical, stimp jumping greens, it's still going to take you a hole or two to notice.  You think just because we have a chart, we can't also see that the greens on the course are a little slower or faster than the practice green appeared to be?  We're not robots.  We're just golfers armed with one extra, very powerful tool to help us putt better.

 

And, again, it's all about confidence.  How many times have you heard somebody say that you're better off being confident in your read or club selection than you are in being "right?"  AImpoint just further strengthens that confidence.

post #58 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

I realize Logman is in the penalty box, and doesn't listen anyway, but there have been numerous people give the "yeah but the stimp can vary hole to hole" response to why Aimpoint is stupid, so this is for all of them.  First of all, that logic is just a variation of what politicians like to do often, which is to say ... "Well this bill isn't perfect and it won't solve ALL of our problems in one fell swoop, sooooooo f%$k it."  Which, needless to say (but I'm gonna say it anyways :)), is freaking beyond idiotic.

1.  Even if the stimp were to vary a bit hole to hole but ... seeing as how the same guys mow the same greens with the same frequency with the same mowers at the same settings on the same days, and its the same type of grass, it's not going to vary by that much at all.

2.  Secondly, on a lot of putts, the difference between 1 entire stimp point on an otherwise equal-parameter putt is not as much as you think.  I'm not looking at my chart right now, so this is off memory, but I think the difference in a 10' putt at the most severe slope going directly across the slope is 2 inches.

3.  And this is the biggie.  You guys act like learning Aimpoint means forgetting everything you already knew.  You don't have to sell your soul - and along with it, your perception - when you take the class.  If you don't use aimpoint, and you play a course that has these magical, stimp jumping greens, it's still going to take you a hole or two to notice.  You think just because we have a chart, we can't also see that the greens on the course are a little slower or faster than the practice green appeared to be?  We're not robots.  We're just golfers armed with one extra, very powerful tool to help us putt better.

And, again, it's all about confidence.  How many times have you heard somebody say that you're better off being confident in your read or club selection than you are in being "right?"  AImpoint just further strengthens that confidence.

You forgot:

4. There isn't any other putting method that can detect changes in stimp from green to green (and if there is, that can be integrated into AimPoint). If a non-AimPointer can realize that a certain green is probably running a tiny bit faster since it has spent the entire day baking in the hot sun and is abnormally crusty, so can someone who uses AimPoint. There's no mutual exclusivity here.
post #59 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clambake View Post

No, I'm not using Aimpoint....yet.    I will, because I absolutely believe in the approach and the ability to reduce much of the guess work through physics and proven science.    However, I've been rationing my golf expenses a bit since I joined a startup company a couple months ago and am working without salary right now.   My wife doesn't mind my playing (and I'm doing that a lot), but I'm trying to not run too afoul of her generosity.     I'd join the SoCal group outing but I'll probably be in Asia at that time.  

No worries about missing out on this group outing... There will be more in the future.  We're trying to make it a quarterly event.  Talks were going back and forth and we are actually looking at doing the 3rd event this Summer in your neck of the woods.... San Diego.

 

And good luck with the new gig...  Hopefully it works out for you!

post #60 of 76
I have done aimpoint and decided not to use it. Like people said above its not for everyone. I did learn from it and took some stuff away from it that I still keep in mind. There is no genious in green reading its extremely simple as long as you practice your speed so you can picture your ball rolling past the cup the same distance everytime...that's the only thing u really need to know. With tht being said I would never tell anyone not to go to an aimpoint school if given the opportunity
post #61 of 76
There aren't any Aimpoint teachers near me. I wonder why they haven't put together a DVD package for folks to buy. I'm sure personal instruction would be better, but couldn't the method be effectively conveyed through DVD's?

I'm curious about this as it's something I would consider purchasing.
post #62 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by boil3rmak3r View Post

I'm sure personal instruction would be better, but couldn't the method be effectively conveyed through DVDs?

In a word: no.
post #63 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post


In a word: no.


yeah, thats what ive surmised.  ive done some looking around and tried to learn as much as i can (just learning to use my feet has done a lot) but i know that ill be in the dark compared to taking a class.

post #64 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by logman View Post

example 3: a COMPLETE misread of a green followed by the WORST execution of a putt ever combining to sink a 20 footer......NICE!

 

Sounds like you would benefit from learning AimPoint.

 

e2_whistling.gif

post #65 of 76
Just had to chime in, as I saw one guy get banned for not agreeing (only makes you look foolish, moderator. Kinda sad). I'm a very good player, and a great putter. I don't use aim point because I don't need it. I've spent decades learning how to read greens, my opinion is qualified. I haven't taken the course, but I have to disagree with Stacy Lewis comment about ignoring everything but slope. First of all, how does aim point factor in grain, and different types of grass? That can affect a putt much more than half an inch on a twenty foot putt. Before I ramble on trying to tear down aim point like some others, I'll stop because that isn't my intent. I like the idea, and judging by the success of folks who have used it, is recommend it for the majority of golfers. Spend time and money mastering the short game: DUH. Of course. What I take issue with is the implication that it is the final word in green reading, that those who don't use it are inferior green readers or putters. Come play me for your paycheck if you want to go there, I will show you what great putting looks like, no aim point necessary. I don't argue that there is solid physics and science behind it, and that if you don't know how to read greens it's a great tool/skill. But if you have confidence in another method and it works, by all means keep improving your way. Sometimes trying something different just because it's new and working for a bunch of other golfers can ruin your confidence. Happens to guys all the time. Aim point sounds great, but some people don't think in terms of face angles and decimal points. Seve, anyone? There is an artistry in green reading, and that portion isn't what aim point is big on. Valuable knowledge, yes. A great method and skill for most, yes. The one and only infallible way to read greens if you want to be your best, no. Worth banning a person from a thread because they don't agree with you? No. That move is classless. Golf fitness helps, but the stadlers, pat reed, Walter hagan, etc. could give you a darn good match anyway. See where I'm going with this? Golf is full of different ways to succeed. People who ostracize and exclude others because they aren't on the latest bandwagon are just a detriment to golf instruction in general, yet many of the qualified teachers do this. Strength in numbers etc. wish you all well but come on people one good system isn't the only system. PS: regarding the Stacey Lewis comment, go play some golf near superstition mountain or near the Mississippi River, etc... You'll find that 0.5 inches margin put to the test and you'll be scratching your head. Grain and underground water drainage affect putts also, the local topography should never be ignored just because actual slope in front of you says one thing. Time of day and position of the sun affects grain, as well as temperature and humidity, and wind. Didn't hear anything about all that in aimpoint, but I've never taken the course. Reading greens isn't all that hard once you learn, and aimpoint certainly can give folks a way to get much better. Best of luck out there, play well everyone, but MOST importantly be good to each other. It's just golf.
post #66 of 76
 
Logman Stuff (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfobaggins View Post

Just had to chime in, as I saw one guy get banned for not agreeing (only makes you look foolish, moderator. Kinda sad).

 

@logman was not banned for "not agreeing." He was restricted from this thread for reasons clearly stated:

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

I'm blocking you from this thread because you've been told this several times now and simply refuse to acknowledge it. You simply keep posting the same drivel time and time again. True to your nature, you're not contributing anything - you're simply poking.

 

He contributed nothing. He poked. He refused to acknowledge the points of others. It was not a beneficial conversation.

 

@logman was later banned for continued poor behavior. We ban almost nobody here (outside of spammers) - far fewer than other sites. Disagreement is encouraged. If everyone just agreed, it would be pointless. Just a bunch of people nodding their heads. Every post after the first one would just be "I agree!" Like I said… pointless.

 

I'm not sure why you bumped a thread that's over two years old to say your piece, but the above is the truth.

 

 

The below addresses your qualms (or whatever you want to call it) about AimPoint, but it boils down to two things:

  • AimPoint is incredibly accurate. It's largely based in fact, and your bias is probably showing when you say some things about grain. Mark Sweeney and others have done the tests, done the math.
  • Nobody is saying that you HAVE to take AimPoint to be a good green reader. I was a good green reader before AimPoint. I'm better now. Others are not as good as I was (or you are) and AimPoint helps them. Nobody says if you don't take AimPoint you're a lousy green reader.

 

AimPoint Stuff (Click to show)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by golfobaggins View Post

I don't use aim point because I don't need it. I've spent decades learning how to read greens, my opinion is qualified.

 

You might not need it. It benefits some players more than others.

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfobaggins View Post

I haven't taken the course, but I have to disagree with Stacy Lewis comment about ignoring everything but slope. First of all, how does aim point factor in grain, and different types of grass? That can affect a putt much more than half an inch on a twenty foot putt.

 

Here's the truth, which I have the sneaking suspicion you're not really open to hearing (please prove me wrong).

 

Grain doesn't affect the amount of break very much at all. Mark Sweeney has rolled balls across the grainiest of greens and checked the actual amount of break against the determined measurements. It's within about an inch over twenty feet. His physics is accurate - it's just math, so it's not really an opinion - and the greens are laser mapped to about 1mm every cm, so the maps are accurate as well.

 

Grain affects the speed of a putt, and AimPoint has the means to adjust for green speeds. Into the grain? You read for a slower speed. Vice versa down grain. But even then, only significant grain, and only a little adjustment.

 

Your assertion that it "can affect a putt much more than half an inch" is factually incorrect. It's your colored by your perception.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by golfobaggins View Post

Spend time and money mastering the short game: DUH. Of course.

 

Oh man… I'm not sure you're going to agree with much here. The short game isn't terribly important (relative to your full swing). Putting is even less important. These are, again, far closer to fact (generalized, I would call them facts - on a per-golfer basis stuff can change).

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfobaggins View Post

What I take issue with is the implication that it is the final word in green reading, that those who don't use it are inferior green readers or putters.

 

I don't think that's been implied. I'm sorry you took it that way. I have said a few times that I was a pretty darn good green reader prior to AimPoint. I'm a bit better now.

 

For those who don't know how to read greens very well, though, it serves a very, very useful purpose. It's incredibly accurate. Nobody's said that those who use it are inferior green readers (though some have said that they were inferior green readers prior to taking their AimPoint class).

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfobaggins View Post

Come play me for your paycheck if you want to go there, I will show you what great putting looks like, no aim point necessary.

 

That kind of weird macho approach doesn't really play very well.

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfobaggins View Post

I don't argue that there is solid physics and science behind it, and that if you don't know how to read greens it's a great tool/skill. But if you have confidence in another method and it works, by all means keep improving your way.

 

Why are you even arguing here? Nobody here would disagree with this statement: "If you're a great reader of greens, you don't need AimPoint." People who benefit from AimPoint are average to poor green readers.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by golfobaggins View Post

Sometimes trying something different just because it's new and working for a bunch of other golfers can ruin your confidence.

 

I don't think AimPoint ruins anyone's confidence. C'mon…

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by golfobaggins View Post

Aim point sounds great, but some people don't think in terms of face angles and decimal points.

 

You don't understand AimPoint as well as you should to criticize it. It's not about face angles and decimal points. It's about feel.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by golfobaggins View Post

Time of day and position of the sun affects grain

 

Blades of grass aren't sunflowers.

 

post #67 of 76

I read the entire thread and only one poster volunteered how many strokes he improved, from 35 to 31.   I'd appreciate if others who used AimPoint publish how many strokes they have improved, before and after.  I am just trying to see where my next lesson (Edel, more ball striking lessons) money should go toward.    I am pretty good at lag part of putting but don't make enough medium putts.  I average about one 3-putt per round.   My total putts per round is typically 32 - 34.

post #68 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post

I read the entire thread and only one poster volunteered how many strokes he improved, from 35 to 31.   I'd appreciate if others who used AimPoint publish how many strokes they have improved, before and after.  I am just trying to see where my next lesson (Edel, more ball striking lessons) money should go toward.    I am pretty good at lag part of putting but don't make enough medium putts.  I average about one 3-putt per round.   My total putts per round is typically 32 - 34.

Our students have improved from between 1 (scratch player) to 8+ strokes with AimPoint.

Your misread putts won't be misread and your other reads will be more accurate.

Most people can't quantify it directly because they aren't keeping a ton of stats and are working on all facets of their game. They just know or have a sense that they are better green readers.

Green reading is an SV3 skill.
post #69 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post
 

I read the entire thread and only one poster volunteered how many strokes he improved, from 35 to 31.   I'd appreciate if others who used AimPoint publish how many strokes they have improved, before and after.  I am just trying to see where my next lesson (Edel, more ball striking lessons) money should go toward.    I am pretty good at lag part of putting but don't make enough medium putts.  I average about one 3-putt per round.   My total putts per round is typically 32 - 34.

As Erik said, some of us would have a really hard time quantifying it because it's impossible to isolate it.  I learned Aimpoint, learned the importance of a properly fitted putter (and purchased one) and learned a new and improved putting stroke (from Erik's "decelerate" thread) all within the span of about a year, perhaps even less.  My putting has improved tremendously due in part to all three of those, but no way could I pinpoint how much due to each.

 

If I had to make a guess, I'd probably say that Aimpoint has helped somewhere between 1 and 2 strokes per round.  But, again, that is a guess.

post #70 of 76

There's a very basic explanation in this month's Golf Magazine.  For me personally, it's been the best thing I've done for my game since, well, in a long time.  A month or so ago, my swing, flawed as it is, was really f'ing on.  I was hitting fairways and greens, including a good amount of par 5's in two.  However, my scores stagnated in the low 80s due in very large part to my shockingly shitty putting.  I don't think I can convey how bad I was.  

 

Without getting into the actual process, putting is now the best part of my game at the moment, and despite being in the middle of re-working my swing, my scoring average has only gone up 3-5 strokes.  What Aimpoint did for me is take the guess work out of the putt. Whereas I used to stand over a put and think "I have no f'ing clue what this is going to do", I'm now confident over my line and just focus on speed.  It's not magic however.  You have to practice it, especially getting comfortable feeling the break, and you need to practice distance control just like any other putt reading approach.  

post #71 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

Green reading is an SV3 skill.

 

What does this mean?

 

And in Aimpoint site, they list instructors with different "Level Name" from 1 - 5.   What does number mean?  I did a quick search on it without success?

 

Thanks in advance.

post #72 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post

What does this mean?
Its from LSW. (Means it's important)
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