tuffluck's Tough Love Ball Striking Thread

[tuffluck]

i don't personally like when people say "take lessons," because your swing may be just fine.  that's something you know though, not me.

i'm kind of in the same boat...for instance yesterday shot a 92 with two quintuple bogeys.  take those away and i'm in the mid 80s for sure.  lessons wouldn't have helped my round.  honestly not sure what would have helped my round--there was a bit of bad luck involved.

overall though i don't know what to tell you, ha!  i have days where putting isn't working and driving rocks, the next day it's the vice versa.  i don't understand how people shoot 80s consistently or 70s unless they are playing a whole, whole lot.  if you are a golfer that goes out once a month, mid 90s might be as good as you get...

then again agreeing with the other poster, a lesson could help if you aren't a good ball striker or have bad course management.

[14ledo81]

Originally Posted by tuffluck

i'm kind of in the same boat...for instance yesterday shot a 92 with two quintuple bogeys.  take those away and i'm in the mid 80s for sure.  lessons wouldn't have helped my round.  honestly not sure what would have helped my round--there was a bit of bad luck involved.

If it wasnt for that darn "bad luck", I would be scratch for sure.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by tuffluck

...   i don't understand how people shoot 80s consistently or 70s unless they are playing a whole, whole lot.  if you are a golfer that goes out once a month, mid 90s might be as good as you get....

This is not correct.  Up until about a year ago, I played off and on, fairly sparingly for the last 10-12 years.  The most I probably played in that time span was maybe 10 rounds in a year, and the least was zero.  I didn't keep a record of them, but very, very few of them were over 90, I can promise you.  Heck, even now since I've really got back into it, I don't play a "whole, whole lot" and I'm very close to the point that I think would qualify as "consistently shooting in the 70s."  That is, if 50% counts as consistently ;)  I just looked it up, and since I started back playing - November 17, 2011 to be exact - I have played a total of 34 rounds of golf (3 in the 90's, 6 in the 70's).  That's just barely over twice a month.  I practice too, but my point is that you don't have to play a lot to improve.

I'm also not sure how you can say that you played poorly yet lessons would not help you play better.  That is, in fact, EXACTLY what lessons do.  They help you play better.

But if I was the OP, I'd go with David's initial advice.  Start keeping stats and paying attention to where your flaws lie ... and post your swing here, there are a lot of people that can help you.  (Not me though ... I'm a student, not a teacher.) :)

[tuffluck]

This is not correct.  Up until about a year ago, I played off and on, fairly sparingly for the last 10-12 years.  The most I probably played in that time span was maybe 10 rounds in a year, and the least was zero.  I didn't keep a record of them, but very, very few of them were over 90, I can promise you.  Heck, even now since I've really got back into it, I don't play a "whole, whole lot" and I'm very close to the point that I think would qualify as "consistently shooting in the 70s."  That is, if 50% counts as consistently ;)  I just looked it up, and since I started back playing - November 17, 2011 to be exact - I have played a total of 34 rounds of golf (3 in the 90's, 6 in the 70's).  That's just barely over twice a month.  I practice too, but my point is that you don't have to play a lot to improve. I'm also not sure how you can say that you played poorly yet lessons would not help you play better.  That is, in fact, EXACTLY what lessons do.  They help you play better. But if I was the OP, I'd go with David's initial advice.  Start keeping stats and paying attention to where your flaws lie ... and post your swing here, there are a lot of people that can help you.  (Not me though ... I'm a student, not a teacher.) :)

Hate to fuel your arrogance, but have you considered maybe you are just better than the average player? Most weekend golfers can't even break 100 consistently, so I think 90s for an average Joe is pretty decent. I said lessons probably wouldn't help a guy with good ball striking ability. What are they going to teach me? That there is 15mph wind above the tree line that's going to push my ball to the woods and cost me two strokes if i aim down the middle? Psst, whatever.

[Dave2512]

Considering just about every pro works with an instructor it's safe to say good ball strikers benefit from instruction.

I golf with the mid 90's folks all the time. Everyone is a little different but the biggest difference between their game and mine is course management. Quite a few are capable of lower scores but they take unnecessary risks. Which often leads to more risky shots in an attempt to make up lost ground. Always starts with the driver. A bad tee shot leads to a succession of bad shots because they get into trouble, and it's never because they hit it too long.

[Golfingdad]

Hate to fuel your arrogance, but have you considered maybe you are just better than the average player? Most weekend golfers can't even break 100 consistently, so I think 90s for an average Joe is pretty decent. I said lessons probably wouldn't help a guy with good ball striking ability. What are they going to teach me? That there is 15mph wind above the tree line that's going to push my ball to the woods and cost me two strokes if i aim down the middle? Psst, whatever.

Sorry, didn't mean to sound arrogant, just think that you're underestimating the potential of the average golfer (including yourself). [quote name="Dave2512" url="/t/65322/cant-get-out-of-the-mid-90s#post_817606"]Considering just about every pro works with an instructor it's safe to say good ball strikers benefit from instruction. I golf with the mid 90's folks all the time. Everyone is a little different but the biggest difference between their game and mine is course management. Quite a few are capable of lower scores but they take unnecessary risks. Which often leads to more risky shots in an attempt to make up lost ground. Always starts with the driver. A bad tee shot leads to a succession of bad shots because they get into trouble, and it's never because they hit it too long. [/quote]totally agree.

[Dave2512]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Sorry, didn't mean to sound arrogant, just think that you're underestimating the potential of the average golfer (including yourself).

I agree. The changes I made to get from 95 to 85 were mostly in my head. For me that was just a few months ago. It's still a problem considering it's usually couple a mental slips that lead to double bogey here and there.

[ayysolapsu09]

Originally Posted by bradsul

I was stuck in low 90's for what seemed like ages.  As has been repeated several times now, take basic stats so you have an objective answer as to where you are suffering the most lost strokes.  That will tell you what you need to practice rather than what you think you should practice (not always the same).

For myself, I was hitting fairways but not hitting enough greens.  And when I did hit greens I wasn't getting nearly enough 2 putts.  When I missed the green I was getting too many bogeys.  So for myself I decided to concentrate first on my short game.  I set myself a goal of getting up and down when I was within 30yds of the green.  This covered chipping, pitching and putting.  I decided to treat sand play as a separate area from the short game.  This brought me down into the high 80's surprisingly quickly.  After that I set to work on getting my approaches tucked in nice and tight.  Which is not to say I ignored my full swing during that time, I definitely didn't.  It just wasn't my main focus.

The other thing that could be unknowingly costing you a lot of strokes is going crazy with the driver on every hole that is long enough to hit it.  Take a look at the hole layout, the designer has generally left it pretty obvious where he wants your tee shot to land.  It might be only a hybrid or fairway wood instead of a driver off the tee.  Using the designated landing zone generally takes any trouble out of play and thus fewer recovery shots.  Not as exciting perhaps, but the view from the fairway is nicer than from the trees.

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Very good points, especially the last paragraph.

This doesn't just apply to medium and short par 4's either.  I've been applying this philosophy lately on par 5's too.  Assuming flat hole and no wind, my absolute perfect drive is 280-290, and my absolute perfect 3 wood off the deck is 240 tops.  That's 530 yards right there, so anything over that, I ain't getting home in two no matter what, so there is really no point in hitting a driver off the tee.  A nice 3 wood and 4 iron will put me within 100 yards of the green, and should set up a pretty routine par, and perhaps birdie.  If it's a tight fairway, worry about getting it in the fairway first, not down the fairway.

Totally agree with this one.  I routinely use my 3 wood off the tee because it is much more consistent than my driver.  I can normally hit a fairly high, long pull fade with the 3 wood, where I sometimes struggle with a slice with my driver (technique errors that I have to work on, I think).  Also, my go-to 2nd shot on most par 5's is my 5 or 4 iron, rather than my 3 wood, and it's only when I'm feeling particularly indestructible that I even touch my 3 wood off the deck.  That leaves me with a comfortable 120-130 9i/pw into the green (I think.  I just changed my irons from Taylormades to Mizuno MP-33 blades.  It's an interesting adjustment).  It's those shots that mess with my head :)

As Denzel said, "This s*&^'s Chess, not Checkers!!" (Training Day).

[logman]

Originally Posted by tuffluck

Hate to fuel your arrogance, but have you considered maybe you are just better than the average player? Most weekend golfers can't even break 100 consistently, so I think 90s for an average Joe is pretty decent.

I said lessons probably wouldn't help a guy with good ball striking ability. What are they going to teach me? That there is 15mph wind above the tree line that's going to push my ball to the woods and cost me two strokes if i aim down the middle? Psst, whatever.

Bit harsh!, I don't get that Gdaddy is arrogant at all. Lessons can be great, the OP could have a crazy grip that could be fixed easily or a bad swing path or bad tempo. I reckon any half decent teacher could fix those things pretty quick.

I reckon guys that are shooting in the mid 90's suffer from course management, overhitting, and club problems.

Example one: how many mid/high guys do you see that dont line up where they're going to hit the ball. This can be fixed by just puting a tee behind the ball in the line that you want to hit it.

Example two: how many guys pin their ears back and try to hit a 300 yard drive?

Example three:How many guys, when faced with a shot of 150 yards pull out the stick that on their best swing, with a following hurricane, on a downhill slope will probably get to 150???This one drives me nuts, it's like self sabotage or something. I've pointed out to a few high handicappers that there is no difference in being off the green at the back .....to being off the green at the front. It's like a some guys think that there is a 100 meter cliff just at the back of every green.

Anyway I'm crapping on now, I'm on my second home brew after a 2 under 30 at my local.........Now THAT'S arrogant

[tuffluck]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Sorry, didn't mean to sound arrogant, just think that you're underestimating the potential of the average golfer (including yourself).

totally agree.

sorry you weren't totally arrogant (maybe a strong word), but some people are obviously more talented at the game than others, which has to be a consideration.

Originally Posted by Dave2512

Considering just about every pro works with an instructor it's safe to say good ball strikers benefit from instruction.

I golf with the mid 90's folks all the time. Everyone is a little different but the biggest difference between their game and mine is course management. Quite a few are capable of lower scores but they take unnecessary risks. Which often leads to more risky shots in an attempt to make up lost ground. Always starts with the driver. A bad tee shot leads to a succession of bad shots because they get into trouble, and it's never because they hit it too long.

definitely not going to disagree with you guys entirely.  course management and instructions are certainly helpful, but i still think there are elements of golf that are just going to trump anything you learn or choose to do.  here is a great example, i'd like to hear thoughts...

so i was playing yesterday, 375y par 4 with the wind strongly in my face and a little to the right, probably around 25mph.  i hit a 3w (which i usually hit very low) towards the left side of the fairway, about halfway of it's traveled distance the ball shot up in the air and far right, all the way out of bounds (i never found it).  the wind was obviously much stronger above the tree line i couldn't see.  well i hit a provisional and played it.  i was then in the middle of the fairway and the path to the green was 130y but a thin opening.  i hit an 8i into the wind and started it as far left as i could without hitting into the forest, and the ball still ballooned up and pushed right into the forest on the other side of the fairway. now i'm on my 6th shot at the edge of the forest, but behind trees.  tried to hit a low punch 7i and it rolled into the bunker at the lip.  tried to hit it out, hit the lip and went back in the bunker.  next shot got it out, then 2 putted for a 10.

now, i don't think lessons could have helped me here at all.  course management MAYBE, but not the first tee shot since carry over the water was 210y, so i had to hit a 3w (although water would have been better than forest, which maybe would have been the wiser choice?).  the only course management help may have been on my fairway shot, instead of a high 8i, hit a low half 4i to avoid the effects of the wind above the tree line.  other than that, the other things that could have maybe helped me score better would have been a 1 putt instead of 2 and maybe if my 7i punch out hadn't rolled into the bunker.  and i know what you guys might say, "should have hit the 7i punch away from the bunker," but i looked at that angle and it would have been down a hill, perhaps saving me 1 stroke in the grand scheme of things had i not had enough clearance in the trap after the shot to get it out of the trap (but how would i know that before i hit the ball?).  still a tough pitch as your 6th is only going to get you a 7 if you somehow get really, really lucky.  an 8 or 9 is more reasonable.

last thing i will mention is that "can't get out of the 90s" is sometimes not as bad as it seems.  if you're playing a tough course a 90 could be a 15 handicap, so it's not entirely bogey golf after all.  course i played earlier this week i shot a 92 and it was a 13 handicap (i did have a couple of strokes over 7 that came out for my calculation, but total score was 92).

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by tuffluck

sorry you weren't totally arrogant (maybe a strong word), but some people are obviously more talented at the game than others, which has to be a consideration.

definitely not going to disagree with you guys entirely.  course management and instructions are certainly helpful, but i still think there are elements of golf that are just going to trump anything you learn or choose to do.  here is a great example, i'd like to hear thoughts...

so i was playing yesterday, 375y par 4 with the wind strongly in my face and a little to the right, probably around 25mph.  i hit a 3w (which i usually hit very low) towards the left side of the fairway, about halfway of it's traveled distance the ball shot up in the air and far right, all the way out of bounds (i never found it).  the wind was obviously much stronger above the tree line i couldn't see.  well i hit a provisional and played it.  i was then in the middle of the fairway and the path to the green was 130y but a thin opening.  i hit an 8i into the wind and started it as far left as i could without hitting into the forest, and the ball still ballooned up and pushed right into the forest on the other side of the fairway. now i'm on my 6th shot at the edge of the forest, but behind trees.  tried to hit a low punch 7i and it rolled into the bunker at the lip.  tried to hit it out, hit the lip and went back in the bunker.  next shot got it out, then 2 putted for a 10.

now, i don't think lessons could have helped me here at all.  course management MAYBE, but not the first tee shot since carry over the water was 210y, so i had to hit a 3w (although water would have been better than forest, which maybe would have been the wiser choice?).  the only course management help may have been on my fairway shot, instead of a high 8i, hit a low half 4i to avoid the effects of the wind above the tree line.  other than that, the other things that could have maybe helped me score better would have been a 1 putt instead of 2 and maybe if my 7i punch out hadn't rolled into the bunker.  and i know what you guys might say, "should have hit the 7i punch away from the bunker," but i looked at that angle and it would have been down a hill, perhaps saving me 1 stroke in the grand scheme of things had i not had enough clearance in the trap after the shot to get it out of the trap (but how would i know that before i hit the ball?).  still a tough pitch as your 6th is only going to get you a 7 if you somehow get really, really lucky.  an 8 or 9 is more reasonable.

last thing i will mention is that "can't get out of the 90s" is sometimes not as bad as it seems.  if you're playing a tough course a 90 could be a 15 handicap, so it's not entirely bogey golf after all.  course i played earlier this week i shot a 92 and it was a 13 handicap (i did have a couple of strokes over 7 that came out for my calculation, but total score was 92).

Well, of course, lessons are not the end-all, be-all that immediately put you at scratch.  Everybody still makes big numbers no matter how good they are, and everybody still has bad luck sometimes no matter how good they are.  But just about everybody, except perhaps Bubba Watson: http://thesandtrap.com/t/64882/could-bubba-watson-benefit-from-instruction/0_30 (yup, I'm plugging my own thread :)) is going to benefit from good instruction.

I know too many people that are either afraid to get lessons (because it'll worsen their already crappy swing) or, believe it or not, hey think that they aren't good enough to get lessons (whatever the heck that means??).  Sometimes, those types finally take a lesson, try what they were taught for 2 minutes, and since its not immediately working, abandon it and go back to what they were comfortable with previously.

[14ledo81]

Originally Posted by tuffluck

sorry you weren't totally arrogant (maybe a strong word), but some people are obviously more talented at the game than others, which has to be a consideration.

definitely not going to disagree with you guys entirely.  course management and instructions are certainly helpful, but i still think there are elements of golf that are just going to trump anything you learn or choose to do.  here is a great example, i'd like to hear thoughts...

so i was playing yesterday, 375y par 4 with the wind strongly in my face and a little to the right, probably around 25mph.  i hit a 3w (which i usually hit very low) towards the left side of the fairway, about halfway of it's traveled distance the ball shot up in the air and far right, all the way out of bounds (i never found it).  the wind was obviously much stronger above the tree line i couldn't see.  well i hit a provisional and played it.  i was then in the middle of the fairway and the path to the green was 130y but a thin opening.  i hit an 8i into the wind and started it as far left as i could without hitting into the forest, and the ball still ballooned up and pushed right into the forest on the other side of the fairway. now i'm on my 6th shot at the edge of the forest, but behind trees.  tried to hit a low punch 7i and it rolled into the bunker at the lip.  tried to hit it out, hit the lip and went back in the bunker.  next shot got it out, then 2 putted for a 10.

Sounds to me like lessons could help.  Is your typical miss a fade/slice?  Maybe you hit your normal shot and the wind just exagerated the spin?

[tuffluck]

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

Sounds to me like lessons could help.  Is your typical miss a fade/slice?  Maybe you hit your normal shot and the wind just exagerated the spin?

i hit it straight, but can fade it if i want.  i was not trying to do it that day!  i can't hit a draw, though if i could i would have been trying then!

[tuffluck]

I don't really think it's strategy or course management that is the problem for most golfers stuck in the 90s.  For most that I've seen, it is ball-striking plain and simple. Yes they may have lousy short games also, but for the most part I see too many completely wasted shots... fat, duffs, shanks, lost balls, etc.  If a player has a reasonably reliable full swing, they will start working on the short game.  Until then, the short game always seems secondary. In my humble opinion I think that for many golfers, the weight shift/pivot is very difficult to learn. That is the heart of the problem.  It is one of those things that seems easy to those who can do it, and incredibly difficult to those who can't.  That is not to say it cannot be learned with enough effort and practice - only that it is difficult and often frustrating because occasionally perfect shots are followed up with complete mishits. I would advise the OP (if ball-striking is in fact his problem which I suspect it is), to start focusing on an approach that minimizes the #1 problem which is usually the weight shift/pivot.  That would mean something like Stack and Tilt, but there are other alternative methods out there that minimize movement and lead to more consistent striking of the golf ball. And yes instruction can help but I think instruction in a method that will make ball striking easier would make more sense if you have been stuck in the 90s for so long.

Seems logical but not true for me. I shot a 97 recently with four errant tee shots for 8 penalty strokes. One could say I shanked them, but two of them were a combo of poor aim and severe wind. The other two were pooly hit. At any rate, I didn't shank a single ball all day with an iron. And I'm damn good at the pivot/weight shift thing too. In fact taught it to myself with the help of Louis Oosthuizen in slow motion ;) For me during that round it simply came down to "penalties is the reason I didn't shoot in the 80s," because I felt like my game was pretty solid otherwise. Stroke and distance is the most score damaging rule in golf, especially if you play in a lot of windy conditions.

[David in FL]

Seems logical but not true for me. I shot a 97 recently with four errant tee shots for 8 penalty strokes. One could say I shanked them, but two of them were a combo of poor aim and severe wind. The other two were pooly hit. At any rate, I didn't shank a single ball all day with an iron. And I'm damn good at the pivot/weight shift thing too. In fact taught it to myself with the help of Louis Oosthuizen in slow motion ;) For me during that round it simply came down to "penalties is the reason I didn't shoot in the 80s," because I felt like my game was pretty solid otherwise. Stroke and distance is the most score damaging rule in golf, especially if you play in a lot of windy conditions.

Sorry, but the vast majority of penalties come from poor ball striking. Refusing to acknowledge where their opportunities lie is one reason so many people do not improve beyond a certain level of mediocrity....

[Golfingdad]

Sorry, but the vast majority of penalties come from poor ball striking.

oh come on David, you know that's silly! Every time I've ever seen a pro hit it into water or OB its always because of hurricane winds or dumb luck. The shots are always perfectly struck. ;)

[David in FL]

oh come on David, you know that's silly! Every time I've ever seen a pro hit it into water or OB its always because of hurricane winds or dumb luck. The shots are always perfectly struck. ;)

Yeah, you're right. What was I thinking?!

[14ledo81]

I think the OP is confusing the ability to strike the ball well with the ability to "consistently" strike the ball well.