or Connect
TheSandTrap.com › Golf Forum › The Clubhouse › Golf Talk › What muscles make you drive the ball further?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

What muscles make you drive the ball further? - Page 2

post #19 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post

believe me, its a myth that bulking up with limit your flexibility. As long as your using your muscles, and being active, your muscles will be flexible. Look at some Olympic weight lifters, they are huge, bulky. But they can get deep into a squat better than those who are very thing. The reason, they are using those muscles, they have been doing countless squats, training. They are bulked up, but the muscles they use, and the direction they use them are more flexible than most people out there. This is why Mark McGuire could play golf, he played baseball, all his muscles are fine tuned for rotation. Given golf isn't dominated by bulky guys, but most people are not going to get huge with out the help of supplements, its nearly impossible unless your an outlier genetically. Very few people can get body building, Olympic Weight lifting big with out the help of supplements or steroids.

So really, there is not fear in loosing flexibility if you lift weights, or want to bulk up. If you have a sedimentary life style, you will gain mobility and strength.

There really isn't harm in both learning to swing better and work out. Your overall health is more important than your golf game. So i recommend working out just because its good for you. That's why i always say go with a fully body workout, and throw in a handful of golf specific stuff a couple times a week just to help out a bit.

I'm not sure anyone said bulking up hurt... but you don't gain flexibility by lifting, you gain flexibility from stretching. Compare some little girl doing yoga(in hot yoga pants, better picture) to someone who bulks. Yoga (stretching) does a lot more than bulking.
post #20 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post

believe me, its a myth that bulking up with limit your flexibility. As long as your using your muscles, and being active, your muscles will be flexible. Look at some Olympic weight lifters, they are huge, bulky. But they can get deep into a squat better than those who are very thing. The reason, they are using those muscles, they have been doing countless squats, training. They are bulked up, but the muscles they use, and the direction they use them are more flexible than most people out there. This is why Mark McGuire could play golf, he played baseball, all his muscles are fine tuned for rotation. Given golf isn't dominated by bulky guys, but most people are not going to get huge with out the help of supplements, its nearly impossible unless your an outlier genetically. Very few people can get body building, Olympic Weight lifting big with out the help of supplements or steroids.

 

So really, there is not fear in loosing flexibility if you lift weights, or want to bulk up. If you have a sedimentary life style, you will gain mobility and strength.

 

There really isn't harm in both learning to swing better and work out. Your overall health is more important than your golf game. So i recommend working out just because its good for you. That's why i always say go with a fully body workout, and throw in a handful of golf specific stuff a couple times a week just to help out a bit.

 

As I said, I don't disagree that fitness and adding some muscle mass could add to the ability to hit it further, but I think too much attention is given to swing speed, esp for amateurs. For 99.9% of amateurs, the harder we try to hit it, the shorter the shot. This is because when we swing too fast, the kinesthetic sequence goes down the toilet and we don't reach the proper positions at the right times. Swing path and face control become uncontrollable. I work out, but a few times every year I find myself losing accuracy and distance, which I always regain by slowing down.

 

I guess what I'm saying is adding muscle is fine, but timing and technique will always trump brute force.

post #21 of 49

A few thoughts, in no particular order:

 

In order to create power in your swing, you need to drive your body rotation and maintain your extension and stability. It's going to put a lot of torque on your lower back unless you either leak power somewhere or control your acceleration and deceleration smoothly. It makes sense that having any more weight involved in your moving parts (ie your entire upper body) will increase this stress, especially if it's far from your center of rotation. Seems like muscle-heavy arms are a questionable idea for speed, no matter how strong they are. Some of your muscles in the shoulder and wrists are useful for keeping the club supported and on plane, as well as controlling the face and path, but they're not the primary power source IMO. If you're going to have bulky arms, you'd better have a very strong and resilient core and back to prevent injury from the extra stresses in your swing. If you're built bigger naturally, your muscles are designed to handle the load.

 

Look at the iron byron; it has a totally rigid left arm and no right arm because it doesn't need the extra support to handle the club. The wrist is a bit overpowered, but the only other spot that moves is the shoulder plane. So as long as you can rotate your body and keep your left arm straight, your arms themselves don't contribute much outside of staying stable and guiding the club. The legs are also about stability and don't contribute much to rotation, but they do allow a weight shift or a thrust to widen the arc at the bottom. This facilitates clean ballstriking with the correct angles, but not necessarily extra rotational power. So the wrists, which you can't really bulk up because they're hard to isolate and easy to injure, and the core are the two obvious choices for getting more power. I'd say the wrists need work if yours are weaker than the norm, but otherwise stick to core and flexibility/stability exercises.

 

 

When I'm getting my best power, I feel like I'm turning almost "mechanically" around my spine rather than throwing with my hands or twisting my shoulders open, I just need to keep my arc wide and keep my spine and head centered and follow through with my shoulders. I think almost of Stricker and how weak his swing looks from afar. It's very efficient and smooth most of the time, and I have some extra speed if I desire. Just need to keep connected to ensure a good path and let my setup do the rest. I'd say my right asscheek and my back muscles around the level of my lowest ribs are the biggest source of conscious effort in my swing. My arms are more about setting my wrists and plane on the backswing, then just keeping the club and hands caught up to the body rotation.

 

I'm about 6 feet and 150 pounds soaking wet, my arms are relatively lean but I have strong hands and forearms for my size. They give me a firm grip and that gives me the ability to prevent the clubface from getting goofy at high speeds, but all I have to do is keep them extended. I also still have very strong legs from TKD in past years; my calf muscles are still way bigger than my dad's and my brother, who both have chicken legs despite my dad being 80lbs heavier than myself and much stronger in his upper body. That gives me some stability, in fact I have an unusually low center of gravity for my height, so I don't have to throw away my angles to keep in balance. Helped me kick people in the face in plenty of competitions without losing my balance and I could basically counterbalance my torso with one leg for a whole match because I had such uneven musculature.

 

I go into the swing with the mindset of a much stronger guy, that the club feels light and controllable in my grip and I don't need to hit it too hard or force it to fly a certain way; I just try to control it through my chosen path perfectly without needing to compensate. Trying to be a skinny kid who uses every bit of flexibility to get enough length to compete with stronger guys is exactly the wrong mindset. Trying to bulk up to let you compete with those guys is wrong too. Taking the mindset of being Superman trying to precisely control his distance and form is a better way to play golf. Superman is not curious about his limits, or trying to show off. He knows he has enough strength, he just wants to hit the ball on the green and not create a volcanic eruption with his divot. So he uses exactly the right amount of power, no more than necessary.

 

Oh, and clubhead speed is useless without efficiency. Being brutally honest, I can hit a 5 iron longer on average than I used to get with a 120mph driver because I hit it so bad. I'd deloft it, come in off plane, and the ball was way too close and too far back. This basically either thinned it or drove the ball really hard but with the loft pointing low and left, resulting in a smothered hook. Think like using a -2 degree driver with a 6 degree closed face with a normal swing. With proper alignments I can easily get a true launch and powerful high flight with any club. Though your driver might say 8 degrees I've learned there's no such thing as a set loft on a driver (plus many are dead wrong), dynamic loft matters a lot more, as does the delivered face angle and angle of attack, and face bulge and roll. Hitting a 12 degree off the lower face, where it comes off weak and spinning, will go a lot lower and shorter than an 8 degree off the high part of the sweet spot, where it might play more like 10 degrees but spin less. Plus you have the fact the lie angle can make the loft point crooked in certain positions, or mess with your eye depending whether you sole or hover the club.

 

Not sure what my chs is anymore, but I'd bet it's nearly as fast now even though it doesn't feel like it. I carry my 7 iron about 175 yards on average now. Most of my yardages seem well in line with the 116-120mph range.

 

By the way, remember that trying to outdrive someone you can't outdrive is the absolute stupidest thing you can do. Stay out of the pissing contest mentality if you're playing or practicing seriously. Even the pros try to do it all the time, and often suffer defeat in match play because they try to hit big aggressive shots that backfire. My brother was doing this to me, as he is older and played sports longer; on a par 3 course he'd try and hit the same clubs as me from the same tees. Trouble is, I'm about 30 strokes better than him and a hell of a lot longer because he's never been a serious player and golf isn't a forgiving sport. He had trouble believing I was consistently that much longer, always electing to hit his 9i 150 and other nonsense. After about 10 holes he wised up and moved up to the white tees, and started just hitting his 7 iron on every shot and actually did better. My friend Nick keeps trying to do this as well. Not only is he 6 inches shorter and has short arms, his swing isn't the best either. Every hole it goes the same: 

 

Nick: OK what'd you hit?

Me: It's about 158, I hit a hard 9 to get to the front half.

Nick: OK I'll hit an 8 because you're a teensy bit longer.

(Hits shot, thin push fade, ends up rolling forward, 15 yards short of the green)

Nick: Well I sliced it a bit, stood up. How do you hit that high pitch shot again?

Me: (Shakes my head, trying to remember if there was ever a time I've seen him miss long.) 

 

Good luck out there.

post #22 of 49

Not a whole lot of body torque here. Just great sequence and the arms falling into the slot. Power can come from different sources.

post #23 of 49

Yep, Jack is very much like Bubba Watson, gets great width with the hands, gets them high in the golf swing, and uses a lot of flexibility and leverage to create power. But he also has a very powerful lower body. Look at jack's early golf swing, that guy has a backside and big legs. He also coiled a lot as well, but he did it like Bubba does, he rotates his hips, straightens that back leg and really uses his whole body to turn

 

Normon would hit with a lot of controled aggression. There's a reason it almost looks like his golf club is going to snap over his back when he hit a drive. he lashed out at the ball very hard. Though i don't think Greg was that long off the tee compared to other players. I don't think he had a power advantage like Jack did during his time. Greg to me was a precision player. He said when he was on he could hit the ball with in a yard of were he wanted it to land. He was probably one of the most accurate driver's of the golf ball. Which tells me he wasn't a power player. Power players are netorious for being innacurate off the tee. 

post #24 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by 460CompMark View Post


wrong.  i did mention im 5'9  140lbs right?  30' waist and chicken legs don't make for strong hips and legs.

 

You are built just like my golf partner. The difference between the him hitting it 280 and the typical guy is that he uses every pound in his body to hit it. He has more efficiency in his technique. Sometimes when he catches a good one and someone makes a comment about his size he will say something like, "I bet the last time you saw legs like these they were hanging out of a bucket of chicken" or "That was my Cajun ball (Blue Bayou)". 

 

There are some golf specific workouts online that are pretty good and most concentrate on core and being limber. After hitting hundreds balls over the last 5 days, I feel like I need to get on the wagon and do something. Yesterday I practiced over a 5 hole stretch (played the same 5 holes a few times with multiple balls) and then finished on the range. My swing started to suffer as I was really fatigued and I lost that connection from the hips-core-shoulders. I want to build that up so that I am able to properly support my posture, and be able to execute a swing in which a 90% effort would be equal to what 100% is now. 

post #25 of 49

going off of feel... (i know i know, feel aint real) I would say core... those muscles are very engaged on my better back swings, which helps keep things "connected". My back muscles (for those who only consider abs to be core) are also very engaged during the course of my swing and feel as tho they are the primary contributors in the downswing motion... but technique is a huge factor in the quality of power and the shot altogether.  My arm muscles are only engaged to the extent it takes to maintain a straight lead arm, and "connected-ness" with my upper body movement, and also the unhinging action. The better the execution of the technique, which for me right now is an emphasis on weight shift and flat wrist at impact, the better the delivery of energy to the ball at impact. 

post #26 of 49

A lot of these responses are very misleading. Anyone who says muscles don't matter are wrong. Completely off base at least. 

 

Muscles only matter once your technique is perfected. Getting your hips to turn correctly is key. The longest drivers on tour also have, not suprisingly, the most hip rotation in most cases. Bubba Watson even lifts his front foot off the ground slightly to allow him to rotate a little more. 

 

That being said, strength comes into it after you are unable to spin your hips any faster. That being said, any workout that allows you to strengthen your ability to turn your hips faster is going to increase your distance. Your back and core muscles will help you achieve this. Arms and shoulders also come into play obviously as well, though having strong arms isn't as important as turning your hips faster. 

post #27 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikelegacy View Post

A lot of these responses are very misleading. Anyone who says muscles don't matter are wrong. Completely off base at least. 

 

Muscles only matter once your technique is perfected. Getting your hips to turn correctly is key. The longest drivers on tour also have, not suprisingly, the most hip rotation in most cases. Bubba Watson even lifts his front foot off the ground slightly to allow him to rotate a little more. 

 

That being said, strength comes into it after you are unable to spin your hips any faster. That being said, any workout that allows you to strengthen your ability to turn your hips faster is going to increase your distance. Your back and core muscles will help you achieve this. Arms and shoulders also come into play obviously as well, though having strong arms isn't as important as turning your hips faster. 

 

 

Agreed. Hip power makes a big difference, arm strength makes a small difference. 

post #28 of 49
Guys...

It's about how well you hit the ball, not brute strength.

I will use myself as an example. In college, I lifted almost everyday and was a beast. I could drive the ball just over 200 yards.

Now I am married to my job, have lost 30lbs and have nowhere near the strength I once did, however, my golf game is considerably longer (like 50-75 yards longer)

Golf is about form, and hitting shots pure. As mentioned, look at the pros, they are not big guys, they are lean, flexible guys.
post #29 of 49

I have to think strength plays a big part in distance, otherwise the women's tees wouldn't be so far forward. 

 

If strength didn't matter, then a properly sequenced female golfer would bomb it just as far as a properly sequenced male golfer.

post #30 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unkynd View Post

I have to think strength plays a big part in distance, otherwise the women's tees wouldn't be so far forward. 

If strength didn't matter, then a properly sequenced female golfer would bomb it just as far as a properly sequenced male golfer.

Ok... I like this argument.

So here is what I would say to that: if you have perfect form then additional strength does help, so yes, LPGA vs PGA, PGA guys hit further, however, form plays a much bigger part in varying distance than strength.

Most players continue to hit further as they get better, although I think most would agree they aren't as strong in their 40's as they were in their 20's.
post #31 of 49

From what I've heard, because women historically haven't had as much competition, so distance wasn't a big deal? I don't know. I remember watching Big Break Ireland and the girls were hitting 5w and 4i into a 160 yard par 3. Seems like they don't try to hit it hard, with muscles or body. 

post #32 of 49

Well its a known fact that people loose muscle mass as they age, so yea, unless you work out, your going to loose muscle. The only guy i think who is older and can hit it as good as some 20 year olds is Fred Couples, boom boom, still hsa some boom boom in that driver. 

post #33 of 49

Swing technique > muscle mass

 

Working out might offer some distance gains once you have a pro level swing, but the bigger benefit to working out IMO is endurance.  Your muscles and body need to be trained to handle all the practice swings and real swings one takes during a round of golf without major fatigue setting in and then be able to reproduce it on four or more consecutive days. 

 

Muscle fatigue brings in different muscle fibers that are deeper in the muscle and don't have the energy stores or strength that the most often used fibers have.  If you don't train those deep fibers you're not going to have the muscle endurance to swing the same way and speed at the end of a round as you did in the beginning. 

 

There's a reason sprinters don't run marathons, their muscles are trained for maximum output at short distances, golf is an endurance sport. 

post #34 of 49

Really if you want to think about it in terms of muscle fiber types, the only muscles you really want to have endurance in is the quads, and the Rectus Abdominis. Because these two are taking the most endurance in terms of walking, standing, and staying in your posture. The rest of the body can be more fast twitch muscle fibers. 

 

But still, there is concern that you really can't train much in terms of muscle fiber types. There's a reason why they say in football, you can't teach speed. Genetics play a huge part in muscle fiber types, as well as the location of the muscles themselves. Certain muscles are mainly fast twitch, some are mainly slow twich. Alot of muscles are 50/50 slow to fast twitch muscle fibers. When you train them, your not going to suddenly switch to 80/20 or 20/80. Your only going to get a few extra percentages in one direction or the other. If not then anybody can train and become a world level sprinter, or long distance runner. I would say its easier to to train endurance than it is fast twitch, i think more people can get use to long distance running than gain top end speed in sprinting. 

 

But i get that your saying a good golf swing will improve distance more than training. But there is not harm in exercising. Its not like you have to subsitute one for the other, do both. 

post #35 of 49

Actually there are three types of muscle fibers;

Type I - slow twitch oxidative - low force / power / speed production, high endurance

Type IIA - fast twitch oxidative - fall between Type I and Type II B

Type IIB - fast twitch glycolytic.  high force / power / speed, low endurance

 

While you cannot alter the amount of fibers you have of each type, your training methods will engage the Type IIA to emulate Type I or Type IIB fibers. 

 

Also if you don't train to engage all of your Type 1 fibers, your stamina will be impacted.  This is partially the reason a person prior to training might only be able to run a few miles before muscle fatigue sets in but after proper training is capable of running a marathon. 

post #36 of 49

i don't think the LPGA has the same swing speed as the PGA.  just a hunch.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Golf Talk
TheSandTrap.com › Golf Forum › The Clubhouse › Golf Talk › What muscles make you drive the ball further?