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The 2013 Masters/Tiger Drop Penalty and Fallout - Page 12

post #199 of 233

See turtleback? :)

 

FWIW I'm one of the people who consider them part of the Rules. Others don't, though obviously I believe they should. Maybe you didn't but now will given the Rulesman post.

post #200 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

See turtleback? :)

 

FWIW I'm one of the people who consider them part of the Rules. Others don't, though obviously I believe they should. Maybe you didn't but now will given the Rulesman post.

Not so fast there.  You didn't capitalize Rule so you don't get to use that definition.  And you didn't say the rules (capital or not) were amended you specifically said Rule 33-7, and even Rulesman's cite doesn't say that each Decision is part of the rule it is under.

 

So there!!  ;)

 

LOL

post #201 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback View Post

Not so fast there.  You didn't capitalize Rule so you don't get to use that definition.  And you didn't say the rules (capital or not) were amended you specifically said Rule 33-7, and even Rulesman's cite doesn't say that each Decision is part of the rule it is under.

 

So there!!  ;)

 

LOL

 

In other words, I win! :D

post #202 of 233

Part of the fallout of the controversy regarding Tiger’s second ball on the 33rd hole of the 2013 Masters was that I actually read the USGA Rules regarding the matter, which I had never done before.

 

I discovered that the Tournament Committee’s original decision on April 12th that Tiger had not violated the USGA Rules of Golf was correct.

 

On April 13th, the Committee reversed itself and decided that Tiger had violated the phrase “as nearly as possible at” in Rule 26-1a, which the Committee now (on April 13th) interpreted to mean that a second ball must be DROPPED so that it first strikes the ground ON OR NEXT TO the original spot.

 

On May 1st, the USGA released a written opinion on the matter that expressed the same thing.

 

That suggests to me that the reason that the Masters Committee reversed itself (incorrectly) on April 13th was that it consulted the same person that was responsible for the USGA’s incorrect May 1st written opinion.

 

Rule 26-1 states, NOT where a second ball is to be DROPPED, but  where a second ball is to be PLAYED.

 

Rule 26-1a also specifically tells the reader to “see Rule 20-5” for the explanation of what the phrase “as nearly as possible at” in Rule 26-1a means.

 

The phrase “as nearly as possible at” in Rule 26-1a means that a second ball can be played within two club lengths (or more) of the original spot either on the teeing ground (Rule 20-5a) or through the green (Rules 20-2c and 20-5b).

 

By playing a second ball two yards behind (within two club lengths of) the original spot through the green on the 33rd hole, Tiger Woods complied with the phrase “as nearly as possible at” in Rule 26-1a as explained in Rule 20-5.  

 

Therefore, Tiger did not violate the USGA Rues of Golf.

 

Therefore, Tiger should not have been penalized. 

post #203 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim1 View Post

 

The phrase “as nearly as possible at” in Rule 26-1a means that a second ball can be played within two club lengths (or more) of the original spot either on the teeing ground (Rule 20-5a) or through the green (Rules 20-2c and 20-5b).

 

 

 

How do you arrive at that interpretation? 

 

Dropping 2 yards from the original position cannot be considered to be a process that will leave the ball 'as nearly as possible' to the original. 

Some roll is to be expected but on level ground a ball dropped two yards away will never roll closer than a ball dropped one yard away or one dropped from virtually immediately above.

 

It is arguable that on a slope, the player could anticipate the roll and claim that his intention was to play from 'as near as possible' but in this case Woods did not have that intention.

 

The ball may be played from a position not 'as nearly as possible' only if there was an intent to play 'as nearly as possible'.

post #204 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim1 View Post

Rule 26-1 states, NOT where a second ball is to be DROPPED, but  where a second ball is to be PLAYED.
True, but the rule refers to the rule you must use when dropping (20-5), which clearly states where you must drop.
Quote:
20-5. Making Next Stroke from Where Previous Stroke Made

When a player elects or is required to make his next stroke from where a previous stroke was made, he must proceed as follows:

(b) Through the Green: The ball to be played must be dropped and when dropped must first strike a part of the course through the green.
The ball must be dropped, which means you have to look at 20-2. (Dropping and Re-Dropping)
Quote:
20-2. Dropping and Re-Dropping
b. Where to Drop

When a ball is to be dropped as near as possible to a specific spot, it must be dropped not nearer the hole than the specific spot which, if it is not precisely known to the player, must be estimated.
post #205 of 233

The ball must be played within 2 clublengths of the spot (and no closer to the hole than) where it first hits the ground when dropped, but the ball must first contact the course at the spot required under the applicable rule.  Tiger did not fulfill the second part of the requirement.

post #206 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim1 View Post

Therefore, Tiger should not have been penalized. 

 

You're wrong. He did not play from - or drop on - a spot "as nearly as possible." He was able to reasonably drop on or play from a spot that was "nearer" but failed to do so.

post #207 of 233

 

Quote:
How do you arrive at that interpretation? 

 

By simply reading what is written in the USGA Rules of Golf as it is written. 

 

 

Quote:

Dropping 2 yards from the original position cannot be considered to be a process that will leave the ball 'as nearly as possible' to the original. Some roll is to be expected but on level ground a ball dropped two yards away will never roll closer than a ball dropped one yard away or one dropped from virtually immediately above.

 

Rule 26-1a says nothing about where to drop. It only says where to play. 

 

 

Quote:
It is arguable that on a slope, the player could anticipate the roll and claim that his intention was to play from 'as near as possible' but in this case Woods did not have that intention.

 

Intention is irrelevant in the USGA Rules of Golf. The only thing that matters in the USGA Rules of Golf is action. 

 

 

Quote:
The ball may be played from a position not 'as nearly as possible' only if there was an intent to play 'as nearly as possible'.

 

Not so. Playing "as nearly as possible at" the original spot on the teeing ground means playing anywhere on the teeing ground, as stated in Rule 20-5a, to which Rule 26-1a specifically directs the reader for the explanation of what playing "as nearly as possible at" the original spot means. The phrase "as nearly as possible at" allows a second ball to be played very far away from the original spot, even when playing nearer the original spot is possible. 

 

By insisting that "as nearly as possible at" in Rule 26-1a means on or next to the original spot, you are not allowing Rule 20-5 to tell you what that phrase means. You are intentionally ignoring part of what Rule 26-1a says.

post #208 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim1 View Post

 

Not so. Playing "as nearly as possible at" the original spot on the teeing ground means playing anywhere on the teeing ground, as stated in Rule 20-5a, to which Rule 26-1a specifically directs the reader for the explanation of what playing "as nearly as possible at" the original spot means. The phrase "as nearly as possible at" allows a second ball to be played very far away from the original spot, even when playing nearer the original spot is possible. 

 

By insisting that "as nearly as possible at" in Rule 26-1a means on or next to the original spot, you are not allowing Rule 20-5 to tell you what that phrase means. You are intentionally ignoring part of what Rule 26-1a says.

 

Did you actually read the rule 20-5 (Making next stroke from where previous stroke made) and did you notice that Tiger was not on teeing ground?

 

 

Quote:
(b) Through the Green: The ball to be played must be dropped and when dropped must first strike a part of the course through the green. 

 

Then rule 20-2 regarding dropping:

 

 

Quote:
b. Where to Drop 
When a ball is to be dropped as near as possible to a specific spot, it must be dropped not nearer the hole than the specific spot which, if it is not precisely known to the player, must be estimated. 

 

And the specific spot in this case was "Making next stroke from where previous stroke made" on Through the Green. Not two yards left, right, front or back.

 

Or do you think there is some twisted way to bend the rules so you can drop anywhere through the green when required to play from same spot again?

post #209 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim1 View Post

Rule 26-1 states, NOT where a second ball is to be DROPPED, but  where a second ball is to be PLAYED.

 

Quote:
True, but the rule refers to the rule you must use when dropping (20-5), which clearly states where you must drop.

 

Playing "as nearly as possible at" the original spot in Rule 26-1a means playing anywhere on the teeing ground (Rule 20-5a), which allows a second ball to be played far away from the original spot on the teeing ground, even when playing nearer the original spot is possible. Therefore, the phrase "as nearly as possible at" in Rule 26-1a clearly does NOT mean what it says, as explained in Rule 20-5.

 

If the phrase "as nearly as possible at" in Rule 26-1a does NOT mean what it says when the original spot is located on the teeing ground, which it clearly does not (Rule 20-5a), then it does NOT mean what it says when the original spot is located through the green either (Rule 20-5b).

 

Rule 20-5b says nothing about where to drop and play a second ball relative to the original spot through the green. It merely states that it must be dropped and played through the green.

 

Therefore, the reader must look to Rule 20-2c for further clarification, which states that a dropped ball can be played if it comes to rest not nearer the hole and not more than two club lengths away from the point at which it first strikes the ground. Therefore, if the dropped ball first strikes the ground exactly on the original spot through the green, then it can be played as much as two club lengths away from the original spot through the green. If it first strikes the ground anywhere else, then it can be played more than two club lengths away from the original spot through the green.

 

Thus, the phrase "as nearly as possible at" in Rule 26-1a regarding where a second ball can be played relative to the original spot through the green means that it can be played more than two club lengths away from the original spot through the green, as explained in Rules 20-5b and 20-2c. 

 

Quote:
20-5. Making Next Stroke from Where Previous Stroke Made

When a player elects or is required to make his next stroke from where a previous stroke was made, he must proceed as follows:

(b) Through the Green: The ball to be played must be dropped and when dropped must first strike a part of the course through the green.

 

 

Quote:
The ball must be dropped, which means you have to look at 20-2. (Dropping and Re-Dropping)

 

I agree, as I already mentioned above.

 

My point is that the phrase "as nearly as possible at" in Rule 26-1a does NOT mean what it says. That phrase in Rule 26-1a means what Rule 20-5 says it means, which allows a second ball to be played much farther away from the original spot than on or next to the original spot, even when playing nearer the original spot is possible.  

 

Quote:
20-2. Dropping and Re-Dropping
b. Where to Drop

When a ball is to be dropped as near as possible to a specific spot, it must be dropped not nearer the hole than the specific spot which, if it is not precisely known to the player, must be estimated.
post #210 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim1 View Post

Playing "as nearly as possible at" the original spot in Rule 26-1a means playing anywhere on the teeing ground (Rule 20-5a), which allows a second ball to be played far away from the original spot on the teeing ground, even when playing nearer the original spot is possible. Therefore, the phrase "as nearly as possible at" in Rule 26-1a clearly does NOT mean what it says, as explained in Rule 20-5.

 

That's apparently where you go wrong.

 

The same "rules" apply differently in various parts of the course. There's the teeing area, through the green, the putting green itself, and hazards (and different kinds of hazards as well), as well as OB, GUR, etc.

 

You don't get to apply "teeing ground rules" to "through the green" situations.

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim1 View Post

Rule 20-5b says nothing about where to drop and play a second ball relative to the original spot through the green. It merely states that it must be dropped and played through the green.

 

It's very clear in what it says:

 

 

20-5. Making Next Stroke From Where Previous Stroke Made

When a player elects or is required to make his next stroke from where a previous stroke was made, he must proceed as follows:

(a) On the Teeing Ground: The ball to be played must be played from within the teeing ground. It may be played from anywhere within the teeing groundand may be teed.

(b) Through the Green: The ball to be played must be dropped and when dropped must first strike a part of the coursethrough the green.

(c) In a Hazard: The ball to be played must be dropped and when dropped must first strike a part of the course in the hazard.

(d) On the Putting Green: The ball to be played must be placed on the putting green.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim1 View Post

My point is that the phrase "as nearly as possible at" in Rule 26-1a does NOT mean what it says.

 

Yes it does, and Tiger did not drop OR play his shot from "as nearly as possible." There's no set limit on what "as nearly as possible" is, except that it's a reasonable spot (situations vary when a player doesn't know exactly where the previous stroke occurred).

post #211 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

The ball must be played within 2 clublengths of the spot (and no closer to the hole than) where it first hits the ground when dropped, but the ball must first contact the course at the spot required under the applicable rule.  Tiger did not fulfill the second part of the requirement.

 

The Rules in the USGA Rules of Golf that discuss where to DROP a second ball relative to the original spot are Rules 20-2b and 20-3c. Those Rules refer to a second ball being DROPPED (first striking the ground) "as near as possible to" the original spot either through the green or in a hazard.

 

However, those Rules to NOT specifically direct the reader to any other Rule for the explanation of what the phrase "as near as possible to" means regarding where a second ball is to be DROPPED (is to first strike the ground).

 

Therefore, Rule 34-3 requires the Tournament Committee to decide what the phrase "as near as possible to" in Rules 20-2b and 20-3c means. It means whatever the Tournament Committee says it means (such as within two club lengths of the original spot, or within a yard, or within a foot, or within an inch).

 

Since a precedent has already been established that the phrase "as nearly as possible at" in Rules 26-1a and 27-1a allows a second ball to be PLAYED more than two club lengths away from the original spot either on the teeing ground (Rule 20-5a) or through the green (Rules 20-2c and 20-5b), the Tournament Committee therefore has that precedent as a reason to decide that the phrase "as near as possible to" in Rules 20-2b and 20-3c allows a second bell to be DROPPED (to first strike the ground) within two club lengths of the original spot either through the green or in a hazard.

 

On April 12th, the Tournament Committee decided that Tiger Woods had NOT violated the USGA Rules of Golf on the 33rd hole. Therefore, the Committee had apparently decided (Rule 34-3) that the phrase "as near as possible to" in Rules 20-2b and 20-3c regarding where a second ball could be DROPPED (could first strike the ground) meant within two club lengths of the original spot. The Committee was allowed in the USGA Rules of Golf to make that decision.  

 

It wasn't until April 13th that the Committee started talking about the phrase "as nearly as possible at" in Rule 26-1a requiring a second ball to be DROPPED ON OR NEXT TO the original spot through the green, which Rule 26-1a most certainly does NOT require.  

post #212 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

You're wrong. He did not play from - or drop on - a spot "as nearly as possible." He was able to reasonably drop on or play from a spot that was "nearer" but failed to do so.

 

Rule 26-1a does not say anything about where to drop a second ball. It only says where a second ball is to be played, and it directs the reader to Rule 20-5 for clarification. A second ball can be played more than two club lengths away from the original spot either on the teeing ground (Rule 20-5a) or through the green (Rules 20-2c and 20-5b).

 

Since Tiger Woods played a second ball within two club lengths of the original spot through the green, he complied with the phrase "as nearly as possible at'" in Rule 26-1a, as clarified in Rule 20-5.  

post #213 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim1 View Post

 




Intention is irrelevant in the USGA Rules of Golf. The only thing that matters in the USGA Rules of Golf is action. 

Absolutely wrong. There are many cases within the Rules where intent is a consideration. Look no further than the very definition of a "stroke".
post #214 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim1 View Post

 

Rule 26-1a does not say anything about where to drop a second ball. It only says where a second ball is to be played, and it directs the reader to Rule 20-5 for clarification. A second ball can be played more than two club lengths away from the original spot either on the teeing ground (Rule 20-5a) or through the green (Rules 20-2c and 20-5b).

 

Since Tiger Woods played a second ball within two club lengths of the original spot through the green, he complied with the phrase "as nearly as possible at'" in Rule 26-1a, as clarified in Rule 20-5.  

 

Again, this is one of those situations where it's a matter of fact, and on this matter of fact, you are wrong.

 

Tiger neither dropped NOR played "as nearly as possible," and at no point is "as nearly as possible" defined as two clublengths.

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim1 View Post

Therefore, Rule 34-3 requires the Tournament Committee to decide what the phrase "as near as possible to" in Rules 20-2b and 20-3c means. It means whatever the Tournament Committee says it means (such as within two club lengths of the original spot, or within a yard, or within a foot, or within an inch).

 

20-3c concerns placing, so it's irrelevant.

 

Tiger did not comply with 20-2b as he didn't drop near enough to the spot.

 

Again, the rules regarding the hazard and such refer to 20-5, and again, 20-5 contains specific language for "through the green" which is where Tiger was:

 

 

20-5. Making Next Stroke From Where Previous Stroke Made

When a player elects or is required to make his next stroke from where a previous stroke was made, he must proceed as follows:

(a) On the Teeing Ground: The ball to be played must be played from within the teeing ground. It may be played from anywhere within the teeing groundand may be teed.

(b) Through the Green: The ball to be played must be dropped and when dropped must first strike a part of the coursethrough the green.

(c) In a Hazard: The ball to be played must be dropped and when dropped must first strike a part of the course in the hazard.

(d) On the Putting Green: The ball to be played must be placed on the putting green.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim1 View Post

Since a precedent has already been established that the phrase "as nearly as possible at" in Rules 26-1a and 27-1a allows a second ball to be PLAYED more than two club lengths away from the original spot either on the teeing ground (Rule 20-5a) or through the green (Rules 20-2c and 20-5b),

 

20-5b says nothing about a ball being played any distance away.

20-2c is about re-dropping.

 

So neither applies as you wish them to.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim1 View Post

the Tournament Committee therefore has that precedent as a reason to decide that the phrase "as near as possible to" in Rules 20-2b and 20-3c allows a second bell to be DROPPED (to first strike the ground) within two club lengths of the original spot either through the green or in a hazard.


Wrong. There's no such precedent. And two yards is larger than two clublengths anyway.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim1 View Post

On April 12th, the Tournament Committee decided that Tiger Woods had NOT violated the USGA Rules of Golf on the 33rd hole. Therefore, the Committee had apparently decided (Rule 34-3) that the phrase "as near as possible to" in Rules 20-2b and 20-3c regarding where a second ball could be DROPPED (could first strike the ground) meant within two club lengths of the original spot. The Committee was allowed in the USGA Rules of Golf to make that decision.  

 

Nope. They simply didn't know that Tiger was specifically aware of where he was supposed to have dropped.

 

In his interview, he made clear that he knew more than just a general area.

post #215 of 233
Quote:

 

Did you actually read the rule 20-5 (Making next stroke from where previous stroke made) and did you notice that Tiger was not on teeing ground?

 

Quote:
(b) Through the Green: The ball to be played must be dropped and when dropped must first strike a part of the course through the green. 

 

Then rule 20-2 regarding dropping:

 

Quote:
b. Where to Drop 
When a ball is to be dropped as near as possible to a specific spot, it must be dropped not nearer the hole than the specific spot which, if it is not precisely known to the player, must be estimated. 

 

And the specific spot in this case was "Making next stroke from where previous stroke made" on Through the Green. Not two yards left, right, front or back.

 

Or do you think there is some twisted way to bend the rules so you can drop anywhere through the green when required to play from same spot again?

 

 

The Rules in the USGA Rules of Golf that discuss where to DROP a second ball relative to the original spot are Rules 20-2b and 20-3c. Those Rules refer to a second ball being DROPPED (first striking the ground) "as near as possible to" the original spot either through the green or in a hazard.

 

However, those Rules to NOT specifically direct the reader to any other Rule for the explanation of what the phrase "as near as possible to" means regarding where a second ball is to be DROPPED (is to first strike the ground).

 

Therefore, Rule 34-3 requires the Tournament Committee to decide what the phrase "as near as possible to" in Rules 20-2b and 20-3c means. It means whatever the Tournament Committee says it means (such as within two club lengths of the original spot, or within a yard, or within a foot, or within an inch).

 

Since a precedent has already been established that the phrase "as nearly as possible at" in Rules 26-1a and 27-1a allows a second ball to be PLAYED more than two club lengths away from the original spot either on the teeing ground (Rule 20-5a) or through the green (Rules 20-2c and 20-5b), the Tournament Committee therefore has that precedent as a reason to decide that the phrase "as near as possible to" in Rules 20-2b and 20-3c allows a second bell to be DROPPED (to first strike the ground) within two club lengths of the original spot either through the green or in a hazard.

 

On April 12th, the Tournament Committee decided that Tiger Woods had NOT violated the USGA Rules of Golf on the 33rd hole. Therefore, the Committee had apparently decided (Rule 34-3) that the phrase "as near as possible to" in Rules 20-2b and 20-3c regarding where a second ball could be DROPPED (could first strike the ground) meant within two club lengths of the original spot. The Committee was allowed in the USGA Rules of Golf to make that decision.  

 

It wasn't until April 13th that the Committee started talking about the phrase "as nearly as possible at" in Rule 26-1a requiring a second ball to be DROPPED ON OR NEXT TO the original spot through the green, which Rule 26-1a most certainly does NOT require.  

 

post #216 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim1 View Post

Since a precedent has already been established that the phrase "as nearly as possible at" in Rules 26-1a and 27-1a allows a second ball to be PLAYED more than two club lengths away from the original spot 

 

Wrong.

 

And you're dangerously close to being restricted from this thread seeing as how you're copying and pasting your own text now.

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