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Tobacco on the Course - Page 4

post #55 of 138

Agreed no one actually said that - but if you read a bunch of posts in a row, you get the feeling smoke is ruining peoples golfing experience or apparently one guy's experience riding in his car with the windows down. People seem pretty upset about it.  I just don't see it.  I don't experience it.  And if I could choose to play golf with a smoker or non - I'd take the non.  But I can't imagine being upset that someone might be smoking in a proximity to me the size of a tee box or a green.  An occasional whiff of smoke outdoors over a 4 hour period just doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

post #56 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by meenman View Post


I'll 2nd this, I actually have a legion of ex-smokers that hang around me before we tee off on Saturdays because they love and miss the smell if cigar smoke.

I may be biased because I have been in the tobacco industry for 20 plus years, but the average non-smoker has no idea how much tax money collected from tobacco subsidises their own tax bill.

Cigarette smoking has almost become a class issue and cigarette taxes are pretty much the only way that money gets paid back into the system from the poor.

Unfortunately, every rise in tobacco taxes is also detrimental to the economy. Take out taxes and the average pack of Marlboros would cost about $3.60 a pack. There is $10 in federal tax on every carton plus each states additional tax and in some areas there is an additional county and city tax.

These taxes cheapen the lower class' s money. Does it look like our government has done a good job spending it?

 

Strawman argument. Taxes and how they are used is another issue.

 

Smoking kills people and second hand smoke does as well. I don't want to be around it and I shouldn't ever have to be around it in public places.

post #57 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey View Post

Agreed no one actually said that - but if you read a bunch of posts in a row, you get the feeling smoke is ruining peoples golfing experience or apparently one guy's experience riding in his car with the windows down. People seem pretty upset about it.  I just don't see it.  I don't experience it.  And if I could choose to play golf with a smoker or non - I'd take the non.  But I can't imagine being upset that someone might be smoking in a proximity to me the size of a tee box or a green.  An occasional whiff of smoke outdoors over a 4 hour period just doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

 

So, you think it's alright for a person to flick ashes and butts out thier car window? What about trash? Is that OK too? Because that's what it is: trash.

post #58 of 138
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post

 

So, you think it's alright for a person to flick ashes and butts out thier car window? What about trash? Is that OK too? Because that's what it is: trash.

 

+1 Definitely not okay for anyone to litter. People shouldn't have to deal with other people's trash.

post #59 of 138
I get all the second hand smoke argument, that's why I don't smoke close to others. You all should really thank a smoker once in a while, the taxes alone pay for so much in society that you all seem to forget.
post #60 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey View Post

Agreed no one actually said that - but if you read a bunch of posts in a row, you get the feeling smoke is ruining peoples golfing experience or apparently one guy's experience riding in his car with the windows down. People seem pretty upset about it.  I just don't see it.  I don't experience it.  And if I could choose to play golf with a smoker or non - I'd take the non.  But I can't imagine being upset that someone might be smoking in a proximity to me the size of a tee box or a green.  An occasional whiff of smoke outdoors over a 4 hour period just doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

LOL, yeah, when I read something like that I stop taking the person seriously.  You are sitting at a stop light with a bunch of cars all polluting the air with their exhaust fumes, yet somehow you are able to detect one exhale of smoke from a cigarette in the car in front of you?  I'm sorry, but that is ridiculous.  (Unless he lives on Catalina Island or some similar place that doesn't allow cars and everybody drives electric golf carts - but I imagine that he would have mentioned that) ;)

 

The only thing I ever notice regarding smokers on the road is when one of them directly in front of me chucks a butt out the window at night.  You can see the little sparks from the end when its rolling on the ground, and I always have this ridiculous thought flash through my head as I'm driving over it that somehow it's going to bounce up into some part of my car and make me blow up. ;)

post #61 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post

So, you think it's alright for a person to flick ashes and butts out thier car window? What about trash? Is that OK too? Because that's what it is: trash.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MPtheKid View Post

+1 Definitely not okay for anyone to litter. People shouldn't have to deal with other people's trash.

No, that's not what he's referring to.  He's talking about this ... http://thesandtrap.com/t/66778/tobacco-on-the-course/0_30#post_840297

 

That is absurd.  If you lock me in a room with a person smoking a cigarette constantly for 30 minutes, I will probably cough a little bit and be annoyed.  Lock me in a room with the exhaust from a car for 30 minutes and I will be dead.

 

If you are worried about one puff of smoke from one cigarette in another car while driving around with your windows down, then, well, you can guess what I think of that.

post #62 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

LOL, yeah, when I read something like that I stop taking the person seriously.  You are sitting at a stop light with a bunch of cars all polluting the air with their exhaust fumes, yet somehow you are able to detect one exhale of smoke from a cigarette in the car in front of you?  I'm sorry, but that is ridiculous.  (Unless he lives on Catalina Island or some similar place that doesn't allow cars and everybody drives electric golf carts - but I imagine that he would have mentioned that) ;)

 

The only thing I ever notice regarding smokers on the road is when one of them directly in front of me chucks a butt out the window at night.  You can see the little sparks from the end when its rolling on the ground, and I always have this ridiculous thought flash through my head as I'm driving over it that somehow it's going to bounce up into some part of my car and make me blow up. ;)

 

It's not the smoke, it's the ashes and the butts. That, my friend, is littering. I was very clear about that.

post #63 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

 

No, that's not what he's referring to.  He's talking about this ... http://thesandtrap.com/t/66778/tobacco-on-the-course/0_30#post_840297

 

That is absurd.  If you lock me in a room with a person smoking a cigarette constantly for 30 minutes, I will probably cough a little bit and be annoyed.  Lock me in a room with the exhaust from a car for 30 minutes and I will be dead.

 

If you are worried about one puff of smoke from one cigarette in another car while driving around with your windows down, then, well, you can guess what I think of that.

How dare you come into this thread and interject logic and reason into the discussion!!! 

post #64 of 138
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

 

No, that's not what he's referring to.  He's talking about this ... http://thesandtrap.com/t/66778/tobacco-on-the-course/0_30#post_840297

 

That is absurd.  If you lock me in a room with a person smoking a cigarette constantly for 30 minutes, I will probably cough a little bit and be annoyed.  Lock me in a room with the exhaust from a car for 30 minutes and I will be dead.

 

If you are worried about one puff of smoke from one cigarette in another car while driving around with your windows down, then, well, you can guess what I think of that.

 

Okay agreed. I was agreeing with the piece about littering. I don't care about second hand smoke on the course or anywhere else to be honest. I just don't like people throwing trash where it doesn't belong.

post #65 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by eich41 View Post

How dare you come into this thread and interject logic and reason into the discussion!!! 

 

OK. Let's hear a logical and reasonable reason for people to smoke (or dip) in the first place.

post #66 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post

 

So, you think it's alright for a person to flick ashes and butts out thier car window? What about trash? Is that OK too? Because that's what it is: trash.

I never wrote anything about it being OK to throw butts on the ground. And it looks like golfingdad might have cleared up a misunderstanding on that.  Butts would definitely be considered trash - I think by anyone.  Not sure where you are going with this one.

post #67 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey View Post

I never wrote anything about it being OK to throw butts on the ground. And it looks like golfingdad might have cleared up a misunderstanding on that.  Butts would definitely be considered trash - I think by anyone.  Not sure where you are going with this one.

 

I wrote a post yesterday about that circumstance (flicking shes and throwing butts) yesterday. I assumed that was the post you were referring to.

post #68 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post

It's not the smoke, it's the ashes and the butts. That, my friend, is littering. I was very clear about that.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post

I wrote a post yesterday about that circumstance (flicking shes and throwing butts) yesterday. I assumed that was the post you were referring to.

Yeah, I think it's already been cleared up, but neither he (nor I) was referring to you.  c2_beer.gif  Nobody here - man I sure hope so - thinks that throwing sh*t out their window is OK.

post #69 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post

 

OK. Let's hear a logical and reasonable reason for people to smoke (or dip) in the first place.

Perhaps some find it enjoyable.  Just like some find drinking enjoyable.  Others find bungee jumping, base jumping, and other dangerous activities enjoyable.  Some people suck down 7 lattes a day, and some people dine at McDonalds 12 times a week.  All of those things aren't good for you, and/or increase your risk of dying an early(er) age. 

 

But guess what, we're all free to pursue what we find enjoyment in.  Personally, I enjoy smoking an occasional fine cigar.  I find it relaxing, and I, like almost all other cigar smokers, enjoy the times shared with family and friends while enjoying a good smoke.  It's relaxing, and I have some great memories of those moments.  For the record, I smoke about 12-15 cigars A YEAR.  Sure I know it's not "good" for me.  It might cause me to lose a couple years off my life (maybe not), but my goal in life isn't simply to live as long as possible by going without pleasures in life.  What good does that do?  Sure I could live to be 105 by doing only the most healthy, risk averse activities, and depriving myself of things I enjoy.  However, I'd rather live to be 80 while from time to time enjoying a nice juicy bone in ribeye, sipping on an occasional cocktail, and enjoying an occasional cigar with good friends. 

 

Also for the record, I go out of my way to try to minimize any impact on those around me when I do smoke.  I rarely have a cigar in public, and if I do I make sure I find an area without many people around.  I also rarely have a cigar while golfing, but on occasion when playing a casual round with friends, we all enjoy a nice stick.  I don't ash on the greens, I throw away the butt when finished. 

 

I think it's reasonable for someone who wishes to smoke to do so in a way that minimizes the affect on others.  In fact I helped my wife when her AMA group lobbied for the ban of smoking in restaurants in Michigan.  I also find it reasonable that someone who wishes to smoke could do so on a golf course without someone throwing a fit when the slightest scent of smoke is in the air. 

post #70 of 138
Go to a cigar event. Cigar smokers are some of the most friendly and generous people there are.

There is an older guy at my club that not only shares my passion for Loudmouth clothing, but also for fine cigars. Every week one of us is giving the other several high end cigars that we discovered during the week.
post #71 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by meenman View Post


I'll 2nd this, I actually have a legion of ex-smokers that hang around me before we tee off on Saturdays because they love and miss the smell if cigar smoke.

I may be biased because I have been in the tobacco industry for 20 plus years, but the average non-smoker has no idea how much tax money collected from tobacco subsidises their own tax bill.

Cigarette smoking has almost become a class issue and cigarette taxes are pretty much the only way that money gets paid back into the system from the poor.

Unfortunately, every rise in tobacco taxes is also detrimental to the economy. Take out taxes and the average pack of Marlboros would cost about $3.60 a pack. There is $10 in federal tax on every carton plus each states additional tax and in some areas there is an additional county and city tax.

These taxes cheapen the lower class' s money. Does it look like our government has done a good job spending it?

I agree about the tax-on-the-poor point - that's quite true that many poor people probably pay more in taxes for cigarettes than they do for anything else including income taxes.

 

The rest of your points smell worse than a trailer load of bull manure and lit cigars. 

 

I've never met a single person in my life who didn't smoke cigars who claimed to like the smell; obviously I've discussed the issue with only a small percentage of the people I've met, though, but I find altogether incredible your claims about non-smokers loving the smell of cigars.  Most of the former smokers I know are more vocally anti-smoking than the average person who never smoked.

 

The increased costs to society in all ways from the health problems caused by tobacco - anywhere from the increase in missed days at work from increased illnesses to the costs of treating lung cancer and heart disease to the costs of supporting persons whose family's wage earner died an unexpectedly early death from tobacco-related disease - grossly outweigh the revenue from tobacco taxes.  If you're in the industry I'm sure you have some figures that say otherwise, but they're certainly as credible as the tobacco industry's former claims about the lack of health concerns from tobacco smoke.  You remember that line of marketing and lobbying, don't you?

 

You spending 20 years in the tobacco business and being biased?  Don't be so rough on yourself - I'm sure you're at least somewhat less biased and are a bit more open minded than your average Klansman or Jihadist are about the topics that are important to them.  Heck, you'll probably admit that there is some evidence that suggests that smoking may be a health risk.

 

========

 

To those saying I'm being unreasonable for disliking smoking even outdoors, well, how would you like it if I came up to you and blew a whistle or airhorn near your ear.  What if I said "Stop complaining - it's outdoors, not indoors, so why are you bothered?  I have a right to my self-indulgent, altogether unnecessary habit."  If I said I like making the noise, then there's every bit as much reason and rationale behind my habit of assaulting someone's sense of hearing as the average smoker's invasion of other people's sense of smell.  What's the difference aside from one bad habit used to be very popular and has not fully faded into obscurity yet?  Both are rude, selfish, and unnecessary habits.

 

I honestly don't think I've ever met a smoker that is a truly conscientious person - they ALL litter at some time or another, even if a rare one does try not to most of the time.  They all smoke in public places - no smoker conscientiously refuses to light up a cigarette as they walk down the street out of concern for others that will have to smell their smoke. 

 

The bottom line is that smokers started a habit that they knew would bother and annoy a lot of people, or if they are older, they have continued that disgusting habit for decades knowing full well it bothers many people, and they obviously don't care.  They simply don't care if their stench is annoying to other people, otherwise they'd quit.  That makes them selfish.  On rare occasions when I've got the house to myself on a weekend evening, I'll crank a movie on the home theater system loud enough to have some chest-shaking explosions coming through on my subwoofer.  But before I did such a thing, I walked outside my house to make sure it would not be so loud to be noticeable to my neighbors and I have since asked them if they have ever noticed my occasional loud movie (they have not).  No smoker goes to this extent to make sure that their habit does not bother others. 

 

If I like to have a glass of wine or pint of good ale or even a caffinated beverage, even if it had the same health risk as a cigarette or cigar, it's not the same thing as smoking for the very simple reason that I do not share it with anyone else (unless they want a taste).  I am not forcing it upon any other person.

 

Quite frankly, I think that at least half the people who claim to like the smell of cigars or cigarettes are lying.  I've heard several women confess that they used to smoke when going out to bars back in college because they thought it looked cool and sophisticated but they never liked the smell.  I'm sure it's the same thing for a lot of guys lighting up a stogy, trying to project an image of being a powerful, successful, man's man.

post #72 of 138

Tobacco will always solicit a lot of comments.  I am a reformed smoker and have not touched the stuff for over 24 years.  However when I smoked I enjoyed it. But I believe quitting was the most difficult thing I ever did and probably the best thing I ever did for my health.  For the record I don't enjoy playing with tobacco users but I keep my mouth shut as I know they can't help themselves.  I never met a tobacco user that I thought wouldn't quit if it was easy to.  It is an enjoyable addiction, but a dangerous one.

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