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post #73 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisguy View Post

I agree about the tax-on-the-poor point - that's quite true that many poor people probably pay more in taxes for cigarettes than they do for anything else including income taxes.

The rest of your points smell worse than a trailer load of bull manure and lit cigars. 

I've never met a single person in my life who didn't smoke cigars who claimed to like the smell; obviously I've discussed the issue with only a small percentage of the people I've met, though, but I find altogether incredible your claims about non-smokers loving the smell of cigars.  Most of the former smokers I know are more vocally anti-smoking than the average person who never smoked.

The increased costs to society in all ways from the health problems caused by tobacco - anywhere from the increase in missed days at work from increased illnesses to the costs of treating lung cancer and heart disease to the costs of supporting persons whose family's wage earner died an unexpectedly early death from tobacco-related disease - grossly outweigh the revenue from tobacco taxes.  If you're in the industry I'm sure you have some figures that say otherwise, but they're certainly as credible as the tobacco industry's former claims about the lack of health concerns from tobacco smoke.  You remember that line of marketing and lobbying, don't you?

You spending 20 years in the tobacco business and being biased?  Don't be so rough on yourself - I'm sure you're at least somewhat less biased and are a bit more open minded than your average Klansman or Jihadist are about the topics that are important to them.  Heck, you'll probably admit that there is some evidence that suggests that smoking may be a health risk.

========

To those saying I'm being unreasonable for disliking smoking even outdoors, well, how would you like it if I came up to you and blew a whistle or airhorn near your ear.  What if I said "Stop complaining - it's outdoors, not indoors, so why are you bothered?  I have a right to my self-indulgent, altogether unnecessary habit."  If I said I like making the noise, then there's every bit as much reason and rationale behind my habit of assaulting someone's sense of hearing as the average smoker's invasion of other people's sense of smell.  What's the difference aside from one bad habit used to be very popular and has not fully faded into obscurity yet?  Both are rude, selfish, and unnecessary habits.

I honestly don't think I've ever met a smoker that is a truly conscientious person - they ALL litter at some time or another, even if a rare one does try not to most of the time.  They all smoke in public places - no smoker conscientiously refuses to light up a cigarette as they walk down the street out of concern for others that will have to smell their smoke. 

The bottom line is that smokers started a habit that they knew would bother and annoy a lot of people, or if they are older, they have continued that disgusting habit for decades knowing full well it bothers many people, and they obviously don't care.  They simply don't care if their stench is annoying to other people, otherwise they'd quit.  That makes them selfish.  On rare occasions when I've got the house to myself on a weekend evening, I'll crank a movie on the home theater system loud enough to have some chest-shaking explosions coming through on my subwoofer.  But before I did such a thing, I walked outside my house to make sure it would not be so loud to be noticeable to my neighbors and I have since asked them if they have ever noticed my occasional loud movie (they have not).  No smoker goes to this extent to make sure that their habit does not bother others. 

If I like to have a glass of wine or pint of good ale or even a caffinated beverage, even if it had the same health risk as a cigarette or cigar, it's not the same thing as smoking for the very simple reason that I do not share it with anyone else (unless they want a taste).  I am not forcing it upon any other person.

Quite frankly, I think that at least half the people who claim to like the smell of cigars or cigarettes are lying.  I've heard several women confess that they used to smoke when going out to bars back in college because they thought it looked cool and sophisticated but they never liked the smell.  I'm sure it's the same thing for a lot of guys lighting up a stogy, trying to project an image of being a powerful, successful, man's man.
As an ex smoker I agree that it's pretty much a useless habit but please, enough with your hyperbole filled rants. Did you really just compare somebody who works in the tobacco industry to a racist and a terrorist? Really?

We all get it, waaaaaaa I have allergies so nobody should be allowed to smoke on a golf course because I might smell it. Waaaaaaaa, I went to an outdoor concert where I knew smoking would be allowed and somebody had the nerve to light up outdoors, where its perfectly legal to do so. I don't like to be places where I know there will be a lot of smoke so guess what? I don't go.
post #74 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisguy View Post

I've never met a single person in my life who didn't smoke cigars who claimed to like the smell; obviously I've discussed the issue with only a small percentage of the people I've met, though, but I find altogether incredible your claims about non-smokers loving the smell of cigars.  Most of the former smokers I know are more vocally anti-smoking than the average person who never smoked.

While I would not say that I actually "like" the smell of a cigar, I usually don't mind it.  Same is true for pipe tobacco ... although that's even more rare these days.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisguy View Post

To those saying I'm being unreasonable for disliking smoking even outdoors, well, how would you like it if I came up to you and blew a whistle or airhorn near your ear.  What if I said "Stop complaining - it's outdoors, not indoors, so why are you bothered?  I have a right to my self-indulgent, altogether unnecessary habit."  If I said I like making the noise, then there's every bit as much reason and rationale behind my habit of assaulting someone's sense of hearing as the average smoker's invasion of other people's sense of smell.  What's the difference aside from one bad habit used to be very popular and has not fully faded into obscurity yet?  Both are rude, selfish, and unnecessary habits.

This is a fair point ...

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisguy View Post

I honestly don't think I've ever met a smoker that is a truly conscientious person - they ALL litter at some time or another, even if a rare one does try not to most of the time.  They all smoke in public places - no smoker conscientiously refuses to light up a cigarette as they walk down the street out of concern for others that will have to smell their smoke. 

 

The bottom line is that smokers started a habit that they knew would bother and annoy a lot of people, or if they are older, they have continued that disgusting habit for decades knowing full well it bothers many people, and they obviously don't care.  They simply don't care if their stench is annoying to other people, otherwise they'd quit.  That makes them selfish.  On rare occasions when I've got the house to myself on a weekend evening, I'll crank a movie on the home theater system loud enough to have some chest-shaking explosions coming through on my subwoofer.  But before I did such a thing, I walked outside my house to make sure it would not be so loud to be noticeable to my neighbors and I have since asked them if they have ever noticed my occasional loud movie (they have not).  No smoker goes to this extent to make sure that their habit does not bother others.

 

If I like to have a glass of wine or pint of good ale or even a caffinated beverage, even if it had the same health risk as a cigarette or cigar, it's not the same thing as smoking for the very simple reason that I do not share it with anyone else (unless they want a taste).  I am not forcing it upon any other person.

 

Quite frankly, I think that at least half the people who claim to like the smell of cigars or cigarettes are lying.  I've heard several women confess that they used to smoke when going out to bars back in college because they thought it looked cool and sophisticated but they never liked the smell.  I'm sure it's the same thing for a lot of guys lighting up a stogy, trying to project an image of being a powerful, successful, man's man.

However, this is not.  This is stereotyping at its finest.  Just because people have one bad habit doesn't make them all around d**ks.  There are plenty of smokers out there who have consideration for other people exactly like you and your movies.  (Speaking of movies ... the first half of your post directed at meenman reminds me of one of my favorites ... "Thank You For Smoking" ... you should see it, its great!  Aaron Eckhart, Katie Holmes (pre-Tom Cruise)) :)  But I digress ...

 

Obviously, there are plenty of smokers who also happen to be inconsiderate jerks, but by no means are they all like that.

post #75 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by meenman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyder View Post


I understand that you're allergic and are obviously very against smoking, but not all cigars smell like sewers. For example, the CAO Moontrance cigarillos are amazing and smell like bourbon fruit and vanilla (http://www.bestcigarprices.com/cigar-directory/c.a.o./cao-flavours-~-moontrance-cigarillos-cigar/238-5919.htm). 


Aside from that, smokers should be allowed to smoke on all courses so long as they are respectful and do throw away their butts properly (either in a can, bottle, or trash can). I personally keep an empty can/bottle with me and throw my butts in it until I'm near a trash can to throw them away.


I would also have to disagree with you that "less than one percent of smokers are conscientious and thoughtful people". I'm not sure what skewed your unrealistic opinion, but you've obviously had the misfortune of surrounding yourself with the wrong people, or you're just that guy.


I would also venture to say that too many non-smokers who want to place us smokers in a little glass bio-dome need to realize just how much our tax dollars are contributing towards your entertainment and benefit before you say that your tax money is paying for our fires and what not. The next time you're in a casino, professional sports arena/stadium/field, make sure you thank smokers. That money by far surpasses the money used on idiots starting fires.

I'll 2nd this, I actually have a legion of ex-smokers that hang around me before we tee off on Saturdays because they love and miss the smell if cigar smoke.

I may be biased because I have been in the tobacco industry for 20 plus years, but the average non-smoker has no idea how much tax money collected from tobacco subsidises their own tax bill.

Cigarette smoking has almost become a class issue and cigarette taxes are pretty much the only way that money gets paid back into the system from the poor.

Unfortunately, every rise in tobacco taxes is also detrimental to the economy. Take out taxes and the average pack of Marlboros would cost about $3.60 a pack. There is $10 in federal tax on every carton plus each states additional tax and in some areas there is an additional county and city tax.

These taxes cheapen the lower class' s money. Does it look like our government has done a good job spending it?

 

Horsefeathers.  All those taxes do is balance the added cost of health insurance caused by the rampant health problems associated with smoking.

post #76 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

 

Horsefeathers.  All those taxes do is balance the added cost of health insurance caused by the rampant health problems associated with smoking.

Actually, you are the naive one here - tobacco is nothing more than a revenue generator for the government - it is a popular item to tax and they will tax it until tax revenues decline. Some are trying a soda tax now and someday they could just tax golfers more. It never ends..

 

Years ago a major tobacco company went to the state of New York and suggested that they just make cigarettes illegal - of course they declined to - they could not live without the revenue.

post #77 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisguy View Post

I agree about the tax-on-the-poor point - that's quite true that many poor people probably pay more in taxes for cigarettes than they do for anything else including income taxes.

 

The rest of your points smell worse than a trailer load of bull manure and lit cigars. 

 

I've never met a single person in my life who didn't smoke cigars who claimed to like the smell; obviously I've discussed the issue with only a small percentage of the people I've met, though, but I find altogether incredible your claims about non-smokers loving the smell of cigars.  Most of the former smokers I know are more vocally anti-smoking than the average person who never smoked.

 

The increased costs to society in all ways from the health problems caused by tobacco - anywhere from the increase in missed days at work from increased illnesses to the costs of treating lung cancer and heart disease to the costs of supporting persons whose family's wage earner died an unexpectedly early death from tobacco-related disease - grossly outweigh the revenue from tobacco taxes.  If you're in the industry I'm sure you have some figures that say otherwise, but they're certainly as credible as the tobacco industry's former claims about the lack of health concerns from tobacco smoke.  You remember that line of marketing and lobbying, don't you?

 

You spending 20 years in the tobacco business and being biased?  Don't be so rough on yourself - I'm sure you're at least somewhat less biased and are a bit more open minded than your average Klansman or Jihadist are about the topics that are important to them.  Heck, you'll probably admit that there is some evidence that suggests that smoking may be a health risk.

 

========

 

To those saying I'm being unreasonable for disliking smoking even outdoors, well, how would you like it if I came up to you and blew a whistle or airhorn near your ear.  What if I said "Stop complaining - it's outdoors, not indoors, so why are you bothered?  I have a right to my self-indulgent, altogether unnecessary habit."  If I said I like making the noise, then there's every bit as much reason and rationale behind my habit of assaulting someone's sense of hearing as the average smoker's invasion of other people's sense of smell.  What's the difference aside from one bad habit used to be very popular and has not fully faded into obscurity yet?  Both are rude, selfish, and unnecessary habits.

 

I honestly don't think I've ever met a smoker that is a truly conscientious person - they ALL litter at some time or another, even if a rare one does try not to most of the time.  They all smoke in public places - no smoker conscientiously refuses to light up a cigarette as they walk down the street out of concern for others that will have to smell their smoke. 

 

The bottom line is that smokers started a habit that they knew would bother and annoy a lot of people, or if they are older, they have continued that disgusting habit for decades knowing full well it bothers many people, and they obviously don't care.  They simply don't care if their stench is annoying to other people, otherwise they'd quit.  That makes them selfish.  On rare occasions when I've got the house to myself on a weekend evening, I'll crank a movie on the home theater system loud enough to have some chest-shaking explosions coming through on my subwoofer.  But before I did such a thing, I walked outside my house to make sure it would not be so loud to be noticeable to my neighbors and I have since asked them if they have ever noticed my occasional loud movie (they have not).  No smoker goes to this extent to make sure that their habit does not bother others. 

 

If I like to have a glass of wine or pint of good ale or even a caffinated beverage, even if it had the same health risk as a cigarette or cigar, it's not the same thing as smoking for the very simple reason that I do not share it with anyone else (unless they want a taste).  I am not forcing it upon any other person.

 

Quite frankly, I think that at least half the people who claim to like the smell of cigars or cigarettes are lying.  I've heard several women confess that they used to smoke when going out to bars back in college because they thought it looked cool and sophisticated but they never liked the smell.  I'm sure it's the same thing for a lot of guys lighting up a stogy, trying to project an image of being a powerful, successful, man's man.

Again you fail miserably at drawing an accurate parallel and instead use gross hyperbole to try to prove your point.  Your example would only hold water if while enjoying my cigar, I walked up to you and stood there blowing my smoke directly in your face.  I can guarantee you've never had someone do that. 

 

At the end of the day, the reality is that there is no reason that everyone can't accommodate each other.  Most cigar smokers I know (I don't know many people who smoke cigarettes) are quite considerate in trying to ensure there's a "buffer" around them when smoking in a public place.  That being said, if I find a nice spot with nobody around, and start smoking my cigar, and you come along, sit/stand next to me and start complaining, that's your problem.  Let's be honest here, there aren't many public places left where someone can still smoke.  I think if those who wish to smoke make an effort to minimize the affect on others, I don't think it's unreasonable for a non smoker to either try to avoid the occasional smoker they may encounter, or deal with the minor annoyance they may find of the faint smell of smoke. 

 

Really it all comes down to tolerance for one another.  Being unreasonable and throwing a fit about the smell of smoke in an outdoor area and acting as if everyone should conform to what you want, is just as obnoxious and you're just as big of an ass as the guy lighting one up at the table right next to you and blowing smoke your way the whole time.  Why can't everyone give a little bit of courtesy and respect to one another? 

 

As to your last line, I'll just say that you have a lot of generalizations and misconceived notions that are so ignorant I find it comical.  Keep on keepin on Dirk.

post #78 of 138

I think it is hilarious how some of you feel like your beliefs or feelings are more important than another individuals.  This is the problem with our society.  You all are concerned about the environmental factors of second hand smoke on the golf course.  Yet you drive there in your Hummers, you rent a gas powered golf cart and you proceed to play on a tract of land that is appropriated for your pleasure.  There are hundreds if not thousands of individuals driving by these courses on a daily basis that HATE golf and golfers.  Yet, they are not honking their horns, yelling out the windows or damaging our precious courses.  They are minding their own business. 

I also would like to add that unless you are wearing long sleeve shirts, 100+ SPF sunscreen and a big sombrero you have bigger worries of cancer than cigarette smoke.  I think everyone that is all high and mighty about this subject look in the mirror and make sure that they have a good physique and are healthy as an ox before they question why someone is doing something that is bad for their health.  Then if you feel as if you are the perfect specimen of a human being, come back here and argue how it is affecting your godly like body.

post #79 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by meenman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

 

Horsefeathers.  All those taxes do is balance the added cost of health insurance caused by the rampant health problems associated with smoking.

Actually, you are the naive one here - tobacco is nothing more than a revenue generator for the government - it is a popular item to tax and they will tax it until tax revenues decline. Some are trying a soda tax now and someday they could just tax golfers more. It never ends..

 

The same thing can be said for alcohol.  So if it's such a wonderful revenue generator, why do they fight so hard against the legalization of marijuana?  They could tax the crap out of that too and generate even more revenue, maybe actually apply something against the national debt and do some good for a change.   Lay off half  of the DEA agents and save some money while generating more revenue at the same time.  

 

Of course the reason that they have to invent new taxes is because they have spent themselves so deeply into debt that they have to come up with something so that the general public doesn't realize that it's being hit with a new tax.  Tobacco use has been on the decline for a couple of decades at least, and doesn't show any signs of that trend changing.  They either need to cut spending or find new sources of revenue, and government being what it is, they don't appear to be willing to stop throwing our money away.

post #80 of 138

I think it would be best to keep political views to ones self on these boards.  JMHO, and YRMV.

post #81 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

 

The same thing can be said for alcohol.  So if it's such a wonderful revenue generator, why do they fight so hard against the legalization of marijuana?  They could tax the crap out of that too and generate even more revenue, maybe actually apply something against the national debt and do some good for a change.   Lay off half  of the DEA agents and save some money while generating more revenue at the same time.  

 

Of course the reason that they have to invent new taxes is because they have spent themselves so deeply into debt that they have to come up with something so that the general public doesn't realize that it's being hit with a new tax.  Tobacco use has been on the decline for a couple of decades at least, and doesn't show any signs of that trend changing.  They either need to cut spending or find new sources of revenue, and government being what it is, they don't appear to be willing to stop throwing our money away.

I know we are getting way off topic here, but in my opinion - the liquor lobby has done a much better job than the tobacco industry. When an industry gets caught in a few lies - it is much easier to gang up on them. It has really been the cigarette/chew that has been hit much harder than the cigar industry tax wise. 

 

Years ago, when Florida raised its cigarette tax from $3+ a carton to $13.40(which of course was not listed as a tax but as a *users fee*), it came right after the feds went from $3 to $10/carton. The state made all of their money off of the floor tax and have seen people switch to *filtered* cigars - which are nothing more than low end cigarettes with a brown paper. I worked for a company that added a little weight to their product so they would be taxed like a large cigar instead of a little cigar. Now the state spends more money auditing wholesalers and retailers and can not figure out why their revenue isnt at their projections. Something else will be on the hit list next - unfortunately the freeloaders living off of all of us seem to be protected.

post #82 of 138

I never play golf without a dip of Skoal Straight........

 

I'm a non-smoker.....and I'm not a fan of the "Smoke Nazi's" that b!tch about about people smoking in wide open outdoor spaces.  I can understand not wanting to be in a confined smoke filled indoor environment.  I'm old enough to remember the days when virtually every public building allowed smoking and every stitch of clothing reeked of smoke whether you smoked or not...YUCK.

 

When it comes to the outdoors....I cannot relate.  Not by a long shot...... 

post #83 of 138

This thread was not nearly as fun as the "Weed on the Golf Course Thread".  Something I have never done (don't think), but welcome anyone who wants to.

 

How long has it been since there was a "Alcohol on the GC" thread?

post #84 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

Your right to wave your fists around ends at another person's nose. Your right to kill yourself by smoking ends at similar location. Your right to drink all you want ends when you become a threat to others.

 

Chew all you want, just don't spit your crap juice where it might ruin anything of mine.

 

And grow up, buddy. The machismo act doesn't play.

You yankees are the reason this country sucks. Waiving your rights to stand up for every individual. Its sad that you feel so weak that you wouldnt fight another man. down here in the south your right to wave your fists doesnt end at another persons nose if you win that fight. We don't smoking rights to kindly and most of us don't smoke. Its just another way you have let the government encroach on your personal space. Second hand smoke should be the least of your worries in life. You are much more likely to die from prostate cancer than lung cancer from second hand smoke on a golf course, bar or restaurant.

post #85 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpj070 View Post

You yankees are the reason this country sucks. Waiving your rights to stand up for every individual. Its sad that you feel so weak that you wouldnt fight another man. down here in the south your right to wave your fists doesnt end at another persons nose if you win that fight. We don't smoking rights to kindly and most of us don't smoke. Its just another way you have let the government encroach on your personal space. Second hand smoke should be the least of your worries in life. You are much more likely to die from prostate cancer than lung cancer from second hand smoke on a golf course, bar or restaurant.

 

No, second hand smoke should not BE a worry in my life, and if the odds of dying from lung cancer caused by second-hand smoke are greater than 0.00%, then something's wrong.

 

It's not the government encroaching on your "personal space" - it's a smoker causing harm to another person. It's a smoker not only encroaching on another person's "personal space" but literally getting inside their bodies and causing harm.

 

Also, because you're a douche, you've been restricted from the thread.

post #86 of 138

Personally I'm not a fan of any of it. Dip and chew always result in spit on greens or the floor of the carts. Smoking? Just not a fan. Drinking leads to inconsiderate *******s. Peace.g2_eek.gif

post #87 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpj070 View Post

You yankees are the reason this country sucks.

Nice shot!

post #88 of 138

I get that some people like their smokes, and I have nothing against you guys.

But anytime I am paired up with someone who smokes I know that I will spend the entire round trying to hide upwind from him.

Try as I might I always go home smelling gross with a huge headache.

Not a fan of people that smoke on the course.

post #89 of 138

People smoking on the golf course doesn't bother me much.  I actually find it amusing to watch guys swing with a cigar in their mouth.  What bothers me is when some guys get drunk by the turn and become an etiquette violator the rest of the round.

post #90 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCfanatic35 View Post

People smoking on the golf course doesn't bother me much.  I actually find it amusing to watch guys swing with a cigar in their mouth.  What bothers me is when some guys get drunk by the turn and become an etiquette violator the rest of the round.
I'm always afraid they'll singe their arms on the backswing when I see that. Lol.
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