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# 2013 Players at TPC Sawgrass, Tiger and Sergio Feud Discussion Thread - Page 19

Quote:
Originally Posted by huskyhater

He has 'bent the rues' the last 2 Tourneys he's played in...........I say that anybody who roots for this guy is VERY liable to cheat on the course themselves. There should be an asterisk put on this Players...........

I don't care for Tiger. Love his golf, dislike the man.

Having said that, your post has got to be one of the most inflammatory posts I've ever seen, as well as demonstrating a stunning ignorance of the rules of golf.

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These are the decisions which directly address this issue.  When the ball crosses the margin while still in flight, and either hooking or slicing, the exact point is never going to be ascertainable.  The player has no choice but to make his best estimate after polling anyone who may have seen the incident.  Tiger did so, and all agreed that he was in the right place.  He was still some 60 yards back from where the ball splashed.

Quote:

## 26-1/16

#### Point Where Ball Last Crossed Margin of Lateral Water Hazard Determined and Ball Dropped; Point Then Proves to Be Wrong Point

Q.In stroke play, A's ball goes into a lateral water hazard and is not found. A uses his best judgment in determining the point where the ball last crossed the hazard margin. B, A's marker and a fellow-competitor, agrees with that judgment and A drops a ball in accordance with Rule 26-1c, using the agreed point on the margin as the reference point. Before A makes his next stroke, C, another fellow-competitor, says that A's ball last crossed the hazard margin 20 yards beyond the point judged by A to be the point where the ball last crossed. A's ball is then found where C said it would be. What is the ruling?

A.When A dropped the ball under Rule 26-1, it was known or virtually certain that his original ball lay in the lateral water hazard. Therefore, Rule 26-1 was the applicable Rule and the player proceeded correctly in that he was permitted to put a ball into play under that Rule. However, as he dropped his ball in a wrong place, A must correct the error under Rule 20-6. He must proceed in accordance with any of the applicable options under Rule 26-1 with respect to the correct reference point (see Decision 20-6/2). A is precluded from playing the original ball from the hazard.

## 26-1/17

#### Point Where Ball Last Crossed Margin of Lateral Water Hazard Determined and Ball Dropped and Played; Point Then Proves to Be Wrong Point

Q.In the circumstances described in Decision 26-1/16, what is the ruling if A, having dropped a ball in a wrong place, plays it before his error is discovered?

A.A must continue play with the ball played from a wrong place, without penalty. Applying a penalty under Rule 26-1 for playing from a wrong place (see Rule 20-7) is not appropriate. Otherwise, a competitor would risk incurring a penalty every time he makes an honest judgment as to the point where his ball last crosses a water-hazard margin and that judgment subsequently proves incorrect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lefty-Golfer

it is just another reason why the rules of golf are old, out of date and need to be either revised or TV reports from views not possesed on the ground should not be part of the event. it is really kind of silly if you think about it.

The rules of golf cover this exact ruling as shown by Fourputt. You will have to explain to me how the Rules of Golf  are out of date and needing a revision if they covered the rule exactly regardless of whether or not it was caught on tape.
Sounds like you are talking out of your .

I would call the Masters a loss of judgement after having a great shot end up bad

He did nothing wrong at TPC. Should he have waited for the rules official, maybe. But what would have the rules official done, gone to everyone who saw the flight of the ball and asked, "Were did it enter the hazard". They would have said the same thing were tiger dropped his ball, and play would resume. There would be no video replay, and if people called in, so what. That is how rulings in golf happen, they are determined by eye witness ON THE GOLF COURSE. If they stopped play to video review every possible entry to a hazard to try to find the exact spot were it entered, rounds would never end. Especially at TPC

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamo

The difference is that Sergio plainly didn't need to attack that pin.

Meh.  It's "GOLF" no one 'needs' to do anything....- He was having a good day, feeling the shots, feeling 'on' at that moment.  It was his choice to play safe, or go for it.

1 - he misses - everybody calls him a 'choker'.  mockery and abuse abound.

2 - he lands close and birdies.  what great confidence and balls!  exciting finish

gutsy choice - didn't pay off this time, I wonder what tied for 8th brings in for a 4 day paycheck?  Poor guy will have to eat dog food for a few days to recover from his financial woes....

clearly he has an aggressive risk/reward attitude - I like to see a bit of chance taking.....I appreciate players trying.....golf holes are DESIGNED to give big rewards/penalties for high risk shots vs playing the 'safe' options.

a couple problems:

1 - he missed the attempt and then let it hurt his composure enough that he hit the water two more times afterwards.  A bit more composure, and he still recovers with only 2 over on the last 2 holes, not 6 over.  nicer finish, appears to be a gutsy professional that can handle a set back instead of 'meltdown guy'

2 - he really did seem to whine a bit (or that's how all the press on the topic is portraying him).  that really offsets the ballsy attempt.  the better interview would have been "I saw a risky chance to win the tourny outright - my hitting was great to that point and I took the risk.  I accept that, THIS TIME, I didn't pull off the big shot.  But that's part of the game and was an exciting shot at the time."

the talking heads are all such 'take the safe route' types, that's it's a bit tedious.  I don't really need to hear them talk at all, I already know what they'll say.  It's always easy to take/advocate the conservative approach, safe.....easy......boring.  20/20 hindsight commentary is worthless....How excited were the announcers when they saw him setting up at the flag????  that's what the audience wants to see

thrilled to see Tiger get a great season going.  thrilled to see Rory back in the mix.

I've recorded the last round - can't wait to watch it all.

(IMO - When I see Sergio, I automatically think "he looks real grumpy".  I don't know why, But not a fan.  I'm disturbed that little things like this affect my outlook instead just watching the players' skills)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonicblue

Oh Jesus H Christ on a popsicle stick...  Before "the fire hydrant," Tiger was well known as one of the most knowledgeable guys on Tour regarding the rules.  Now every half-cocked judgmental asshat wants to frame every single thing he does as dishonest, cheating, deceptive, etc...  No rules official saw it, they don't have "aerial instant replay" available for the players.  His playing partner AND his playing partner's caddie agreed on the drop.  It's not like Tiger had free reign to do whatever he wanted.

Now that is good!

+100

Quote:
Originally Posted by rehmwa

Meh.  It's "GOLF" no one 'needs' to do anything....- He was having a good day, feeling the shots, feeling 'on' at that moment.  It was his choice to play safe, or go for it.

1 - he misses - everybody calls him a 'choker'.  mockery and abuse abound.

2 - he lands close and birdies.  what great confidence and balls!  exciting finish

gutsy choice - didn't pay off this time, I wonder what tied for 8th brings in for a 4 day paycheck?  Poor guy will have to eat dog food for a few days to recover from his financial woes....

clearly he has an aggressive risk/reward attitude - I like to see a bit of chance taking.....I appreciate players trying.....golf holes are DESIGNED to give big rewards/penalties for high risk shots vs playing the 'safe' options.

a couple problems:

1 - he missed the attempt and then let it hurt his composure enough that he hit the water two more times afterwards.  A bit more composure, and he still recovers with only 2 over on the last 2 holes, not 6 over.  nicer finish, appears to be a gutsy professional that can handle a set back instead of 'meltdown guy'

2 - he really did seem to whine a bit (or that's how all the press on the topic is portraying him).  that really offsets the ballsy attempt.  the better interview would have been "I saw a risky chance to win the tourny outright - my hitting was great to that point and I took the risk.  I accept that, THIS TIME, I didn't pull off the big shot.  But that's part of the game and was an exciting shot at the time."

the talking heads are all such 'take the safe route' types, that's it's a bit tedious.  I don't really need to hear them talk at all, I already know what they'll say.  It's always easy to take/advocate the conservative approach, safe.....easy......boring.  20/20 hindsight commentary is worthless....How excited were the announcers when they saw him setting up at the flag????  that's what the audience wants to see

thrilled to see Tiger get a great season going.  thrilled to see Rory back in the mix.

I've recorded the last round - can't wait to watch it all.

(IMO - When I see Sergio, I automatically think "he looks real grumpy".  I don't know why, But not a fan.  I'm disturbed that little things like this affect my outlook instead just watching the players' skills)

You make a lot of good points but I don't completely agree with this one. Some golf holes are designed with a risk/reward element. The interest in 17 at TPC Sawgrass is that the green is surrounded by water not that there is a risk for going for the pin. That particular pin is risky no doubt but it's not a good idea to aim for such a small target when there is wind and there are smarter options. Especially in Sergio's scenario yesterday. Par was a good score yesterday and birdie an option only by holing a longer putt. Frankly it was a foolish shot in that situation to aim at that pin. Garcia showed a serious lack of patience and judgement and it cost him. Better to par 17 and hope for birdie at 18 or at worst a playoff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamo

This isn't a case of hindsight being 20-20. That was the wrong play in that situation.

I agree that this isn't a case of hindsight.  Before Sergio took his swing I asked my TV, "what is he doing?!?"  This is how it went down:

I saw him align at the right side of the tee box.  I thought to myself, "okay good.  He's going to aim for the center of the green and play for a slight cut...that's why he's aligned on the right side of the tee box."  Then I see his head/shoulder position and where he's looking, and I thought, "oh no, wtf is he doing?"

It should also be noted that people are assuming that if he lands it on the green it's a birdie, which isn't the case.  The risk was very high for a reward that isn't promised.  Look at Lingmerth.  Did he birdie?  No, and he had a very small margin for error.  And he still gave himself a chance on 18 to get into a playoff.  Sergio would have had 18 to go for the win if he wanted.

Anyway, I don't care if people call it a choke or not.  I was fairly certain it was a choke, considering he landed it 10+ yards short of his target, but if people don't want to call it that, no bother.  I'd just like to point out that if you're calling it gutsy, you're talking about the decision.  When people call it a choke-job, they're talking about the execution.  Realistically, it can be both.
He was tied for the lead, two pars would've at least given him a playoff. At the time, his choice seemed foolish to me. If he was one or two shots back, sure, he's got to do something, but that was not the case. The reward of a birdie is of course huge, but that flag is such a big risk to go for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rehmwa

1 - he misses - everybody calls him a 'choker'.  mockery and abuse abound.
2 - he lands close and birdies.  what great confidence and balls!  exciting finish

Sure, but you can say that about any shot. The problem is twofold: (1) the benefit of making birdie wasn't huge because he was already tied for the lead and the 18th is very birdie-able, while the punishment for bogey or worse is huge, and (2) the chances that he pulls off the perfect shot to a pin guarded by water on three sides is fairly small, while the chances of making par (and still even giving himself a chance at birdie; Rory McIlroy played that shot to perfection about an hour earlier) by playing to the middle of the green is huge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rehmwa

gutsy choice - didn't pay off this time, I wonder what tied for 8th brings in for a 4 day paycheck?  Poor guy will have to eat dog food for a few days to recover from his financial woes....

clearly he has an aggressive risk/reward attitude - I like to see a bit of chance taking.....I appreciate players trying.....golf holes are DESIGNED to give big rewards/penalties for high risk shots vs playing the 'safe' options.

"Gutsy" is just another word for stupid here.

To be fair, I could say most of the same things about Tiger's approach shot into 18. He just happened to pull it off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamo

(2) the chances that he pulls off the perfect shot to a pin guarded by water on three sides is fairly small

Agreed

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamo

To be fair, I could say most of the same things about Tiger's approach shot into 18. He just happened to pull it off.

Yeah, kind of surprising that he went right over the flag there (and you know that's what he intended because of how he walked it down) when anything on the green at all (and even the fringe) at the correct distance was feeding down to the hole, and taking the water out of play.

Quote:

Yeah, kind of surprising that he went right over the flag there (and you know that's what he intended because of how he walked it down) when anything on the green at all (and even the fringe) at the correct distance was feeding down to the hole, and taking the water out of play.

Yup.  It was a nearly perfect shot.  However, say it draws one more yard and takes a big hop...could be a different result.  So he was clutch in the execution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeph

He was tied for the lead, two pars would've at least given him a playoff. At the time, his choice seemed foolish to me. If he was one or two shots back, sure, he's got to do something, but that was not the case. The reward of a birdie is of course huge, but that flag is such a big risk to go for.

I was happy to finally see a player go at that flag. Lingmerth did the same thing, didn't he?  Sergio was going after the knock-out punch. Props to him. Everything he did afterwards (quad, double bogey) was meaningless since he was no longer going to win it. \$31 mil on the career money list doesn't care about the difference in pay between 2nd and 7th place, does he?

If someone in here has a better view from their couch than Tiger and Casey had from the tee, why not grow some stones and call it in? Leave your name and tell them what you saw. Be a man. Get him penalized.

No?

Suddenly your view may not have been so good?

Then shut yer pie hole.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Martin

I was happy to finally see a player go at that flag. Lingmerth did the same thing, didn't he?

Main difference being that Lingmerth was behind by a stroke.  Even then I'd probably play to the middle and try and make a birdie putt and if not then take my chances on 18, but I can't blame him for going after it on 17.

Quote:
Originally Posted by minitour

If someone in here has a better view from their couch than Tiger and Casey had from the tee, why not grow some stones and call it in? Leave your name and tell them what you saw. Be a man. Get him penalized.

I guarantee they fielded a ton of calls from folks trying to get him penalized for that drop.  I'd be curious to know just how many.  I'd also like to listen in on some of them, as I'm sure they were quite funny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by minitour

If someone in here has a better view from their couch than Tiger and Casey had from the tee, why not grow some stones and call it in? Leave your name and tell them what you saw. Be a man. Get him penalized.

No?

Suddenly your view may not have been so good?

Then shut yer pie hole.

well, it IS a little late, isn't it? Afterall, everyone playing in the event is practically gone at Sawgrass, headed to the next PGA event.

anyone see Henrik hit off the bridge on 4? heard today on talk radio that since he was on the bridge he didn't get relief as they said on the TV broadcast - something about being part of the hazard and not treated like a cart path type of drop.....

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