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Yet another wasted golf lesson - Page 2

post #19 of 70

My goodness, I WISH my future students would send me an email and swing videos before I see them. I'd get to slow the video down and really study it, and put together a tentative prognosis before he even got there. How could you ignore a cheat sheet like that?

post #20 of 70
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by virtuoso View Post

My goodness, I WISH my future students would send me an email and swing videos before I see them. I'd get to slow the video down and really study it, and put together a tentative prognosis before he even got there. How could you ignore a cheat sheet like that?

 

see, i'm not crazy... 

 

thanks!

post #21 of 70
Quote:
I don't consider reading an email and spending 16 seconds looking at a swing video "prep work". His website invites guests to send him correspondence so I wasn't making an inappropriate assumption by sending him an email. 

 

 

Quote:
I have to disagree with you regarding this statement. While I don't necessarily think the instructor had to look at the videos atleast reading the e-mail description of what the OP is looking to accomplish and a bit of his background should have been expected. I mean how is reading that e-mail different then talking with someone before they get the lesson. It give the instructor and idea of where the client is so they can have a plan of attack going on.

 

I might be biased here because I charge my clients by the hour, and I hear this all the time.  "But its just an email!" or "Its just a call!".  What you have to realize is that this guy probably does 5-7 lessons per day of the week to work a full day.  Thats 25-35 students per week.  Say half are not repeat clients.  Its easy to say "its just an email thats not unreasonable" but if every student sends an email that can be hours and hours of time.  My client say the same thing but you have to realize you are not his only student.  If he reads your for free, he has to read everyone's for free.  There simply isn't enough time.  I know its tough to put yourself in his shoes but you arn't special.  He isn't going to do it or he is going to charge you for it.  Thats how it works when you agree to pay someone by the hour.  Now, if you had been a client of his for a few months or something thats different.  But expecting him to go above and beyond because you bought a $29 groupon is naive.  Maybe I'm the only one here who feels that way, but I think its totally reasonable for him to not respond to those types of emails - if he did, he'd have to do it for everyone, and that would be a whole lot of unpaid work/time.  If I had a nickel for everyone who said "i know i'm not your client yet, but can you take a look at this real quick for free?", i'd have alot of nickels.  Thats basically what you are asking him to do, which *is* unreasonable IMO with no retainer or prior relationship.

 

 

Quote:
I've worked as a coach before, both as a volunteer and as a paid assistant (different sport). I have also been coached by many different instructors spanning several disciplines over the years. The good ones have certain qualities in common, namely an evident excitement for teaching their craft, and an enthusiasm for students who demonstrate a similar passion to learn the craft. This guy demonstrated neither, and my disappointment was a compounding one based on previous experiences with PGA certified pros. 

 

Right, but don't you see that is entirely subjective?

 

You said: "I don't like this guy because of XYZ."

I said: "Teachers and if you like/fit with them is totally subjective"

You said: "No, you don't understand.  I like a teacher with enthusiasm, and he didn't have any!"

 

I get it.  You wanted him to care as much about your game as you do and he didn't.  You got turned off by that.  There are books written on how to be a good teacher.  There is no consensus on what is or is not a good teacher.  You have to try until you find a fit.  You could just as easily have been on here saying he was too excitable, gave you too much to work on, and made you uncomfortable because he watched you too closely.  Plenty have said that on these boards.  Its subjective.  You wanting a teacher with a certain level of enthusiasm for your game does not equal this guy being a "bad" pro.

 

You also are expecting him to go the extra mile when you paid him a bargain-basement price based on a one-time only special Groupon offer.  You want him to read your emails for free, get really excited about your game, but you want to pay him a fraction of his normal rate.  Its unrealistic.

post #22 of 70

Wow, are there really a lot of complaints on these boards about teachers watching students too closely?

 

If so, I'd better tone down my act. When I make mistakes, it's definitely from being too excitable, and giving students too much to work on, and watching them too closely. I can sometimes be a squirell on meth, and I take it personally when I can't get one of my students hitting the ball better.

 

One thing that strikes me: if the instructor is offering groupon deals, I doubt he is working with 30 students a week. When you are working with 30 students a week, you raise your rates. You don't coupon your slots away.

post #23 of 70
Quote:
If so, I'd better tone down my act. When I make mistakes, it's definitely from being too excitable, and giving students too much to work on, and watching them too closely. I can sometimes be a squirell on meth, and I take it personally when I can't get one of my students hitting the ball better.

 

 There is no one-size-fits all approach.  Which is my entire point.  Some players like a teacher who is very aloof and calm.  My teacher is not enthusiastic about my game.  He doesn't email me during off hours.  He doesn't take special interest in me.  What he does have, though, is a TrackMan and is religious about using it to fix swings.  Thats what I responded to and care about.  I could care less if he answers emails or shows particular interest in me.  Thats my point though - the OP seems like TrackMan isn't a must-have for him, but enthusiasm is a must-have, which is fine.  I'd rather have an unenthusiastic jerk who has a trackman and knows how to use it than a great, enthusiastic guy with no trackman.  Its all different.

 

EDIT: I'm not saying the OP is right or wrong.  I'm saying that there is no universal standard for what a good golf pro looks/acts like.

 

Quote:
One thing that strikes me: if the instructor is offering groupon deals, I doubt he is working with 30 students a week. When you are working with 30 students a week, you raise your rates. You don't coupon your slots away.

 

After you have been a teacher for five years, and have spent hundreds of unpaid hours responding to emails for free, from students 90% of which you never see again, come back and tell us how eager you are to go the extra mile.  The guy paid him $29 and wants the pro to respond to emails, watch videos, and really get into his golf game? *rolls eyes*

post #24 of 70
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnclayton1982 View Post

 

 

 

I might be biased here because I charge my clients by the hour, and I hear this all the time.  "But its just an email!" or "Its just a call!".  What you have to realize is that this guy probably does 5-7 lessons per day of the week to work a full day.  Thats 25-35 students per week.  Say half are not repeat clients.  Its easy to say "its just an email thats not unreasonable" but if every student sends an email that can be hours and hours of time.  My client say the same thing but you have to realize you are not his only student.  If he reads your for free, he has to read everyone's for free.  There simply isn't enough time.  I know its tough to put yourself in his shoes but you arn't special.  He isn't going to do it or he is going to charge you for it.  Thats how it works when you agree to pay someone by the hour.  Now, if you had been a client of his for a few months or something thats different.  But expecting him to go above and beyond because you bought a $29 groupon is naive.  Maybe I'm the only one here who feels that way, but I think its totally reasonable for him to not respond to those types of emails - if he did, he'd have to do it for everyone, and that would be a whole lot of unpaid work/time.  If I had a nickel for everyone who said "i know i'm not your client yet, but can you take a look at this real quick for free?", i'd have alot of nickels.  Thats basically what you are asking him to do, which *is* unreasonable IMO with no retainer or prior relationship.

 

 

 

Right, but don't you see that is entirely subjective?

 

You said: "I don't like this guy because of XYZ."

I said: "Teachers and if you like/fit with them is totally subjective"

You said: "No, you don't understand.  I like a teacher with enthusiasm, and he didn't have any!"

 

I get it.  You wanted him to care as much about your game as you do and he didn't.  You got turned off by that.  There are books written on how to be a good teacher.  There is no consensus on what is or is not a good teacher.  You have to try until you find a fit.  You could just as easily have been on here saying he was too excitable, gave you too much to work on, and made you uncomfortable because he watched you too closely.  Plenty have said that on these boards.  Its subjective.  You wanting a teacher with a certain level of enthusiasm for your game does not equal this guy being a "bad" pro.

 

You also are expecting him to go the extra mile when you paid him a bargain-basement price based on a one-time only special Groupon offer.  You want him to read your emails for free, get really excited about your game, but you want to pay him a fraction of his normal rate.  Its unrealistic.

 

 

Thank you for your contribution to this thread

post #25 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnclayton1982 View Post

 

 

After you have been a teacher for five years, and have spent hundreds of unpaid hours responding to emails for free, from students 90% of which you never see again, come back and tell us how eager you are to go the extra mile.  The guy paid him $29 and wants the pro to respond to emails, watch videos, and really get into his golf game? *rolls eyes*

 

 

John, come on dude! "Hundreds of unpaid hours responding to emails from students 90% of which you will never see again." ??

 

That just never happens. Students don't send emails if they don't plan to see you again.

 

And remember, the $29 rate was the pro's idea, not the op.

post #26 of 70
Quote:
 Students don't send emails if they don't plan to see you again.

 

The OP sent an email, and it doesn't seem like he is going to see him again.

 

And yes, I think hundreds of hours in five years is pretty realistic.  I get emails constantly from people saying "I haven't paid you anything, but I have legal issue X and Y, what do you think".  If I responded to those with anything but a form letter, it would easily be hundreds of hours in five years.

 

 

 

Quote:
And remember, the $29 rate was the pro's idea, not the op.

 

Right, he paid $29 for an hour lesson.  Which is what he got.  What I'm saying is that he didn't pay for an hour lesson, ten minutes of emailing, watching a video etc... etc...

post #27 of 70
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnclayton1982 View Post

 

The OP sent an email, and it doesn't seem like he is going to see him again.

 

And yes, I think hundreds of hours in five years is pretty realistic.  I get emails constantly from people saying "I haven't paid you anything, but I have legal issue X and Y, what do you think".  If I responded to those with anything but a form letter, it would easily be hundreds of hours in five years.

 

 

 

 

Right, he paid $29 for an hour lesson.  Which is what he got.  What I'm saying is that he didn't pay for an hour lesson, ten minutes of emailing, watching a video etc... etc...

 

if that's so unrealistic, then perhaps he should take that feature off of his website a2_wink.gif

post #28 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnclayton1982 View Post

 

The OP sent an email, and it doesn't seem like he is going to see him again.

 

And yes, I think hundreds of hours in five years is pretty realistic.  I get emails constantly from people saying "I haven't paid you anything, but I have legal issue X and Y, what do you think".  If I responded to those with anything but a form letter, it would easily be hundreds of hours in five years.

 

 

 

 

Right, he paid $29 for an hour lesson.  Which is what he got.  What I'm saying is that he didn't pay for an hour lesson, ten minutes of emailing, watching a video etc... etc...

I don't think it's fair for somebody to offer a deal, and then tailor their service to that deal, do you?  Certainly the coupon said something like $29 for an hour lesson ($80 value) ... which clearly infers that YOU ARE paying for an hour lesson.

 

That would be like going to the mall to get a shirt that's on sale but then finding out that they ripped off the buttons because you didn't pay full price.  WTF??

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by divot dave View Post

if that's so unrealistic, then perhaps he should take that feature off of his website a2_wink.gif

I agree with you on this Dave.  Even if the deal was - as you eluded to in the OP - probably just to get you in the door to try and sell you more lessons, the least he could have done is to try and take it serious.  He didn't have to watch your video or respond to your email beforehand, he should have at least used the information to know that you were taking the lesson serious, therefore somebody who could very well become a repeat customer.

 

I did the same thing last spring before I started on Evolvr ... my wife bought me a lesson through Groupon (may have been Living Social, but regardless, same premise) and it was very similar to yours, except the guy was cool about it.  It was clearly meant to be more of a "swing evaluation" and a sales pitch towards a package of more lessons ... however, at least my guy genuinely seemed enthusiastic about the lesson.  (As it turns out, he had outdated info that I now know is not great, but he was at least trying)

post #29 of 70
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

I don't think it's fair for somebody to offer a deal, and then tailor their service to that deal, do you?  Certainly the coupon said something like $29 for an hour lesson ($80 value) ... which clearly infers that YOU ARE paying for an hour lesson.

 

That would be like going to the mall to get a shirt that's on sale but then finding out that they ripped off the buttons because you didn't pay full price.  WTF??

 

I agree with you on this Dave.  Even if the deal was - as you eluded to in the OP - probably just to get you in the door to try and sell you more lessons, the least he could have done is to try and take it serious.  He didn't have to watch your video or respond to your email beforehand, he should have at least used the information to know that you were taking the lesson serious, therefore somebody who could very well become a repeat customer.

 

I did the same thing last spring before I started on Evolvr ... my wife bought me a lesson through Groupon (may have been Living Social, but regardless, same premise) and it was very similar to yours, except the guy was cool about it.  It was clearly meant to be more of a "swing evaluation" and a sales pitch towards a package of more lessons ... however, at least my guy genuinely seemed enthusiastic about the lesson.  (As it turns out, he had outdated info that I now know is not great, but he was at least trying)

 

lol, well said

post #30 of 70
Quote:
I don't think it's fair for somebody to offer a deal, and then tailor their service to that deal, do you?  Certainly the coupon said something like $29 for an hour lesson ($80 value) ... which clearly infers that YOU ARE paying for an hour lesson.

 

 

Quote:
lol, well said

 

 

Quote:
That would be like going to the mall to get a shirt that's on sale but then finding out that they ripped off the buttons because you didn't pay full price.  WTF??

 

How is it like that at all? Did he cut the lessons short at 50 minutes? It seems like you're complaining because you bought an hour lesson and didn't get more than that.

post #31 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnclayton1982 View Post

 

 

 

I might be biased here because I charge my clients by the hour, and I hear this all the time.  "But its just an email!" or "Its just a call!".  What you have to realize is that this guy probably does 5-7 lessons per day of the week to work a full day.  Thats 25-35 students per week.  Say half are not repeat clients.  Its easy to say "its just an email thats not unreasonable" but if every student sends an email that can be hours and hours of time.  My client say the same thing but you have to realize you are not his only student.  If he reads your for free, he has to read everyone's for free.  There simply isn't enough time.  I know its tough to put yourself in his shoes but you arn't special.  He isn't going to do it or he is going to charge you for it.  Thats how it works when you agree to pay someone by the hour.  Now, if you had been a client of his for a few months or something thats different.  But expecting him to go above and beyond because you bought a $29 groupon is naive.  Maybe I'm the only one here who feels that way, but I think its totally reasonable for him to not respond to those types of emails - if he did, he'd have to do it for everyone, and that would be a whole lot of unpaid work/time.  If I had a nickel for everyone who said "i know i'm not your client yet, but can you take a look at this real quick for free?", i'd have alot of nickels.  Thats basically what you are asking him to do, which *is* unreasonable IMO with no retainer or prior relationship.

 

 

I get it.  You wanted him to care as much about your game as you do and he didn't.  You got turned off by that.  There are books written on how to be a good teacher.  There is no consensus on what is or is not a good teacher.  You have to try until you find a fit.  You could just as easily have been on here saying he was too excitable, gave you too much to work on, and made you uncomfortable because he watched you too closely.  Plenty have said that on these boards.  Its subjective.  You wanting a teacher with a certain level of enthusiasm for your game does not equal this guy being a "bad" pro.

 

You also are expecting him to go the extra mile when you paid him a bargain-basement price based on a one-time only special Groupon offer.  You want him to read your emails for free, get really excited about your game, but you want to pay him a fraction of his normal rate.  Its unrealistic.

Okay, so then you never call your doctor and just ask him to write you a prescription without an office visit or call your mechanic or handyman to run some question by them.  If you compensate every you deal with on a professional level then you are definitely in the minority.

 

I would consider the instructor reading the e-mail and watching the video as getting himself prepared for the lesson, it would take 5 - 10 minutes.  If the guy doesn't show up, he doesn't benefit from the instructors observations. 

post #32 of 70

Ok John, let me ask you this.

 

Lets say you normally charge $250 per hour for legal advice, but you decide to offer a one time special for a 1 hour meeting for $100. Someone signs up for the one hour meeting and they send you a couple emails giving you some background on their legal issue.

 

Do you read the emails before the meeting or do you ignore them and just wait until the meeting to let them describe the situation in person? I'm not trying to trap you, I'm just asking.

post #33 of 70

I would read them.  I certainly wouldn't reply to them (which was the OP's original complaint, no reply).  And if someone bought one hour of legal time, sent me a video that would require analysis and attendant emails wanting a response, then took to the internet to complain because I "only" spent the one hour they purchased then yes, I'd feel exactly the same.

 

Its easy to say "its only 5-10 minutes".  And if it was just the OP, that would be reasonable.  But it isn't.  Everyone does this and says 'its just an email" and "its just 5 minutes".  Do enough five minute favors and you start talking about real time.

 

Sorry if my defense comes off too strong, but I hear this 4-5 times a week (its just an email, i know i only paid for an hour but c'mon, etc....) and people who for flat rates or salary or another compensation structure don't know how easy it is to waste your whole day/week on freebies, and how annoying it is to hear complaints when someone buys an hour you should give them an hour and fifteen minutes because its "just fifteen minutes".

 

We don't have inventory.  Our inventory is our time.  I see nothing different in the OP complaints here and someone posting that they're pissed Edwin Watts didn't throw a 4 iron in when they bought 5-PW because, hey, its just one club man!  Everyone would see that as ridiculous.  People who charge by the hour see their time as inventory (or they will go broke).

 

Now if this pro charges some huge, above-market rate for lessons, maybe you could see him having to go the extra mile in terms of customer service.  If the OP had been a student of the pro for a while and had spent alot of money with him, I could see it being reasonable to ask for a little extra.  But it was a $29 groupon.  Give me a break.

post #34 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnclayton1982 View Post

 

We don't have inventory.  Our inventory is our time.  I see nothing different in the OP complaints here and someone posting that they're pissed Edwin Watts didn't throw a 4 iron in when they bought 5-PW because, hey, its just one club man!  Everyone would see that as ridiculous.  People who charge by the hour see their time as inventory (or they will go broke).

 

 

 

Now that was a sweet comeback. It was like a pure 2 iron with a high baby draw.

 

Ok, I understand your points, and I'm certainly on board with the concept that time is a critical feature of your product.

 

I think I'm coming from the angle that I would look at the videos because I'm curious and want to be more prepared to provide an expert service. And, I'd just be naturally curious. I'd be like,"Hmmm, lets see what kind of action this guy's got. Let's see what I'm in store for."

post #35 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by virtuoso View Post

 

Now that was a sweet comeback. It was like a pure 2 iron with a high baby draw.

 

Ok, I understand your points, and I'm certainly on board with the concept that time is a critical feature of your product.

 

I think I'm coming from the angle that I would look at the videos because I'm curious and want to be more prepared to provide an expert service. And, I'd just be naturally curious. I'd be like,"Hmmm, lets see what kind of action this guy's got. Let's see what I'm in store for."

You might feel differently if you had 50 or more of them piling up from various clients and potential clients. I think that is johnnyclayton's point, it isn't just one.

post #36 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnclayton1982 View Post

Right, he paid $29 for an hour lesson.  Which is what he got.  What I'm saying is that he didn't pay for an hour lesson, ten minutes of emailing, watching a video etc... etc...

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

That would be like going to the mall to get a shirt that's on sale but then finding out that they ripped off the buttons because you didn't pay full price.  WTF??

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnclayton1982 View Post

How is it like that at all? Did he cut the lessons short at 50 minutes? It seems like you're complaining because you bought an hour lesson and didn't get more than that.

Whoops ... I mis-read your original comment.  Actually, more specifically, I think I am guilty of reading the first part of your post, sensing a general disagreement with Dave's OP, then getting to the part I quoted and reading it as ...

 

Quote:

Right, he paid $29 for a lesson. Which is what he got. What I'm saying is that he didn't pay for an hour lesson

 

The getting all excited to respond and forgetting to finish and read more carefully.  Sorry about that.d2_doh.gif

 

You disagree with Dave thinking he deserved more than the hour lesson, and that's fine.  But it sounds like he didn't even get the hour lesson, and that is not fine. :)

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