Jump to content
IGNORED

To broom or not to broom?


joekelly
Note: This thread is 4000 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

They hallowtined the greens last week and applied fine sand over the top. Now it’s like walking on the beach with deep sandy footprints everywhere. The rules indicate permission to brush away sand from the line of putt.  May I carry a small broom to sweep the sand from my line of putt? To me, this action would be  permitted but also would be a discouraged and questionable practice.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


Originally Posted by Rulesman

If the result is to make a channel from the ball to the hole, there could be a breach of rule 1-2.

IMHO.

I think the ruling would fall under R16-1a (i)  See first exception under R1-2.   As the removal of sand is allowed, I don't think the player should be penalized if the sand is so deep it makes a "channel".  If he presses anything down, that's a different matter, however.  Hard to say without being there, but I think using a broom could cause a breach.

To the OP's question if everyone in your group said it was ok and were also doing it, I wouldn't worry about it.  I doubt you would have a competition  with the greens like this.

Regards,

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rulesman

If the result is to make a channel from the ball to the hole, there could be a breach of rule 1-2.

IMHO.

I think the ruling would fall under R16-1a (i)  See first exception under R1-2.   As the removal of sand is allowed, I don't think the player should be penalized if the sand is so deep it makes a "channel".  If he presses anything down, that's a different matter, however.  Hard to say without being there, but I think using a broom could cause a breach.

To the OP's question if everyone in your group said it was ok and were also doing it, I wouldn't worry about it.  I doubt you would have a competition  with the greens like this.

If what he does influences the movement of the ball as in Rulesman's example, then it would be flirting with 1-2.  He would have to clear the area in such a way that the ball doesn't carom off the sand banks to follow a path.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

From the thread title I was expecting a long putter debate...

Yours in earnest, Jason.
Call me Ernest, or EJ or Ernie.

PSA - "If you find yourself in a hole, STOP DIGGING!"

My Whackin' Sticks: :cleveland: 330cc 2003 Launcher 10.5*  :tmade: RBZ HL 3w  :nickent: 3DX DC 3H, 3DX RC 4H  :callaway: X-22 5-AW  :nike:SV tour 56* SW :mizuno: MP-T11 60* LW :bridgestone: customized TD-03 putter :tmade:Penta TP3   :aimpoint:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

IMHO.

I think the ruling would fall under R16-1a (i)  See first exception under R1-2.   As the removal of sand is allowed, I don't think the player should be penalized if the sand is so deep it makes a "channel".  If he presses anything down, that's a different matter, however.  Hard to say without being there, but I think using a broom could cause a breach.

To the OP's question if everyone in your group said it was ok and were also doing it, I wouldn't worry about it.  I doubt you would have a competition  with the greens like this.

I can't find it now but I believe that some years ago the RBs ruled that clearing a path to guide the ball through a covering of light snow would be a breach of 1-2.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Originally Posted by Fourputt

If what he does influences the movement of the ball as in Rulesman's example, then it would be flirting with 1-2.  He would have to clear the area in such a way that the ball doesn't carom off the sand banks to follow a path.

Why?  Here's my thinking.  First I would argue that the removing of sand on greens, ("the action") is identified and allowed under the  Definition of Loose Impediments, R23 and R16-1a.

I think the 1st exception under R1-2 tells us the above rules are therefore applicable, not R1-2.

So looking at R23 and R16-1a , is there anything the player is doing that is a breach?  What I think would be a breach is if the player improved his line of putt by doing anything OTHER than the removing of loose impediments.  There are a number of decisions under R16-1 that deal with this. D16-1a/9, for example.  If removing the sand improved his line of putt by pushing grass down, then I think there would be a penalty.  But the applicable penalty in this case would be under R16-1a not R1-2.

The fact that the player has a "trench" because he removed loose impediments is irrelevant in my view.  Look at it another way.  The green is covered by leaves or gravel and the player removed same creating a path.  The ball could very well be influenced by the loose impediments on each side of the path he created, but under what rule would that be a breach if something influenced his ball?  What did the player do that was against the rules?

I guess, although I agree the player brushing a path in the sand is influencing the movement of his ball, I'm having a problem making it a breach under R1-2.  There are things allowed under the rules that do influence the movement of the ball or alter physical conditions.

Again just my opinion.  Interesting discussion on R1-2, regardless.

Edit: Just saw Rulesman's post on snow.  If there is a specific ruling covering this, then obviously there would be a breach and I would agree.  R1-2 was recently re written, I'm wondering if the ruling still applies.

1-2 . Exerting Influence on Movement of Ball or Altering Physical Conditions

A player must not (i) take an action with the intent to influence the movement of a ball in play or (ii) alter physical conditions with the intent of affecting the playing of a hole.

Exceptions:

1. An action expressly permitted or expressly prohibited by another Rule is subject to that other Rule , not Rule 1-2 .

2. An action taken for the sole purpose of caring for the course is not a breach of Rule 1-2 .

Regards,

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Originally Posted by joekelly

May I carry a small broom to sweep the sand from my line of putt?

Decision 23-1/1 states that "loose impediments may be removed by any means, except that, in removing loose impediments on the line of putt, the player must not press anything down (Rule 16-1a )."

It appears a small broom would be allowed.  Of course, removing sand that was applied as part of maintenance runs contrary to the idea of taking care of the course.  Unless one were playing for a significant wager, it is probably best to just put up with the sand or not play for a week or so.

Brian Kuehn

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

1. An action expressly permitted or expressly prohibited by another Rule is subject to that other Rule, not Rule 1-2.

Despite the Note I am not persuaded that making a channel is expressly permitted.

This is not removing a disadvantage but gaining an advantage.

Note 1: A player is deemed to have committed a serious breach of Rule 1-2 if the Committee considers that the action taken in breach of this Rule has allowed him or another player to gain a significant advantage

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Could he not gain an advantage by the visual path he creates by sweeping aside the sand?

In David's bag....

Driver: Titleist 910 D-3;  9.5* Diamana Kai'li
3-Wood: Titleist 910F;  15* Diamana Kai'li
Hybrids: Titleist 910H 19* and 21* Diamana Kai'li
Irons: Titleist 695cb 5-Pw

Wedges: Scratch 51-11 TNC grind, Vokey SM-5's;  56-14 F grind and 60-11 K grind
Putter: Scotty Cameron Kombi S
Ball: ProV1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Originally Posted by Rulesman

Despite the Note I am not persuaded that making a channel is expressly permitted.

This is not removing a disadvantage but gaining an advantage.

Note 1: A player is deemed to have committed a serious breach of Rule 1-2 if the Committee considers that the action taken in breach of this Rule has allowed him or another player to gain a significant advantage

Hey Rulesman,

Referencing Note 1, So you would DQ the player.  Interesting.

Without seeing what the original poster was actually doing, I  think this is somewhat of an academic exercise.  If the sand were deep, and he purposely  made a  narrow path where it could be deemed that there was an intent to influence the ball towards the hole, then yes I think there is a breach of R1-2.  If he brushed a path, say  6-10 inches wide,  then I would say no penalty. Even if the edges of the path could deflect his ball back towards the hole , I'd be satisfied that this was not his intent.  As you know R1-2 requires purposeful intent, and the player does have the right to remove sand on the green.  For me anyway, I guess it comes down to the intent of the player and the specifics of what he actually did.

Regards,

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Originally Posted by David in FL

Could he not gain an advantage by the visual path he creates by sweeping aside the sand?

Hi David,

I suppose, but I don't think visual help is a breach of R1-2.  All the examples I've seen deal with physical alterations of the course, or doing something that physically influences the movement of the ball.

Regards,

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Got it. Thanks.

In David's bag....

Driver: Titleist 910 D-3;  9.5* Diamana Kai'li
3-Wood: Titleist 910F;  15* Diamana Kai'li
Hybrids: Titleist 910H 19* and 21* Diamana Kai'li
Irons: Titleist 695cb 5-Pw

Wedges: Scratch 51-11 TNC grind, Vokey SM-5's;  56-14 F grind and 60-11 K grind
Putter: Scotty Cameron Kombi S
Ball: ProV1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Note: This thread is 4000 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    TourStriker PlaneMate
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct: Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package.

    Coupon Codes (save 10-15%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope.
  • Posts

    • Tiger Woods, Rory McIlroy learn how much loyalty is worth in new PGA Tour equity program Players are receiving a portion of a nearly $1 billion equity share for staying loyal to the PGA Tour amid... I’ve seen several outlets posting this.
    • Day 4- Slow, short swings with short practice club. 
    • Day 119: 4/24/24 Chipping and pitching followed by putting through 50 mm gates.
    • @boogielicious and I are definitely in for the Stay & Play and will need the extra night's stay on Friday. I don't know what the plans are for our group on Friday but even if we don't make it for dinner with the rest of the Friday arrivals, I'll be more than happy to meet up somewhere for a beer or something.
    • Taking your dispersion and distance in consideration I analyzed the 4 posible ways to play the hole, or at least the ones that were listed here. I took the brown grass on the left as fescue were you need to punch out sideways to the fairway and rigth of the car path to be fescue too.  Driver "going for the green"  You have to aim more rigth, to the bunker in order to center your shotzone in between the fescue.  Wood of 240 over the bunkers I already like this one more for you. More room to land between the fescue. Balls in the fescue 11% down from 30% with driver. Improve of score from 4.55 to 4.40. 4 iron 210 yards besides the bunkers.    Also a wide area and your shot zone is better than previous ones. This makes almost the fescue dissapear. You really need to hit a bad one (sometimes shit happens). Because of that and only having 120 yards in this is the best choice so far. Down to 4.32 from 4.40. Finally the 6 Iron 180 yards to avoid all trouble.    Wide area an narrow dispersion for almost been in the fairway all the time. Similar than the previous one but 25 yards farther for the hole to avoid been in the bunkers. Average remains the same, 4.33 to 4.32.  Conclusion is easy. Either your 4iron or 6 iron of the tee are equaly good for you. Glad that you made par!
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...