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To broom or not to broom?

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 

They hallowtined the greens last week and applied fine sand over the top. Now it’s like walking on the beach with deep sandy footprints everywhere. The rules indicate permission to brush away sand from the line of putt.  May I carry a small broom to sweep the sand from my line of putt? To me, this action would be  permitted but also would be a discouraged and questionable practice. 

post #2 of 15

If the result is to make a channel from the ball to the hole, there could be a breach of rule 1-2.

post #3 of 15

I'd just deal with it for the next two weeks or so.  By June, you'll have forgotten all about this.

post #4 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rulesman View Post

If the result is to make a channel from the ball to the hole, there could be a breach of rule 1-2.

 

IMHO.

 

I think the ruling would fall under R16-1a (i)  See first exception under R1-2.   As the removal of sand is allowed, I don't think the player should be penalized if the sand is so deep it makes a "channel".  If he presses anything down, that's a different matter, however.  Hard to say without being there, but I think using a broom could cause a breach.

 

To the OP's question if everyone in your group said it was ok and were also doing it, I wouldn't worry about it.  I doubt you would have a competition  with the greens like this. 

post #5 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dormie1360 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rulesman View Post

If the result is to make a channel from the ball to the hole, there could be a breach of rule 1-2.

 

IMHO.

 

I think the ruling would fall under R16-1a (i)  See first exception under R1-2.   As the removal of sand is allowed, I don't think the player should be penalized if the sand is so deep it makes a "channel".  If he presses anything down, that's a different matter, however.  Hard to say without being there, but I think using a broom could cause a breach.

 

To the OP's question if everyone in your group said it was ok and were also doing it, I wouldn't worry about it.  I doubt you would have a competition  with the greens like this. 

 

If what he does influences the movement of the ball as in Rulesman's example, then it would be flirting with 1-2.  He would have to clear the area in such a way that the ball doesn't carom off the sand banks to follow a path.

post #6 of 15

From the thread title I was expecting a long putter debate...

post #7 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dormie1360 View Post

 

IMHO.

 

I think the ruling would fall under R16-1a (i)  See first exception under R1-2.   As the removal of sand is allowed, I don't think the player should be penalized if the sand is so deep it makes a "channel".  If he presses anything down, that's a different matter, however.  Hard to say without being there, but I think using a broom could cause a breach.

 

To the OP's question if everyone in your group said it was ok and were also doing it, I wouldn't worry about it.  I doubt you would have a competition  with the greens like this. 

 

I can't find it now but I believe that some years ago the RBs ruled that clearing a path to guide the ball through a covering of light snow would be a breach of 1-2. 

post #8 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

 

If what he does influences the movement of the ball as in Rulesman's example, then it would be flirting with 1-2.  He would have to clear the area in such a way that the ball doesn't carom off the sand banks to follow a path.

 

Why?  Here's my thinking.  First I would argue that the removing of sand on greens, ("the action") is identified and allowed under the  Definition of Loose Impediments, R23 and R16-1a. 

 

I think the 1st exception under R1-2 tells us the above rules are therefore applicable, not R1-2.

 

So looking at R23 and R16-1a , is there anything the player is doing that is a breach?  What I think would be a breach is if the player improved his line of putt by doing anything OTHER than the removing of loose impediments.  There are a number of decisions under R16-1 that deal with this. D16-1a/9, for example.  If removing the sand improved his line of putt by pushing grass down, then I think there would be a penalty.  But the applicable penalty in this case would be under R16-1a not R1-2.

 

The fact that the player has a "trench" because he removed loose impediments is irrelevant in my view.  Look at it another way.  The green is covered by leaves or gravel and the player removed same creating a path.  The ball could very well be influenced by the loose impediments on each side of the path he created, but under what rule would that be a breach if something influenced his ball?  What did the player do that was against the rules?

 

I guess, although I agree the player brushing a path in the sand is influencing the movement of his ball, I'm having a problem making it a breach under R1-2.  There are things allowed under the rules that do influence the movement of the ball or alter physical conditions.

 

Again just my opinion.  Interesting discussion on R1-2, regardless.

 

 

Edit:  Just saw Rulesman's post on snow.  If there is a specific ruling covering this, then obviously there would be a breach and I would agree.  R1-2 was recently re written, I'm wondering if the ruling still applies.

 

 

1-2. Exerting Influence on Movement of Ball or Altering Physical Conditions

 

A player must not (i) take an action with the intent to influence the movement of a ball in play or (ii) alter physical conditions with the intent of affecting the playing of a hole.

Exceptions:

 

1. An action expressly permitted or expressly prohibited by another Rule is subject to that other Rule, not Rule 1-2.

2. An action taken for the sole purpose of caring for the course is not a breach of Rule 1-2.

post #9 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by joekelly View Post

May I carry a small broom to sweep the sand from my line of putt?

Decision 23-1/1 states that "loose impediments may be removed by any means, except that, in removing loose impediments on the line of putt, the player must not press anything down (Rule 16-1a)."

 

It appears a small broom would be allowed.  Of course, removing sand that was applied as part of maintenance runs contrary to the idea of taking care of the course.  Unless one were playing for a significant wager, it is probably best to just put up with the sand or not play for a week or so.

post #10 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dormie1360 View Post

 

1. An action expressly permitted or expressly prohibited by another Rule is subject to that other Rule, not Rule 1-2.

 

Despite the Note I am not persuaded that making a channel is expressly permitted.

This is not removing a disadvantage but gaining an advantage.

 

 Note 1: A player is deemed to have committed a serious breach of Rule 1-2 if the Committee considers that the action taken in breach of this Rule has allowed him or another player to gain a significant advantage

post #11 of 15
Could he not gain an advantage by the visual path he creates by sweeping aside the sand?
post #12 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rulesman View Post

 

Despite the Note I am not persuaded that making a channel is expressly permitted.

This is not removing a disadvantage but gaining an advantage.

 

 Note 1: A player is deemed to have committed a serious breach of Rule 1-2 if the Committee considers that the action taken in breach of this Rule has allowed him or another player to gain a significant advantage

 

Hey Rulesman,

 

Referencing Note 1, So you would DQ the player.  Interesting.

 

Without seeing what the original poster was actually doing, I  think this is somewhat of an academic exercise.  If the sand were deep, and he purposely  made a  narrow path where it could be deemed that there was an intent to influence the ball towards the hole, then yes I think there is a breach of R1-2.  If he brushed a path, say  6-10 inches wide,  then I would say no penalty.  Even if the edges of the path could deflect his ball back towards the hole, I'd be satisfied that this was not his intent.  As you know R1-2 requires purposeful intent, and the player does have the right to remove sand on the green.  For me anyway, I guess it comes down to the intent of the player and the specifics of what he actually did.

post #13 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

Could he not gain an advantage by the visual path he creates by sweeping aside the sand?

 

Hi David,

 

I suppose, but I don't think visual help is a breach of R1-2.  All the examples I've seen deal with physical alterations of the course, or doing something that physically influences the movement of the ball. 


Edited by Dormie1360 - 5/12/13 at 9:32pm
post #14 of 15
Got it. Thanks.
post #15 of 15

Dormie

 

I would agree with both your last posts.

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