Why not have USGA rate course times not just difficulty?

As an offshoot to the "slow play" thread, where I argued without posted round times people can't be yelled at for slow play, I was wondering if people thought this was a good idea.

In addition to providing course rating and slope, why doesn't the USGA, as part of this "rating" effort, also rate the course for how fast 18 should be played by four adult male golfers from the men's tees?  All other times (9 hole, up tees, four kids, etc...) could be extrapolated from that.  You could then print the time on the scorecard just like the slope/rating.

I think this would drastically speed up play - once you give men something like a time limit, nobody wants to be slower than that (just like nobody wants to play from anything but the tips).

Thoughts on the USGA including this (target time to complete a round) as part of the rating system?

EDIT: You could then have the starter say stuff like "You should make the turn at XX:XX am/pm" and he would have some authority behind him (the USGA).

They do. It's called the Pace Rating System and it hasn't been a great success.

http://www.popeofslope.com/paceofplay/usgapace.html

Why isn't it posted like rating / slope at the club?

That makes no sense at all to rate it and then not publish the numbers on the scorecards.

It is posted on the cards at the courses I play, right below the local rules. A few courses go beyond that with signs and target flags to assist golfers to make smart shot choices as they navigate the course. A few practically insist drop areas are used and some flat out bend the rules when it comes to things like ESA. It actually works quite well if followed. I know because I once ignored the flags on that particular course with flags, thinking I could carry the obstacle and it resulted in a lost ball.

Like I mentioned in the other thread there's a course here with POP clocks on the tee boxes. The starter points out your starting time at the first hole. When you get to the next tee a big clock and a sign "you should be here at X time".

The problem is lack of enforcement, it falls on the course management. With courses struggling money is everything. Marshall's can suggest but they're not going to give anyone the boot. Many are volunteers working for free golf so they do nothing.

That's why my parents club is so efficient. The members control the course set up. They are aware of what type of golfer is there and how they play the course. Because the quality of golf is high the set up is difficult yet the members navigate the course quickly. I see it at public courses too. Typically the fastest playing courses are the mandatory riding courses. Because the space between greens and tee is vast it makes it tough to catch people in front of you. Their intervals between groups are set to maximize the course layout. A few have POP clocks on the cart, the cart communicates with the host via the GPS. It does everything from reminding you to repair ball marks to where you should be in your round. The carts are also fast.

Like this?

Ours list it as "time to par" with the intervals and have the policy with the recommended total time under the rules on the back. Kind of cool to see how it jumps around but usually averages about 16 minutes per hole for anything par 4+. They want you off the par 3's quick, usually 8-9 minutes per par 3. They want us done in 3:52, rated 70.6/134.

I think the clocks on the tees work best. It's in your face, no way to miss it.

Virtually every course I play has a posted pace of play, but not all enforce it.

Here is a scorecard from a course here in M.B.

The pace of play for each hole is printed right there on the scorecard.

I've played 20 or so courses here in Louisiana and I have *never* seen that.  Is that really common?

^ anything longer is

Maybe if it was more common, more people would play quickly?

I don't know. When the published pace of play target is 4:15+, I think it sends the wrong message. Played yesterday at a crowded resort course (my own damn fault, I know better) with a 4:15 pace of play explained to every group by the starter. We made the turn in 2:20 and mentioned the slow pace to the same starter. He said we were "only a little behind pace" and seemed pleased. We waited on EVERY stinkin' shot all day and finished in 4:35. It was an absolute slog. But only 20 minutes "off pace". I'm waiting to see someone with the guts to post a pace of play at 3:45.....

One course I play is 3:52 and it's a tough course. I've experienced the same issues with rangers saying we're not far behind when it's very slow. That course is slow as it is, published 4:45 POP, but all they list is the time, no clock, no per hole POP listed on the card. But it is difficult, lot's of ESA and funky, long uphill par 5's. I don't play there often but they don't need my dollar, always busy.

My course has pace of play on scorecard like the others posted (4:30), POP clocks on each tee, can send messages to GPS in cart when group is out of position, and has marshals that are active in POP issues.

Have been in two groups that were approached by marshals here regarding pace of play. In first case it was one guy causing issues and he though it was everyone except him and reacted really negatively to the marshal and didn't attempt to speed up at all. In fact when the three of us tried our best to speed up he took it as an opportunity to take even MORE time for himself.  In the second case our group had three bad holes in a row and fell out of position, no issues with marshal and we were back in position within two holes.

Anyway my point was that it is a rock and a hard place issue as it seems a lot of times the people causing the most issues think they are fast players and react especially negatively to marshal assistance/intervention.  Worst case I ever saw was by a guy who was a marshal himself and always lectured me on POP issues endlessly as he was a bit of a blow hard. Went to Myrtle with him and he couldn't handle the wet conditions or the tough bermuda rough. Course marshal came by and this guy told the marshal point blank that he would speed up when the course conditions were improved and until then they shouldn't expect anyone to speed up on this POS course ... nice.

Two reviews from golfers relative to course policy and enforcement. FWIW management expects groups to be in position with the group ahead, not three holes out of position but still on 4:30 pace.

Both golfer gave the course an overall rating of 1 out of 5.

Out of interest (used to live in MA and probably heading back in 2014), where do you play? Because I'll happily go out of my way to patronize courses that do grasp the nettle of slow play, even at the risk of reviews like that. Obviously it depends on the specific local golf market, but I sure want to believe that you ultimately win more repeat business with a reputation for reasonable round times than you lose by driving away the snails.

This sounds familiar, I've seen similar reactions. People feel like they have a right to play their own way it's the customer is always right thing. The bad reviews are silly. You know what the course staff expects. If you pay the fees you've agreed to it. I've had people get snarky with me after mentioning we need to pick it up. Gone as far as suggesting we skip a hole to get back behind the group in front. The quality of the golf I play is directly related to how frustrated I get. I'll walk off before enduring a round with someone causing problems.