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# What do you need to play par? - Page 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by France46

Maybe that is too obvious to warrant a thread, but lots of golfers seem more concerned about getting longer than getting better.

Yes, most golfers would lower their score by improving consistency, accuracy, course management and short game, and that is too obvious for a new thread.

I believe what the OP really wanted to say--based on subsequent posts--is that he's getting better really fast and thinks golf isn't so hard as it is made out to be.

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Bowling is really easy. For a 260 average all you have to do is start the ball on the target line with a consistent spin. Learn to pick up those 7 and 10 pin spares and you're there. You'll never end up with splits or a night where it just isn't there...

Geesh, these games are simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boil3rmak3r

Bowling is really easy. For a 260 average all you have to do is start the ball on the target line with a consistent spin. Learn to pick up those 7 and 10 pin spares and you're there. You'll never end up with splits or a night where it just isn't there...

Geesh, these games are simple.

Lol. And yet, less than 1% of all league bowlers in the U.S. carry an average of 260. Bowling is much easier than golf, but carrying a 260 average is very much like carrying a low single digit handicap in golf.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shorty

Not exaggerating at all.

I'm talking about a legitimate 18 handicapper, not someone who has the luxury of playing tees that make every par 4 reachable in 2 with a short iron and every par 5 reachable in 2. Or plays courses with several 300 yard par 4s. Or has a DIY handicap where they only count rounds they want to count. I'm talking about 9 holes of 3000 yards or less. Many is the time I have played at short courses and played with 15 to 20 handicappers who have played one nine 1 or two over par They can't sustain it for 18 holes, but because they are able to reach the greens in regulation and they hit the ball solidly it's a common story. If they played in some countries, their 18 handicap in Australia would be a comfortable 12. We should have the American system here, but we don't which is why our handicaps typically (and anecdotall) are usually about 8 shots higher than our American friends. Our handicaps are ONLY calculated in competition rounds. And EVERY round counts.

As to your major problem, it's merely a question of self deception. Even at this early stage of your golfing career you are making the error of not understanding that the errors you make on the course are EXACTLY the things that keep everyone's handicap 5 to 10 strokes higher than it could be if they NEVER HIT a really bad shot and suffered the consequences. You seem to think that shots into water, drives behind trees, duffed shots are anomolies, when in fact they are the very things that make virtually every round for virtually every golfer a story of "If I hadn't.......... I would have and should have and could have". Fact is you didn't. If that were the case, Tiger would have 40 majors, Norman would have won 10 and every PGA Tour player would have at least 2 victories.

Number one project for you is to get real. Count every shot and realise that the course is not the practice range where the memory of a bad shot can be erased after te next hit. In real golf, bad experiences on certain holes can keep ypu awake at night. The fear of the tee shot on 18 where you have ruined good scores in the past has nothing to do with what yoiu did in a range session. Never underestimate the imoprtance of the mental side of the game. If "shit happens" to the best players in the world, it happens to all of us, believe me. So when whoever it was 4 putted from 6 fet the other day on TV, don't think that if it's you doing the same you just say "I wouldn't normally do that". You did. It counts. Move on.

I could not agree more.  It's like someone that breaks 80 for the first time.  "Breaking 80" seems to me anyway to be seen as a major step in the improvement in one's golf game, however, depending on the circumstances, breaking 80 may not be that impressive at all.  First off, if you play a par 70 course then you have a much better chance then a par 72, obviously.  But there is also a HUGE difference between breaking 80 at the local muni that is a par 70 and less than 6k yards versus doing it at a country club or more prestigious course that is a par 72 and plays 6200 from the front tees!

Having an official handicap through the USGA or your state golf association and following the rules that go along with it really gives you a much better idea of how one golfs versus someone that has an unofficial handicap system where they only put in the scores that they want to and don't input the others.

The same thing goes for someone that is trying to card an even par round.  Just because someone shoots par in one round does not mean that they are even close to scratch.  They could be, but they also could have played an easy course that is not long and had a good day.  If that person shot par on a course that had only a 115 slope, I'm pretty sure that they would not be at even par on a course with a 135 slope (even though slope is only a measurement for how difficult the course is for a bogey golfer).

Either the OP will discover what the rest of you know (and I'm starting to learn) or he has natural abilities that most people don't.

It's embarrassing to admit that in the last year and a half there were times where I thought I'd figured it out. I actually thought "soon I'll be good enough to start looking for a new set of forged irons that will match my skill level". What a joke.

It took me a couple of cycles of "I've got it!" followed by "I will always suck at this #\$*^ing game!" to understand the reality of how hard it is to get good. Now I try not to get too high or too low about how the game is going because a change is just around the corner. When I see a near-scratch player posting on this site that he has lost his game, that says a lot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shorty

Number one project for you is to get real. Count every shot and realise that the course is not the practice range where the memory of a bad shot can be erased after te next hit. In real golf, bad experiences on certain holes can keep ypu awake at night. The fear of the tee shot on 18 where you have ruined good scores in the past has nothing to do with what yoiu did in a range session. Never underestimate the imoprtance of the mental side of the game. If "shit happens" to the best players in the world, it happens to all of us, believe me. So when whoever it was 4 putted from 6 fet the other day on TV, don't think that if it's you doing the same you just say "I wouldn't normally do that". You did. It counts. Move on.

This is a great post and not just for OP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjwestner

I could not agree more.  It's like someone that breaks 80 for the first time.  "Breaking 80" seems to me anyway to be seen as a major step in the improvement in one's golf game, however, depending on the circumstances, breaking 80 may not be that impressive at all.  First off, if you play a par 70 course then you have a much better chance then a par 72, obviously.  But there is also a HUGE difference between breaking 80 at the local muni that is a par 70 and less than 6k yards versus doing it at a country club or more prestigious course that is a par 72 and plays 6200 from the front tees!

Having an official handicap through the USGA or your state golf association and following the rules that go along with it really gives you a much better idea of how one golfs versus someone that has an unofficial handicap system where they only put in the scores that they want to and don't input the others.

The same thing goes for someone that is trying to card an even par round.  Just because someone shoots par in one round does not mean that they are even close to scratch.  They could be, but they also could have played an easy course that is not long and had a good day.  If that person shot par on a course that had only a 115 slope, I'm pretty sure that they would not be at even par on a course with a 135 slope (even though slope is only a measurement for how difficult the course is for a bogey golfer).

I understand your point, but from my perspective, (honestly) breaking 80 on an easy course is still an accomplishment. There are some very good golfers on this forum so it's easy to think it's the norm. I haven't been around a lot of golf, but from what I've seen out on the course, a very small percentage of the public comes close to carrying a below 20 handicap. Don't know what the stats are, but of all the folks I've watched taking shots, I don't see any of them easily breaking 90 on a regular basis. Maybe it's different on better courses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonMA1

I actually thought "soon I'll be good enough to start looking for a new set of forged irons that will match my skill level". What a joke.

You would have been immortalized had you started a thread with that title, at that time.

JonMA1 - you are 100% correct.  Breaking 80 on any course is a big deal.  I guess what I was trying to say is this......lets say you have someone that has just shot even par for the round.  Sounds great right?  Well it's not as good as it sounds after you find out that the course was rated only a 66.5.  So while that person still shot an even par 70, for that person to be considered "scratch" he would have had to shoot 3.5 strokes lower than that!

That's what made me laugh about the OP's first post.....par, in and of itself can be so many different levels.  Yet the OP just like many people (including myself for a while until I understood golf a bit more) correlate par and scratch, which as you can see from the example above, can be quite different.

When I shot 81 a few weeks back at a local muni, it was on a par 70 course that was just under 6k yards and it was a 13.3 rating.  When I shot 81 a week ago Sunday at my much longer and tougher country club, it was a 9.3 rating.  Same score (81), but much different golf performances.  If I did not tell you the details you would have thought that I played just as good both days when in reality, I played much better in the latter round.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24

You would have been immortalized had you started a thread with that title, at that time.

Lol. Until now, I had enough sense to keep that thought to myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjwestner

JonMA1 - you are 100% correct.  Breaking 80 on any course is a big deal.  I guess what I was trying to say is this......lets say you have someone that has just shot even par for the round.  Sounds great right?  Well it's not as good as it sounds after you find out that the course was rated only a 66.5.  So while that person still shot an even par 70, for that person to be considered "scratch" he would have had to shoot 3.5 strokes lower than that!

That's what made me laugh about the OP's first post.....par, in and of itself can be so many different levels.  Yet the OP just like many people (including myself for a while until I understood golf a bit more) correlate par and scratch, which as you can see from the example above, can be quite different.

When I shot 81 a few weeks back at a local muni, it was on a par 70 course that was just under 6k yards and it was a 13.3 rating.  When I shot 81 a week ago Sunday at my much longer and tougher country club, it was a 9.3 rating.  Same score (81), but much different golf performances.  If I did not tell you the details you would have thought that I played just as good both days when in reality, I played much better in the latter round.

I agree in that you would be comparing apples to oranges. Dumb question, but what is the 9.3 and the 13.3 rating? I don't see that on my scorecard.

I should get out and play some different courses if I'm going to start recording for a handicap. One of the courses I play is a 9 hole that doesn't have a rating or slope. Even though it's a short course, the woods, hazards and OOB's are right up to the greens on all but a couple holes. On 6 of the 9, you have to hit over a marsh or a creek. It is sometimes not that well maintained so the rough is exactly that. I'm curious as to what it would rate compared to the other course I play which is a 5437 yd, 67.7/111 from the middle tees. I assume that's a relatively easy course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonMA1

I agree in that you would be comparing apples to oranges. Dumb question, but what is the 9.3 and the 13.3 rating? I don't see that on my scorecard.

I should get out and play some different courses if I'm going to start recording for a handicap. One of the courses I play is a 9 hole that doesn't have a rating or slope. Even though it's a short course, the woods, hazards and OOB's are right up to the greens on all but a couple holes. On 6 of the 9, you have to hit over a marsh or a creek. It is sometimes not that well maintained so the rough is exactly that. I'm curious as to what it would rate compared to the other course I play which is a 5437 yd, 67.7/111 from the middle tees. I assume that's a relatively easy course.

It's not a dumb question at all. Those numbers don't seem to relate to any USGA numbers used for rating golf courses. My guess is that he doesn't live in the US and that is a editing system from some other part of the world?

Edit...my mistake. The 9.3 and 13.3 he is speaking of was his differential on those 2 courses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyrtleBeachGolf

Edit...my mistake. The 9.3 and 13.3 he is speaking of was his differential on those 2 courses.

Okay, that makes sense now.

So, JonMA1, the 9.3 and 13.3 is the score on those courses relative to the course rating.  So to find out the course rating for those courses take his scores (81, 81) and subtract his rating (13.3, 9.3) and you'll get the course rating for the respective courses (67.7, 71.7).  You should find the course rating on your scorecard somewhere, usually somewhere between 69-73 unless it's a very easy or very tough course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24

Okay, that makes sense now.

So, JonMA1, the 9.3 and 13.3 is the score on those courses relative to the course rating.  So to find out the course rating for those courses take his scores (81, 81) and subtract his rating DIFFERENTIAL (13.3, 9.3) and you'll get the course rating for the respective courses (67.7, 71.7) ASSUMING THE SLOPE IS 113.  You should find the course rating on your scorecard somewhere, usually somewhere between 69-73 unless it's a very easy or very tough course.

What you originally wrote is close, but not 100% accurate in all cases as you have to factor in SLOPE in most handicap systems.  You would be correct if the slope was exactly 113 but the differential goes down as the slope goes up (and vice versa)

Roughly, if you shot an ESC adjusted 81 with a course rating of 71, your differential would be about 9 if the slope was 124 and about 11 if the slope was 102.

For each officially posted round, the player's handicap differential is calculated according to the following formula:

$\mbox{Handicap differential} = \frac{ ( \mbox{Equitable Stroke Control} - \mbox{course rating} ) \times 113}{ \mbox{slope rating}}$

ESC score is the equitable score control adjustment, which allows for a maximum number of strokes per hole, for handicap computation purposes only, based on the player's course handicap.

The differential is rounded to the nearest tenth.

Number of rounds Differentials to use
5 or 6 lowest 1
7 or 8 lowest 2
9 or 10 lowest 3
11 or 12 lowest 4
13 or 14 lowest 5
15 or 16 lowest 6
17 lowest 7
18 lowest 8
19 lowest 9

The handicap index is then calculated using the average of the best 10 differentials of the player's past 20 total rounds, multiplied by 0.96.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hampshire2012

How did it go?

Well, as I expected, not so good!

After 10 rounds of absence, suddenly the shanks and the topping were back.

The result was horrible, I finished at 56 for the 9 holes.

I went back in the afternoon and shot 48 (no cheating anymore!)

I seem to have 2 main problems:

1)   visual problem regarding the positioning of my feet towards the ball at set-up, especially when driving.

when I set-up, it looks to me as if the ball is inside my left foot, but in reality it isn't, which causes my ball to go left of target (still rather straight though).

when I purposely put my left foot more to the left, causing the ball to be positioned too much inside (that's how it looks to me), the ball goes straight where I want it!

I'm working on a solution, and it seems to be getting better.

2) during my back-swing, my legs have a tendency of stretching out, moving my body up, which causes me to top the ball (especially irons). I really need to focus on that at every single shot,

cause if I don't (or not enough), I top it.

I've been practicing a lot on that in the last 2 days, and it seems to be getting better, so hopefully my next round (tomorrow) will be better again.

My putting is rather good, averaging about 17 per round of 9 holes (recently had 14 and 15, but usually 17-18).

Quote:
Originally Posted by France46

I understand (and agree with a lot of) the bashing of the OP, but I also think that most golfers would lower their score more by improving their consistency/accuracy/course management/short game than they would by simply adding 20-30 yards off the tee.  When you ignore the details and OPs naivette, I think that is one of the things he might have been trying to say.

Maybe that is too obvious to warrant a thread, but lots of golfers seem more concerned about getting longer than getting better.

Finally someone who understands what I'm trying to say!    And yes, I admit, I can be somewhat naive at times.

17 putts is not good at all especially when you probably miss every green in regulation. It may be the best part of your game but that is because the rest of your game is terrible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pipergsm

Well, as I expected, not so good!
After 10 rounds of absence, suddenly the shanks and the topping were back.
The result was horrible, I finished at 56 for the 9 holes.
I went back in the afternoon and shot 48 (no cheating anymore!)

I seem to have 2 main problems:
1)   visual problem regarding the positioning of my feet towards the ball at set-up, especially when driving.
when I set-up, it looks to me as if the ball is inside my left foot, but in reality it isn't, which causes my ball to go left of target (still rather straight though).
when I purposely put my left foot more to the left, causing the ball to be positioned too much inside (that's how it looks to me), the ball goes straight where I want it!
I'm working on a solution, and it seems to be getting better.
2) during my back-swing, my legs have a tendency of stretching out, moving my body up, which causes me to top the ball (especially irons). I really need to focus on that at every single shot,
cause if I don't (or not enough), I top it.

I've been practicing a lot on that in the last 2 days, and it seems to be getting better, so hopefully my next round (tomorrow) will be better again.
My putting is rather good, averaging about 17 per round of 9 holes (recently had 14 and 15, but usually 17-18).

Finally someone who understands what I'm trying to say!    And yes, I admit, I can be somewhat naive at times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyrtleBeachGolf

Lol. And yet, less than 1% of all league bowlers in the U.S. carry an average of 260. Bowling is much easier than golf, but carrying a 260 average is very much like carrying a low single digit handicap in golf.

Actually, I use to play in a bowling club for just 1 year (Belgium).

Never took any lessons, but practiced every day.

After 5 months, I averaged over 200 with a personal best of 268.

Also finished 7th in the finals of the clubs annual competition.

Indeed, bowling is less complicated than golf, since there are less moving parts during the throw than there are during the swing.

But just like in golf, hand-eye coordination and focus are an important part of the game

it's a 9-hole course of only 3000 yards, but there are so many trees that the slightest deviation on your drive can put you in serious troubles.

On hole nr. 6, there's a big tree in the middle of the fairway that seems to magically attract my shots, making the ball end up just behind it or bouncing back on it.

The condition of the FW is poor compared to most other courses, making a bad lie in the middle of the fairway more rule than exception.

There are quite some water hazards that run across the FW at some pretty difficult places, making it almost impossible to reach the green on hole nr. 8 in anything less than regulation (2), making birdies rather unlikely (unless your chip-shots and putting are of Tour level).

Hole nr. 4, par 3, 175 yards. the green has a diameter of only 16 yards with a bunker closing off 60% of it's entrance, meaning your T-shot has to be very precise if you want it

to be on the green in 1.

Course rating is 67.7 for a par 72, and according to "Swing by Swing" golf gps, the slope rate would be 113.

And by the way, I'm not a complete idiot.

I'm well aware of the fact that this is a rather easy course compared to many others, especially regarding distance.

This is exactly why I want to first improve my game here, since I believe it would only lead to unnecessary frustration trying to play on a course which is way above my abilities.

Once I succeed in scoring 90 or better on my local course (without cheating), I will consider moving on to more elaborate courses

I also believe it's better to slowly build up a course resistance by starting to play 9 holes at a time, and not 18.

Especially when inexperienced and still learning, playing 9 holes can already be exhausting because of the mental focus required, making 18 holes ending up in disaster consistently!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil McGleno

17 putts is not good at all especially when you probably miss every green in regulation. It may be the best part of your game but that is because the rest of your game is terrible.

17 puts (1.88/hole) not good?

CUT THE CRAP!!!

I'm a beginner, not a Tour-player!!!!

You should learn to see things in perspective instead of trying to demoralize people!

Most beginners (and even many who've been playing for years) average way over 2 puts/hole!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24

Yes, most golfers would lower their score by improving consistency, accuracy, course management and short game, and that is too obvious for a new thread.

I believe what the OP really wanted to say--based on subsequent posts--is that he's getting better really fast and thinks golf isn't so hard as it is made out to be.

WRONG!

I'm not trying to say golf is easy, just that most amateur golfers could be playing much better if they would really focus on improving consistency, accuracy and course management.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil McGleno

17 putts is not good at all especially when you probably miss every green in regulation. It may be the best part of your game but that is because the rest of your game is terrible.

You're a golf instructor?

I guess you're one of those accomplished players who have become incapable of seeing results in perspective of experience and level.

Do you say the same crap to your students who have just started learning the game?

Basically telling them (and me) that we can't play and we're no tour players (news flash: WE KNOW!), instead of stimulating them and telling the TRUTH by saying something like this:

17 puts/9 holes, or 1.88/hole, is a good result, but if you want to be a scratch player, or become a Tour player, you'll have to get even better than that!

That's what a real teacher would say!

Do I need to show you some stats from the PGA players about their putting?

Only the very best putters average 1.5 to 1.6 putts/hole, and plenty are closer to 1.8 !!!

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