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Vanity capping is worse than Sandbagging. - Page 2

Poll Results: Which is Worse?

 
  • 8% (7)
    Vanity Handicapping
  • 91% (71)
    Sandbagging
78 Total Votes  
post #19 of 103

Vanity capping is an ego thing.  I've noticed that the most common offenders are the guys that have played for many years but don't practice much and feel the need to artificially adjust their scores to show some improvement.

 

Sandbaggers are the worst kind of cheaters.  IMO, the reason they sandbag is to win tournaments or money against competitors that are not their equal because they don't feel they can win on a even playing field. 

post #20 of 103
Thread Starter 

When it's all said and done though, the sandbagger still needs to play good golf to win the tournament.  I would have a much bigger problem with someone claiming to always shoot in the 70s when they are really a 90+ shooter, than someone who nets 7 under in a tournament.  As I have said before sandbagging just shows a blatant weakness of the handicap system.

post #21 of 103

Sandbagging is an attempt to defraud for purposes of winning money or prizes.  It is stealing IMO.

post #22 of 103

They should call it scumbagging. In fact, I think I will from now on!

post #23 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by trackster View Post

When it's all said and done though, the sandbagger still needs to play good golf to win the tournament.  I would have a much bigger problem with someone claiming to always shoot in the 70s when they are really a 90+ shooter, than someone who nets 7 under in a tournament.  As I have said before sandbagging just shows a blatant weakness of the handicap system.

There is no flaw in the handicap system. A flaw presumes there is a deficiency that can be corrected. The handicap system works perfectly well, but it does presume the complete integrity of its participants. I would say the flaw is in the people who abuse it, not the system.
post #24 of 103

I have played anything from 14 to 40 over, but it is all good to me. I enjoy playing the game, and have learned to not let my score get to me. a1_smile.gif However, I don't think people I play with in even a friendly competitive environment would appreciate that very much.

 

Hence my vote goes toward sandbagging as much worse, especially when money is involved.

post #25 of 103

Judging by the poll results at the moment, 18-3, it sounds like we have 3 sandbaggers in the thread.  LOL

post #26 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by trackster View Post

When it's all said and done though, the sandbagger still needs to play good golf to win the tournament.  I would have a much bigger problem with someone claiming to always shoot in the 70s when they are really a 90+ shooter, than someone who nets 7 under in a tournament.  As I have said before sandbagging just shows a blatant weakness of the handicap system.

Hmmm...So you think it's better to take money that isn't rightfully yours and/or win a trophy that isn't rightfully yours, than to go home in last place with no money, and publicly humiliated as a fraud?

 

I ain't seeing it. z7_no.gif

post #27 of 103

I voted sandbagging, but I think I see the OP's point.  In theory, sandbagging has to be worse because they cheated in order to get more strokes.  It is worse.

 

In theory, vanity cap would be the opposite, but it doesn't really work that way unless you are going to follow a guy around the course and watch everything he does.  A person - more often than not - gets a vanity cap by cheating.  Weather that is foot wedge, improved lie, no distance penalty, forgetting strokes, not turning in rounds, mulligans, etc - it is all still cheating.  And if he cheated to get there, then he'll cheat in the competition too. And the competition is more important, so he'll probably cheat more.  

 

To me, a vanity cap is an indicator that a guy cheats and I'll have to do one of a few things:

1. Watch him close all day

2. Possibly get in arguments about the rules

3. Have to call a guy out for cheating

4. Just sit by quietly as he cheats his way to a great score - which he will not let anyone forget about 

post #28 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey View Post

I voted sandbagging, but I think I see the OP's point.  In theory, sandbagging has to be worse because they cheated in order to get more strokes.  It is worse.

 

In theory, vanity cap would be the opposite, but it doesn't really work that way unless you are going to follow a guy around the course and watch everything he does.  A person - more often than not - gets a vanity cap by cheating.  Weather that is foot wedge, improved lie, no distance penalty, forgetting strokes, not turning in rounds, mulligans, etc - it is all still cheating.  And if he cheated to get there, then he'll cheat in the competition too. And the competition is more important, so he'll probably cheat more.  

 

To me, a vanity cap is an indicator that a guy cheats and I'll have to do one of a few things:

1. Watch him close all day

2. Possibly get in arguments about the rules

3. Have to call a guy out for cheating

4. Just sit by quietly as he cheats his way to a great score - which he will not let anyone forget about 

 

What's the point of keeping score? Most of us higher handicappers score from okay to really bad. The only reason to keep a score is to keep track of your progress and direct improvements (like course management, choice of strategy, etc.).

 

If a vanity capper that does any or all those things you mentioned in your post, how do they improve? What do they do? Do they keep a "personal" score, and one for the records? When you lie you need to keep two stories straight.

 

Personally, I don't care what my partners score, if they forgot a stroke that's to their own detriment. I'm too busy watching what I am doing on my next shot to worry about what they are doing. It only takes away from my own enjoyment of the game.

 

I hope there aren't many amateurs who are vanity cappers that fall into this category.

post #29 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by trackster View Post

I'm not entirely sure how sandbagging occurs.  Is it people just reporting false rounds, or is it people not following ESC when entering? 

 

I think the most common way is for guys to NOT report their good rounds, and only report their bad rounds.  

 

I qualified for an NCGA competition last year through my club, and it was a fourball team competition.  So another guy from my club qualified along with me.  After we found out we qualified, I heard his father (whom I had always suspected of being the biggest sandbagger in the club) instructing him to "not post any good rounds" until after the competition came up.

 

Not following ESC seems like a another good way, but how much can that really impact a handicap under any current revision?  .2 strokes?  1 full stroke?

post #30 of 103
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback View Post

Judging by the poll results at the moment, 18-3, it sounds like we have 3 sandbaggers in the thread.  LOL

 

I could turn the same side and say that we have 25 vanity cappers in the thread right now. 

 

If you don't like sandbaggers don't play handicap tournaments.  Play straight up.  What I'm saying is that a sandbagger still has to play good come tournament time.  A vanity cap never has to play well.  They can always say they just did this and that. 

post #31 of 103

I guess this would qualify me as a vanity capper when I tear up my scorecard in the middle of a round.  I don't do it for vanity however, it is born out of pure disgust. Lately however, I write down every score as  I want to get an accurate assessment of how I am doing.  I am not in competition so it really does not make any difference. Funny part is though, as soon as I tear up the card, I start hitting decent shots again.

post #32 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey View Post

To me, a vanity cap is an indicator that a guy cheats and I'll have to do one of a few things:

1. Watch him close all day

2. Possibly get in arguments about the rules

3. Have to call a guy out for cheating

4. Just sit by quietly as he cheats his way to a great score - which he will not let anyone forget about 

 

They are both liars and/or cheaters, so I don't think any specific potential flaw is only possible for the Vanity Capper.  A Vanity Capper can simply post a score without doing any of the things you referenced.  All he or she has to do is play out the hole and write down a score other than what he actually scored.  "I'm not going to count all three of those chips, cause I rushed through the first two.  When I post, I will take two off of my score."  It's as simple as that.  

 

They are both lying about their scores, one simply has an impact on everybody else in a stroke-play individual event, and the other impacts himself only.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by trackster View Post

If you don't like sandbaggers don't play handicap tournaments.  Play straight up.  

 

So then I have to go from having a, say, theoretical 30% chance of winning to now having a 5% chance of winning (since there are at least 3 low single-digit handicappers in my club) every tournament because of some cheaters?  Someday I'd love to be good enough to be able to play straight up, but there's no way I'm contributing my $$$ to an event that I have virtually no chance of winning.   

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by trackster View Post

What I'm saying is that a sandbagger still has to play good come tournament time.  A vanity cap never has to play well.  They can always say they just did this and that. 

 

 

They have to play good relative to what?  You realize that the definition of "good" is actually what's at issue here?  The point of handicapping is that we have to play "good" compared to our own ability.  My net score reflects my score against what my theoretical ability is based on my last 20 rounds.  So what a sandbagger is doing, is giving themselves a much lower (higher?) bar for what constitutes "good" for them.  They have a large margin for error.

 

If player A is a legit 6 handicap and double-bogies the first hole of the event, he's in deep trouble going forward unless he really buckles down.  But if player B is a legit 6 and sandbags to an 11, he is just as good as player A, but if he doubles the first hole, he knows he still has a good chance of posting a good net score, because he has a larger margin of error from "good."  That is patently unfair.

 

A vanity handicap is a cosmetic defect in comparison.

post #33 of 103

I think lots of guys go thru at least a mild period of vanity capping -- when they hit those dreaded plateaus but still feel (maybe rightly) that they are still improving, HC notwithstanding. So they improve on nature for a while. Until they realize it is 1 - waste of time; 2 - waste of gambling money. I loves me some vanity cappers in the Sun morning Nassau! I'm an full-on incidental sandbagger -- I play 9 holes of dawn patrol golf @ 5 am in the summer b4 work and record those scores. I am 100% honest, do the ESC scrupulously, but hell, I can't shoot my best that early. So my HC tends to rise a bit on those. Not much I can do about that except NOT report them and then I am putting myself in the vanity camp. So, I just record them and that's it.

post #34 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hacker James View Post

I guess this would qualify me as a vanity capper when I tear up my scorecard in the middle of a round.  I don't do it for vanity however, it is born out of pure disgust. Lately however, I write down every score as  I want to get an accurate assessment of how I am doing.  I am not in competition so it really does not make any difference. Funny part is though, as soon as I tear up the card, I start hitting decent shots again.

 

The first year I got serious about golf (about 4-5 years ago), I was a vanity capper.  I would turn any round that got away from me into a practice round, and stop keeping a score and instead start playing multiple balls to figure out what was going on.  I don't believe I carried an index back then though, as I've only been a member of the NCGA for 3 years now.

post #35 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post

 

What's the point of keeping score? Most of us higher handicappers score from okay to really bad. The only reason to keep a score is to keep track of your progress and direct improvements (like course management, choice of strategy, etc.).

 

If a vanity capper that does any or all those things you mentioned in your post, how do they improve? What do they do? Do they keep a "personal" score, and one for the records? When you lie you need to keep two stories straight.

Those are great questions, but I do not know the answer.  I think they are lying to themselves a little.  An 18 handicap just sounds too high - they can't come to grips with it.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post


They are both liars and/or cheaters, so I don't think any specific potential flaw is only possible for the Vanity Capper.  A Vanity Capper can simply post a score without doing any of the things you referenced.  All he or she has to do is play out the hole and write down a score other than what he actually scored.  "I'm not going to count all three of those chips, cause I rushed through the first two.  When I post, I will take two off of my score."  It's as simple as that.  

 

They are both lying about their scores, one simply has an impact on everybody else in a stroke-play individual event, and the other impacts himself only.

Totally agree.  I just think we might be overstating how having the lower cap works against a guy.  It should - but they seem to find a way. Just ramp up the cheating I guess.

post #36 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post

They have to play good relative to what?  You realize that the definition of "good" is actually what's at issue here?  The point of handicapping is that we have to play "good" compared to our own ability.  My net score reflects my score against what my theoretical ability is based on my last 20 rounds.  So what a sandbagger is doing, is giving themselves a much lower (higher?) bar for what constitutes "good" for them.  They have a large margin for error.

 

If player A is a legit 6 handicap and double-bogies the first hole of the event, he's in deep trouble going forward unless he really buckles down.  But if player B is a legit 6 and sandbags to an 11, he is just as good as player A, but if he doubles the first hole, he knows he still has a good chance of posting a good net score, because he has a larger margin of error from "good."  That is patently unfair.

 

A vanity handicap is a cosmetic defect in comparison.

To continue your excellent example if Player C is a legit 15 and vanity caps to a 6 and double-bogies the first hole he might as well go home cause it's very unlikely he's going to play good enough to overcome the extra strokes he gave away with his vanity cap. 

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