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Vanity capping is worse than Sandbagging. - Page 5

Poll Results: Which is Worse?

 
  • 8% (7)
    Vanity Handicapping
  • 91% (71)
    Sandbagging
78 Total Votes  
post #73 of 103
A true 30 hcp does not shoot 84 on a par 72 course. No way Sometimes, when people start playing for handicaps they are a lot better and the handicap will go down 15 strokes within a month. Sometimes the handicap commitee will lower ones handicap when they recognise the above situation. This thread is about the true vanity capper and true sandbagger, they purposely play of a much lower/higher handicap.
post #74 of 103

This discussion reminds me of the old joke where two baggers had just finished their round.  The one shark is saying to his buddy, "He said he was a 12 so I gave him a stroke a side.  Hell, I had to shoot 68 to beat him, the crook!"

post #75 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by billchao View Post

Honestly, if someone wants to accuse me of being a 26 instead of a 17, I'd gladly accept a money game as a 26.

 

I would, however, hate to be accused a cheater by sandbagging.

 

I guess my ego just doesn't need other people to know how good I am. If someone wants to accuse me of being worse than I know I am, I really don't care. I don't need to be validated by anyone other than myself.

 

Don't be silly, half these 'outraged' threads here are all about people getting panties bunched up over what others are doing.  Seems to be a lot of nose sticking in golf over childish and subjective junk.  I also wonder exactly what "Golf stands for" - other than a challenging and low effort activity that many find fun (and a means to learn new levels of frustration).

 

Nice comment.

post #76 of 103
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacDutch View Post

A true 30 hcp does not shoot 84 on a par 72 course. No way Sometimes, when people start playing for handicaps they are a lot better and the handicap will go down 15 strokes within a month. Sometimes the handicap commitee will lower ones handicap when they recognise the above situation. This thread is about the true vanity capper and true sandbagger, they purposely play of a much lower/higher handicap.

 

I'll give you that it was not during a tournament.  But I had been golfing for over a year when I did it.  I had just shot a few 110's the weak before.  I played the round of my life (at the time) and shot an 84.  If anything I was a vanity capper at the time because I didn't exactly know the rules on drops and O.B.  During my 84 round I didn't have to deal with any penalties.

 

So is the consensus in this thread that we know some sandbaggers because we see them do it and we just assume that high cappers who play well in tournaments are sandbaggers?

post #77 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by trackster View Post


So is the consensus in this thread that we know some sandbaggers because we see them do it and we just assume that high cappers who play well in tournaments are sandbaggers?

Concensus appears to be that sandbagging is worse than vanity capping.
post #78 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post


Concensus appears to be that sandbagging is worse than vanity capping.

I thought the consensus was that forged blades are better than cast?

 

Wrong thread? Sorry, my bad.

post #79 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernest Jones View Post

I thought the consensus was that forged blades are better than cast?

 

Wrong thread? Sorry, my bad.

 

 

funny!  It's not complete unless we call the users of one type a disparaging name - "chops"  "hacks"  whatever

 

 

How does this make some feel.....?

 

1 - A person contends that sandbagging, in order to win money, is terrible and immoral (I agree it is since the other player KNOWS that they have an advantage constructed in the handicap process)

 

2 - That same person is "Happy to take the money from a vanity handicapper" (they KNOW that they have an advantage constructed in the handicap process)....

 

 

 

bring on the rationalizations

 

 

Quote:
Concensus appears to be that sandbagging is worse than vanity capping.

I'd contend that "worse" is how any individual intends to take advantage of it whether directly, or (see above) as an unfair opportunity.  No harm, no foul, the intentions are what matters.  (Probably applicable mostly to 'intentional' sandbaggers)

post #80 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by trackster View Post

 

I'll give you that it was not during a tournament.  But I had been golfing for over a year when I did it.  I had just shot a few 110's the weak before.  I played the round of my life (at the time) and shot an 84.  If anything I was a vanity capper at the time because I didn't exactly know the rules on drops and O.B.  During my 84 round I didn't have to deal with any penalties.

 

So is the consensus in this thread that we know some sandbaggers because we see them do it and we just assume that high cappers who play well in tournaments are sandbaggers?

 

My assumptions is that who defend sandbaggers are sandbaggers themselves.

post #81 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback View Post

 

My assumptions is that who defend sandbaggers are sandbaggers themselves.

Can't really see why anyone else would defend them.

post #82 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by trackster View Post

 

I'll give you that it was not during a tournament.  But I had been golfing for over a year when I did it.  I had just shot a few 110's the weak before.  I played the round of my life (at the time) and shot an 84.  If anything I was a vanity capper at the time because I didn't exactly know the rules on drops and O.B.  During my 84 round I didn't have to deal with any penalties.

 

So is the consensus in this thread that we know some sandbaggers because we see them do it and we just assume that high cappers who play well in tournaments are sandbaggers?

 

 

I can see why it is difficult for you to have updated your handicap when you shot 110 a few times before getting an 84. Was this all on the same course?

 

However, 84 is a really good score, which would be only 14 over on my typical course. Which means that you needed to par 4 holes and single bogey the rest.

 

I can see why there is doubt surrounding your getting it as a 30HP.

 

Do you regularly get 84s, now?

post #83 of 103
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post

 

 

I can see why it is difficult for you to have updated your handicap when you shot 110 a few times before getting an 84. Was this all on the same course?

 

However, 84 is a really good score, which would be only 14 over on my typical course. Which means that you needed to par 4 holes and single bogey the rest.

 

I can see why there is doubt surrounding your getting it as a 30HP.

 

Do you regularly get 84s, now?

 

Yes it was all on the same course.  I can't say that I kept an official cap at that time.  But if I did it would have been around 30 if not above (Was constantly shooting 105+, maxing out in the high 110s) on a 70.9/118 course.  The 84 was a PR by 13 strokes.  It just all fell into place at the time. 

 

So far this year I have scores of 80, 88  from the tips 72.1/121 and 85,90, 90, 90, 94 from the reds 70.9/118.  I just used an online handicap calculator and it said I am a 10 HCP.

 

 I'm guessing people got smoked by a high handicapper playing well in a tournament and their only logical explanation was that the person was a sandbagger.  I'm just saying that high handicappers do play well every once in a blue moon.  As you can see from my rounds I have a 14 shot spread on my best to worse round.  My friend who plays to a 26 has over a 20 shot spread on his best to worse.  I'm not defending sand baggers or vanity cappers.  I am not a fan of handicap tournaments at all.  I would rather lose straight up than shoot 15 strokes worse than someone but win because my handicap is 20 points higher.

post #84 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by trackster View Post

When it's all said and done though, the sandbagger still needs to play good golf to win the tournament.  I would have a much bigger problem with someone claiming to always shoot in the 70s when they are really a 90+ shooter, than someone who nets 7 under in a tournament.  As I have said before sandbagging just shows a blatant weakness of the handicap system.

 

Interesting thread and I agree with your statement trackster, yes sandbagging is a weakness of the handicap system.  I never thought sandbagging occurred much until I joined a country club.  It's nuts!  It does happen by many people.  I do not get it.  I look at my hc as an accomplishment and work hard to legally improve it as much as I can. 

 

I posted a thread the other day about the unique situation that I am in and the "weakness" of the handicap system.  Since I am improving my game because I have not been playing long, my handicap is higher than it probably should be.  This has led to whispers at my club about me being a sandbagger (which could not be further from the truth) and I've also had people suggest that it's a vanity thing.  The reality is that the handicap system is not an average but is based on potential.  So based on potential if someone shoots an 9.3 rating and their current hc was 13.6, the drop is only down to 13.0!  Yet that person has the "potential" to be at least 9.3 yet the handicap system that the USGA runs commercials saying how fair it is only makes exceptional changes in one direction or the other if two or more tournament rounds are posted with a larger than 3 stroke differential!

 

The bigger problem is sandbagging of the two, but the handicap system is anything but fair.

post #85 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by trackster View Post

 

Yes it was all on the same course.  I can't say that I kept an official cap at that time.  But if I did it would have been around 30 if not above (Was constantly shooting 105+, maxing out in the high 110s) on a 70.9/118 course.  The 84 was a PR by 13 strokes.  It just all fell into place at the time. 

 

So far this year I have scores of 80, 88  from the tips 72.1/121 and 85,90, 90, 90, 94 from the reds 70.9/118.  I just used an online handicap calculator and it said I am a 10 HCP.

 

 I'm guessing people got smoked by a high handicapper playing well in a tournament and their only logical explanation was that the person was a sandbagger.  I'm just saying that high handicappers do play well every once in a blue moon.  As you can see from my rounds I have a 14 shot spread on my best to worse round.  My friend who plays to a 26 has over a 20 shot spread on his best to worse.  I'm not defending sand baggers or vanity cappers.  I am not a fan of handicap tournaments at all.  I would rather lose straight up than shoot 15 strokes worse than someone but win because my handicap is 20 points higher.


I see you as more of a purist.

 

However, as golf is an individual game, the handicap system allows those who play generally worse to be matched with a much better player. Both still need to perform at their best. It is an even match in the sense that both need to perform at or above their individual best in order to win.

 

This is why it is important to keep your handicap correct and updated.

 

Once you are good enough to play without any handicap (and I sense that you will get there soon enough), then you can play against all the other scratch players.

 

Those that can play scratch can do this, while the rest of us can only play against our averaged and normalized best scores.

post #86 of 103

Unless I'm playing someone for money, how they play their game and keep their score is their business.  I use to have a regular Sunday 4-some and one of the guys was famous for hitting it 7+ times, throwing his ball from over an embankment by the green, etc. and then when we asked him what he got he said "Par."  He ended up "winning" every week and then bragging about it at work.  We thought it was hilarious and we joked about getting "Pencil Whipped" and him hitting a "Hand Wedge."  I was shooting mid 70s rounds every week and he was easily shooting mid 90s.  The rest of us thought it was entertaining, but we also didn't take the game seriously.  It was just an excuse to get together and have fun.

post #87 of 103
I just found out that one of our long time members was just run out of the club by membership for sandbagging (/cheating) and is not allowed to play in any money games at his new club (there are members at both clubs that used to play at the other.) He is a real nice guy but he apparently just cant help himself even after being confronted by members year after year. I have never seen him shoot more that 2 over at our club (72.0/130 rating) yet he is currently carrying a 9 HC.

There are 2 of us 20+ handicappers in the final 8 of our match play championship tourney - and since one of us is guaranteed to be in the final 4 since we are playing each other this week - I have a feeling that whoever wins is going to be called out (even though we have played with most of the members and they know why we have earned our HCs)
post #88 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by meenman View Post

I just found out that one of our long time members was just run out of the club by membership for sandbagging (/cheating) and is not allowed to play in any money games at his new club (there are members at both clubs that used to play at the other.) He is a real nice guy but he apparently just cant help himself even after being confronted by members year after year. I have never seen him shoot more that 2 over at our club (72.0/130 rating) yet he is currently carrying a 9 HC.

There are 2 of us 20+ handicappers in the final 8 of our match play championship tourney - and since one of us is guaranteed to be in the final 4 since we are playing each other this week - I have a feeling that whoever wins is going to be called out (even though we have played with most of the members and they know why we have earned our HCs)

My club has switched from a 2 day stroke play, to a match play to determine the men's net club champion.  I think I will be successful in this new format.  I have always been a good golfer for 12-14 holes.  It's the other 4-6 holes that ruin my rounds and cause me to have a higher handicap, which is probably the case for most of us bogey golfers.  I get jokingly called a sandbagger/cheat when I win any money in our Saturday games.  It's not my fault that they play skins.

 

My buddy won our net club championship last year and he had guys saying things to him on the range before the final round.  Calling him a cheat, sandbagger, etc...  I have seen my buddy play numerous rounds and he is definitely a low to mid 80's regular golfer.  He shot 78 one day of the tournament and 82 the next day and he is a 10 handicap.  He will shoot in the 70's maybe 2-3 times per 20 rounds and it just so happened in the tournament.

post #89 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCfanatic35 View Post

My club has switched from a 2 day stroke play, to a match play to determine the men's net club champion.  I think I will be successful in this new format.  I have always been a good golfer for 12-14 holes.  It's the other 4-6 holes that ruin my rounds and cause me to have a higher handicap, which is probably the case for most of us bogey golfers.  I get jokingly called a sandbagger/cheat when I win any money in our Saturday games.  It's not my fault that they play skins.

 

My buddy won our net club championship last year and he had guys saying things to him on the range before the final round.  Calling him a cheat, sandbagger, etc...  I have seen my buddy play numerous rounds and he is definitely a low to mid 80's regular golfer.  He shot 78 one day of the tournament and 82 the next day and he is a 10 handicap.  He will shoot in the 70's maybe 2-3 times per 20 rounds and it just so happened in the tournament.

 

Your example doesn't rightly qualify as sandbagging.  Guys may get lumped in with real baggers if they occasionally play better than their index, but that can happen with a mid-capper who is improving.  A 30 handicap shouldn't be able to shoot 12 over, but that's at least possible, in a certain context.  A real sandbagger is a sinister thing, for to consistently maintain an index that is higher than your ability and effort might merit, you must either consciously fail to post rounds that would reduce your index, or intentionally play poorly in casual rounds so as to inflate your score, and by extension, your index.  There is no plausible reason to cheat yourself this way, save for gaining an advantage on competitors in official competition, which in my opinion is no different than giving yourself a mulligan when nobody is watching.

 

 

 

A vanity handicap is like a chubby girl wearing low rise jeans.  You may not like a muffin top, but she's not really hurting anybody, is she? 

post #90 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by carrx View Post

 

Your example doesn't rightly qualify as sandbagging.  Guys may get lumped in with real baggers if they occasionally play better than their index, but that can happen with a mid-capper who is improving.  A 30 handicap shouldn't be able to shoot 12 over, but that's at least possible, in a certain context.  A real sandbagger is a sinister thing, for to consistently maintain an index that is higher than your ability and effort might merit, you must either consciously fail to post rounds that would reduce your index, or intentionally play poorly in casual rounds so as to inflate your score, and by extension, your index.  There is no plausible reason to cheat yourself this way, save for gaining an advantage on competitors in official competition, which in my opinion is no different than giving yourself a mulligan when nobody is watching.

 

 

 

A vanity handicap is like a chubby girl wearing low rise jeans.  You may not like a muffin top, but she's not really hurting anybody, is she? 

I know mine doesn't qualify as sandbagging because it's not.  I obviously failed to make my point with my post.  I was replying to meenman's post and intended to include that I sympathized with him and the possibility he might be called a sandbagger just because he is a successful bogey golfer. a1_smile.gif

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