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Slicing with an Inside Out Path - Page 2

post #19 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisedgar View Post

Where you're body is pointing is irrelevant. If you are aiming left hoping to fade it straight then you must be coming out to in. You physically can not come in to out while aiming your body left because you will have no room to bring your arms past your right hip

Quote:
Originally Posted by cipher View Post

Sorry, your wrong. I will be backed up on this.

Yeah, I have to agree with cipher on this one. It shouldn't make a difference where your body is lined up or aiming at. You can most definitely swing in to out while being lined up left of target. Lining up facing to the left of target isn't going to make a difference of how you swing.

If you have an in-to-out swing, it doesn't matter of you set up facing the flag, facing right, facing left, or even if you face straight backwards. You are still going to make the same in-to-out swing.
post #20 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by billchao View Post

I'm sorry am I missing something here? When I aim left with my body I just turn my entire alignment left... the swing is exactly the same as if I was aiming straight (in to out). I don't understand how that would alter the relationship between my arms and my hips?
Nope you are correct. You can aim to the left swing inside out and hit a straight or push fade. It is not arguable.
post #21 of 73
Look I think we are just confusing semantics. A genuine slice doesn't start right of target a slice that starts right of target is a push slice.

As you say cipher a push slice is caused by an in to out swing. The diagram 'everythinggolf' posted is spot on. That explains everything perfectly
post #22 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisedgar View Post

Look I think we are just confusing semantics. A genuine slice doesn't start right of target a slice that starts right of target is a push slice.

As you say cipher a push slice is caused by an in to out swing. The diagram 'everythinggolf' posted is spot on. That explains everything perfectly
Sure, but the diagram is relative to body lines and not a specific target. That is why I say you can aim left, start a ball along your body lines and fade it with and inside out swing. It is just not correct to say that any ball that starts left of the the target and fades is an outside in path. Making sense?
post #23 of 73
Thread Starter 
Safe to say I am effectively confused now.....seriously though this is great stuff guys, thanks. I have a lot to learn about the swing.
post #24 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Hacker View Post

Safe to say I am effectively confused now.....seriously though this is great stuff guys, thanks. I have a lot to learn about the swing.

Confusion is the natural state of my game a3_biggrin.gif. I just tell myself that making mistakes is important to the learning process e2_whistling.gif

 

Anyway, get some impact tape, that will tell you where you strike the ball. That will narrow the culprit down. Film is good too, but Trackman would be better, if you have access to it.

post #25 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuciusWooding View Post

Or, more likely, what you're feeling in the swing isn't what's actually happening. You could be stricken with the dreaded "double cross" where you change directions in the downswing and hit the opposite shot you're trying to, ie you do have a slicer's out to in path coming into impact though you can do this without an over the top move. You can also do this with a ball position that's too close to your body, which makes you get stuck on the way down, or far forward which makes you flip your wrists.

 

But if you get more solid and correct impact alignments, your slice will go away. When you've got the weight forward with a flat left wrist, it's hard to slice without doing it intentionally, or at least feeling way off. 

 

It's incredibly frustrating to understand the physics and not be able to pull this off. I just came in from unsuccessfully trying to draw ball with my 5 iron. I know what's happening at impact because of the ball flight, but it doesn't match what I'm trying to do and what I feel. Not a big deal yet as far as what's needed on the course, but it bugs the heck out of me that I'm incapable of drawing the ball.

 

With my driver this weekend, I closed my stance (rotated body alignment right of the target) and closed the clubface a bit (left of swing path). This resulted in a drastic reduction of my slice and even a couple of pull draws. It seemed like a bandaid fix to a bigger issue. 

 

As suggested above. I believe there are bigger issues with my swing -  perhaps the lack of fundamentals such as weight forward. flat left wrist at impact, proper swing plane, etc. I will be getting the 5SK discs in a couple of weeks. Hopefully, my swing mechanics will improve and this will no longer be an impossible task.

post #26 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonMA1 View Post

 

It's incredibly frustrating to understand the physics and not be able to pull this off. I just came in from unsuccessfully trying to draw ball with my 5 iron. I know what's happening at impact because of the ball flight, but it doesn't match what I'm trying to do and what I feel. Not a big deal yet as far as what's needed on the course, but it bugs the heck out of me that I'm incapable of drawing the ball.

 

With my driver this weekend, I closed my stance (rotated body alignment right of the target) and closed the clubface a bit (left of swing path). This resulted in a drastic reduction of my slice and even a couple of pull draws. It seemed like a bandaid fix to a bigger issue. 

 

As suggested above. I believe there are bigger issues with my swing -  perhaps the lack of fundamentals such as weight forward. flat left wrist at impact, proper swing plane, etc. I will be getting the 5SK discs in a couple of weeks. Hopefully, my swing mechanics will improve and this will no longer be an impossible task.

Been there, it's frustrating. 

 

Sometimes I like to consider one part of my game to be where I want it, then try and polish up absolutely everything else in one long practice session, or pick a club or ball flight I can't remotely hit and decide to master it that day.

 

Well, that's not a patient strategy. No one has the ability to simply take on changing their whole game at once. Even though I am willing to practice until I'm spent just about every day, and have talent, and a pretty good knowledge of the swing, I got stuck on a wild goose chase over 10 different aspects of my game. Better to focus on one single thing at a time, even if that's just path or setup or face control. Sometimes I'll be working on one thing and end up subconsciously adding power or a trajectory change and mess up everything.

 

Working strictly on a drill for an in to out path can mean you still succeed if you whiff entirely, or don't hit it solid, or hit it off the range. It's easy to get frustrated, because you're not hitting good shots. But if you are really trying to ingrain that one aspect of your swing, you are still making progress. Results sometimes take years, like Tiger's swing change under Foley. He had all the resources, talent, and instruction in the world behind him and still played like a scrub for a good while. And he was already decent when he started. He wanted to get better and was willing to pick apart his game entirely.

 

Personally, drawing the ball is a combination of setup and my backswing for me. If I make a proper setup, even though it sometimes feels odd (when I'm having an off day and have no clue what I'm doing), I hit 70% of my shots acceptably solid just from that. If I don't set up properly, nothing else matters and it's just a question of how bad the miss is going to be. My downswing is not conscious, all I focus on is how aggressively I want to hit and where the little white ball is.

 

Mostly the setup problem I have is making sure I have enough space between myself and the ball. I've had to step through my shot ala Gary Player if I overdo this, but it seems like every time I do it's a good shot. 

 

As for the backswing, the main mistake I make is getting my body, especially my hips, between my hands/arms and their spot at impact and end up getting stuck on the downswing. If everything's out of the way you can just deliver the club, if there's something in the way you need to reroute or change your timing to get through the shot. You want the most efficient path possible with extension for more leverage, and you'll maximize your speed and keep your alignments solid. It doesn't require much of an in to out path to achieve the desired effect.

 

So I'm not an instructor but there's a few things to think about. I can't guarantee if they'll work for you, but the 5SK program should help if you stick with it, as will posting your swing on this site.

post #27 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by cipher View Post

Sure, but the diagram is relative to body lines and not a specific target. That is why I say you can aim left, start a ball along your body lines and fade it with and inside out swing. It is just not correct to say that any ball that starts left of the the target and fades is an outside in path. Making sense?

No, the diagram is relative to where you were initially aiming with the club face. As I said before body position is irrelevant to ball flight. The body does not make contact with the ball only the club does. The position of the body is only changed to facilitate the change in swing path. If you aim left of the flag with the club face then you are in reality hitting to a target left of your true target.
post #28 of 73
Yes, sorry, I thought you might be by now lol.

Simply you can slice it with an inside out path but this is really a push slice which is actually worse unfortunately. It can especially occur when trying to draw the ball resulting in a dreaded double cross. This happens when you don't roll your hands over enough just before impact
post #29 of 73

To the OP, Lee Trevino played a push fade and simply aimed way left to adjust.  For most of us this will not result in the longest shot, but it worked for him.  If you are really consistent and happy with your distance, you could give it a try.  

Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisedgar View Post

Look I think we are just confusing semantics. A genuine slice doesn't start right of target a slice that starts right of target is a push slice.

As you say cipher a push slice is caused by an in to out swing. The diagram 'everythinggolf' posted is spot on. That explains everything perfectly

So what would be the shot shape if you swung out to in (left of your target) with an open club face (right of target) assuming center contact- seems like it would be a push with an even bigger slice.

post #30 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisedgar View Post


No, the diagram is relative to where you were initially aiming with the club face. As I said before body position is irrelevant to ball flight. The body does not make contact with the ball only the club does. The position of the body is only changed to facilitate the change in swing path. If you aim left of the flag with the club face then you are in reality hitting to a target left of your true target.

The body alignments helps determine the path of the ball and yes all that really matters is the direction of the club face in relation to the path at impact.  But you cannot define any sort of push or pull such as in the diagram we are discussing without know body alignments, so with respect you are not correct.  The dotted line is body alignments not the angle the club face is pointing at address.  I just want to make sure that those here who do not understand, learn this correctly.

 

Ball Flight Laws.jpg

post #31 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by France46 View Post

To the OP, Lee Trevino played a push fade and simply aimed way left to adjust.  For most of us this will not result in the longest shot, but it worked for him.  If you are really consistent and happy with your distance, you could give it a try.  
So what would be the shot shape if you swung out to in (left of your target) with an open club face (right of target) assuming center contact- seems like it would be a push with an even bigger slice.
Ooh yuck you had to bring that one up lol.

I call that a shank slice, I've never found a more 'official' name for it. This type of motion will result in a ball that starts way right and goes farther right, just like you said. It is even theoretically possible to shank this kind of move because you will be leading the hosel into the ball.
post #32 of 73
Thread Starter 

Just curious but I have a pretty aggressive move forward with my hips to start the downswing and I am wondering if I actual have too much lateral motion and am moving my swing arc forward which causes me to have the face open at impact. I will try to get a video up today but I do keep my head and my upper body back for the most part but my lower body moves a significant deal forward. This has helped me hit my irons much more flush but I wonder if its hurting my swing the driver.

 

As usual I'm most likely completely wrong here :)

post #33 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Hacker View Post

Just curious but I have a pretty aggressive move forward with my hips to start the downswing and I am wondering if I actual have too much lateral motion and am moving my swing arc forward which causes me to have the face open at impact. I will try to get a video up today but I do keep my head and my upper body back for the most part but my lower body moves a significant deal forward. This has helped me hit my irons much more flush but I wonder if its hurting my swing the driver.

 

As usual I'm most likely completely wrong here :)

 



Possibly, will need to see a video to be sure though. Bear in mind though that all great drivers of the ball stay well 'behind' the ball at impact.

post #34 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by cipher View Post

The body alignments helps determine the path of the ball and yes all that really matters is the direction of the club face in relation to the path at impact.  But you cannot define any sort of push or pull such as in the diagram we are discussing without know body alignments, so with respect you are not correct.  The dotted line is body alignments not the angle the club face is pointing at address.  I just want to make sure that those here who do not understand, learn this correctly.

Ok maybe I wasn't clear enough. The dotted line in the diagram is your intended target line i.e. where you want the ball to start on it's flight. Body alignment doesn't come into a discusiion on ball flight laws. Granted when trying to achieve any of these flights you need to think about body alignment but the body has no impact on the fundamental laws of mechanics.

post #35 of 73

Here is a great paper on ball flight laws. First hit when you type "ball flight laws" in to Google actually.
 

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/ballflight.htm

post #36 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisedgar View Post

Ok maybe I wasn't clear enough. The dotted line in the diagram is your intended target line i.e. where you want the ball to start on it's flight. Body alignment doesn't come into a discusiion on ball flight laws. 

Again this is not correct, if you mean starting line then maybe but it has to be the same as your body lines in this diagram.  You cannot define any sort of push or pull such as in the diagram we are discussing without know body alignments, period.

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