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"Hey! While we're young!" - USGA Pace of Play - Page 10

post #163 of 457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfer6760 View Post

One course I play at has no starter. You see the pro (real high paid cashier) in the shop, pay your way, walk to the 1st tee with your buddies and you stand in line and hit when it's your turn. Kinda like going to a deli counter. Every round there is 5+ hours and the cart girl is friendly. Doesn't sound like there's any emergency there to follow the lead of the USGA.

 

I bet Iasac will still blame the problem on the golfer.

 

Of course. If all of the players played more quickly, the round would not take five hours.

 

You've yet to demonstrate how the "management" is responsible for even 30% of slow play problems, let alone the 90% you've claimed.

 

It takes one slow group to slow down the entire course for the entire day.

 

I don't know what you have against head pros, but I ain't buyin' it.

post #164 of 457

There are five major factors that affect the pace of play on a golf course:

 

1. Management practices and policies

2. Player behavior

3. Player ability

4. Course set up and maintenance

5. Course design

 

Only one of these -- player ability -- is not (at least somewhat) subject to influence by the operator of the course and, unless we want to argue for a "golf license" system similar to some of the European and Asian countries, it just makes a lot more sense to go for the levers that you can actually pull.

post #165 of 457

This was too large to attach here, so I've hosted it externally. If you do want to understand the pace of play issue and the real options for improving the situation, it is a must read. PDF download link.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/q8wtmrqnrgx8sao/Pace_of_Play.pdf

post #166 of 457
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

Of course. If all of the players played more quickly, the round would not take five hours.

 

You've yet to demonstrate how the "management" is responsible for even 30% of slow play problems, let alone the 90% you've claimed.

 

It takes one slow group to slow down the entire course for the entire day.

 

I don't know what you have against head pros, but I ain't buyin' it.

I have nothing against resident pro's as long as they are doing their job. I frequesnt many courses in the North & South of the East coast during the year. If you play the Legacy @ Lakewood Ranch in Sarasota there's no problem. There's a staff plus some making your day enjoyable. 1st time I played there the round was 4:05 on a course we never seen before. Made for a great day.

Head over to Sarasota National and play. You get treated like cattle. A 5hr and 20 min round. The course didn't care. The starter sent up out as soon as we could hit which was behind a twosome 4 min apart. We started with 3 groups on the 1st tee.

 

You ever play Unicorn Park up North? A 9 hole great design. Now, you better bring lunch or dinner. A min 3-1/2hr 9 hole experience. I've seen at times 5 groups on the 3rd hole Par 3. The parking lot is full daily and forget about weekends. No tee times just walk up. The min wait is 2 hours to get out. There's a pro there and I've never see him.

 

My point here is; The operation of any golf course IS the responsibilty of the resident Pro & Golf Manager. I can give you many fine examples of where you couldn't play fast if you had to. IMO management has to get off their rear's and police the problems that exsist. Comercials with mangled bodies from drinking and driving do not stop people from doing so. The same with goofy comercials showing slow play. A waste of money. The only way to prevent drinking and driving is to police the roads. The same with slow play. The course must be policed or the effort put out is a waste of time.

 

The pro must be the leader in preventing slow play. And when he/she is walking around the clubhouse as if they are king crap nothing will ever get done.

post #167 of 457

I played at one course a long time ago that had signs at the tee box to tell you what pace you should be at on a given hole.  This was a very effective way to gauge whether you were behind or not.  I think it was every third hole if I remember correctly.  When you saw the sign, you did a quick calculation versus you start time and knew how you were doing.

 

Now this won't affect the donkey players who feel entitled, but any conscientious player would pick up the pace.

post #168 of 457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfer6760 View Post

I have nothing against resident pro's as long as they are doing their job.

 

You define "their job" very differently than they, the course owners, the majority of the players on the course, etc. do.

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfer6760 View Post

IMO management has to get off their rear's and police the problems that exsist.

The pro must be the leader in preventing slow play.

 

You do realize that those are far and away different than saying "management is 90% responsible!!!" don't you?

 

EVERYONE needs to play a part in preventing and stopping slow play. The super, the pro, the starter (which is NOT the responsibility of the head pro, never was, and never will be), the rangers, AND THE PLAYERS.

 

People today are too entitled and think that they can do whatever they want.

 

I played yesterday with two fellow TST members. We played a course two of them had never seen before. The rough was longer because it's been wet and they haven't been able to mow.

 

We played in 3:45. They walked, we drove.

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfer6760 View Post

The same with goofy comercials showing slow play.

 

Look, at this point, the commercials are better than the nothing which came before it. If customers start demanding faster play, golf courses will respond. To this point, golf courses have their hands tied because what may even be a silent majority hasn't spoken up. Golf courses at this point are afraid that they'll lose customers if they piss people off by making them skip holes or play more quickly or tell them that they're not entitled to take as long as they want.

 

Perhaps the silent majority will be incited to speak up by the commercials. If that happens, it's not a waste of money.

post #169 of 457
Quote:
Originally Posted by jshots View Post

Michael Breed had this wonderful tip today on how to improve pace of play called 1 trip to your bag per shot. Where Instead of taking the extra 2 seconds to put your club away after you hit, you should get in the cart with your club and put it away when you're getting ready for your next shot. He seemed to think it would save me 15 minutes per round. I think he is really on to something with that. (The post up to this point was 100% sarcasm)

 

I think the only way to approach pace of play is to drill it into young/new golfers heads. If they start slowing greens down to improve pace of play Im gonna be pissed. You know what would be cool would be to add an extra pin to each hole, color coded based on difficulty, kinda like tee boxes.

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that "tip" was ridiculous. I'm watching this guy and just laughing. Really? 15 minutes? And then he talks about it being the difference between a happy family and being in the doghouse..

post #170 of 457

Here's a few examples of where course management is causing slow play issues at my home course. 

 

  • First, the lead group sets the pace for everyone that follows if every group that follows is supposed to be directly behind the group in front of them.  Tee times at my home course on weekends are determined by member standing.  It's not a coincidence that that members with the longest standing are also the oldest and slowest players.  These old timers aren't bad golfers, but they are slow walking to their ball and have lost a lot of distance so they never finish in less than 4.5 hours, which means average round time is at least 4.5 hours on weekend.  
  • Our course has a building on the 7th hole that was mostly empty except for rest rooms.  New management decides it's the perfect place to offer snacks and beverages.  Guess what, the course now backs up at the 7th hole because everyone is stopping there not only to use the rest room but pick up some snacks and beverages.  This hole was already a bit of a backup because of the restrooms and fact that it's a short but tough par 4 that not many do better than par on. 
post #171 of 457

My home course (a semi-private golf club) in Canada is 7,000 yards long. The members' expectation is for everyone to play a four hour round and for the most part it is adhered to despite being situated on a hillside. The only time the pace of play gets to four and a half hours are later on Saturdays and Sundays when more green fee players are on the course. Weekends we have a marshall assist with keeping folks on time.

 

The interesting factor is, when compared to the US courses I play, is that 80% of our members walk. That's right we walk a four hour round vs ride a golf cart. Most of us believe golf is a better game when walked. When we spend the winter in the SoCal desert we note that rounds typically go five hours and more even though we have to use a cart. Part of the problem is modern golf course design that has long distances from greens to tees and the fact that golf carts allow the inclusion of steeper more extreme terrain and elevation changes but mostly we notice that players, particularly in tourist areas, play a slower round of golf in the US then we are used to at home and in the UK.

 

Whether it is a sense of golfer entitlement, lack of golf education and etiquette, modern golf course design, terrain and elevation variances, lack of course management or whatever, I'm not sure there's one reason but, generally speaking, slow play seems to be a problem at most of the courses I've played in California. 

 

For the above reason, I am totally behind anything that can be done to speed up the pace of play in the US, Canada or wherever. Golf is intended to be a game of motion and rhythm both of which disappear when spending ten minutes watching the golfer ahead of you choose a club or line up a putt. Ready golf is the name of the game. Let's all do our part to spread the word...."While we're young!"

post #172 of 457
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post

  • First, the lead group sets the pace for everyone that follows if every group that follows is supposed to be directly behind the group in front of them.  Tee times at my home course on weekends are determined by member standing.  It's not a coincidence that that members with the longest standing are also the oldest and slowest players.  These old timers aren't bad golfers, but they are slow walking to their ball and have lost a lot of distance so they never finish in less than 4.5 hours, which means average round time is at least 4.5 hours on weekend.

 

That's an example of both: the management could have done something, but the players themselves could play faster, too. Heck, the main thing management could do is say "We're giving you the same tee times for the next two weeks, but if you fail to get around in less than four hours one of those two times, you're done and we'll go to a lottery system."

 

I quit playing after 13 holes today (we'd hit almost four hours at that point) and the guy I was playing with and I skipped holes 15 and 16. I chipped and putted a little but that was it after 13.

 

Why?

 

We had two foursomes of women playing their weekly league matches ahead of us with a twosome in between. When they were on 12 or 13, there were no other groups on the back nine.

 

The second group of women didn't think to let the twosome through because "there was nowhere for them to go." The first group of women didn't notice or care that they were no longer able to see the people who teed off one spot ahead of them (ten minute spaced tee times - so you can't blame the pro there, and the women were playing the front-most tees).

 

You can blame the pro for not getting on these women, but you can also get on the women for BEING SO ****ING SLOW and not letting a bunch of groups through.

 

We could have joined the twosome in front of us, but to what end? We'd have finished five minutes sooner, and all four of us would have had to "make nice" with people playing different tees, etc. There was no upside in doing that.

 

FWIW, I blame the players AND the "management." It's not 90% one or the other, but they share the responsibility.

 

P.S. And John, people can play faster in carts than walking if they know what they're doing. Carts don't, in and of themselves, make people play more slowly. It still boils down to people being stupid and selfish. If you gave the club you're talking about a bunch of carts and required their use, my guess is pace of play would stay roughly the same. It may even drop over time if the members continued to be conscientious players.

post #173 of 457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that "tip" was ridiculous. I'm watching this guy and just laughing. Really? 15 minutes? And then he talks about it being the difference between a happy family and being in the doghouse..


Here, here! That spot on T.V. was the most idiotic thing I've seen in a long time.

post #174 of 457
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

You define "their job" very differently than they, the course owners, the majority of the players on the course, etc. do.

 

EVERYONE needs to play a part in preventing and stopping slow play. The super, the pro, the starter (which is NOT the responsibility of the head pro, never was, and never will be), the rangers, AND THE PLAYERS.

 

People today are too entitled and think that they can do whatever they want.

 

Look, at this point, the commercials are better than the nothing which came before it. If customers start demanding faster play, golf courses will respond. To this point, golf courses have their hands tied because what may even be a silent majority hasn't spoken up. Golf courses at this point are afraid that they'll lose customers if they piss people off by making them skip holes or play more quickly or tell them that they're not entitled to take as long as they want.

 

Perhaps the silent majority will be incited to speak up by the commercials. If that happens, it's not a waste of money.

OK iasac Let's back up a little then. Please define the job/duties of a resident & assistant pro at any private or public golf course. Help me out here.

 

I won't argue that the player is probably 80% of the problem cause they're the ones that are slow. I just have different views than you who should be policing the problem.

 

IMO if speed of play never becomes part of the rules of golf with a time limit to a round directly proportional to the slope rating then you're wasting your time. Until the USGA, PGA, LPGA and the R&A the cause you're after will be nothing more than an edicate issue.

 

It's iritating enough playing golf me against the course. I don't need to get more iritated at what other people are doing on the course. If that happens, then the game will really suck. If it's 3:45 or 5:15 you have to deal with it. I plan my day's accordingly. If I only have 3:45hrs to play then maybe I won't cause there's not enough time. I can't have my cake and eat it to.

post #175 of 457
Quote:
Originally Posted by trackster View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post

How is this still an argument? Slow play is caused by slow players. Period. How can you even argue to the contrary? If the person in front is playing at a reasonable speed, and everyone behind follows suit, how can it go slow? It can't. How is this rocket science? I don't get it...

 

Well that is kind of a "duh" statement.  The only thing is that there is more than one factor that causes players to play slow.  If a course wanted to speed up play they cannot place the burden on slow players, because I guarantee you that it will not be fixed.  All it takes is pace of play guidelines that are enforced by course management.  If you take 14 minutes per hole that is 4:12 pace, which to me is still ungodly slow.  However, it is still a lot better than the 5+ hour rounds we have heard of.  Have marshals on the course.  If your 14 minutes is up on the hole you pick up and move on, simple enough.

 

So by your reasoning, a 120 yard par 3 should take the same time to play as a 570 yard par 5?  You're certainly thinking in the right direction but it you can't manage it quite like that.  Most courses these days post a policy which averages somewhere between 14 and 15 minutes per hole.  thinking in terms of 15 makes it easy to judge where you stand.  If I'm on the 6th tee and it's 1:15 since I teed off, then we are on a 15 minute pace (5 x 15 = 75 mins = 1:15.  if we are there in 1:10, then we are on a 14 minute pace (the math is easy - just one minute less per hole), 1:05 and it's 13 minutes.  13 minutes per hole is 3:54 for 18 holes.  But that is an average.  It may actually take 10 minutes to play that par 3 and 16 minutes to play the par 5.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post

It seems like part of this topic/discussion disconnect is due to not distinguishing between cause and responsibility.

 

It should go without saying that players cause slow play.  If a player plays fast, then play isn't slow.  Duh.  The next part of the discussion revolves around how much responsibility is on the players to play faster, and how much responsibility the course & management have to supplement their ability to play fast.  

 

For me, the test is subjective but simple: if the player tries to play fast, and still is unable to, then that is the point where the course/management isn't sufficiently keeping up with their portion of the responsibility.  The problem is, in my opinion and experience, most slow players aren't being held back by the starter, marshal or course difficulty/layout, they simply aren't aware they're slow, or they don't really care enough to try and play faster.  

 

Having said that, there are some courses and managers that contribute to slow play, such as allowing 5somes, stacking front and back 9 tee times and/or not properly marshaling the course.

 

It's a partnership, but it needs to start with the course establishing a policy and committing to enforcing that policy.  Part of that commitment is education.  Tell the players what what is expected of them and help them to learn how to accomplish that goal.   Players are generally accepting of anything which is enforced universally.  They don't like the feeling that they are being singled out.  The starter needs to give the same speech to all players, even if they are regulars who play there ever other day, or the next group following will wonder why they have been targeted for enforcement when the guys in front of them get a pass.

 

Another consideration - not all courses are equal.  Therefore the time expected to play them shouldn't be a universal standard.  Some course are going to be inherently more difficult, and making the course play easier is not going to be an acceptable solution for management or players.  However, the principles of good pace of play are universal, and can be applied equally to any golf course.  Playing the right tees for your game, being ready to play (meaning ready to hit, not just starting to gather information) when it's your turn, exiting the green area smartly when putting is done, with bags and carts parked on the proper side, marking scores and stats and cleaning clubs while walking or driving, or during natural waiting periods. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jshots View Post

Michael Breed had this wonderful tip today on how to improve pace of play called 1 trip to your bag per shot. Where Instead of taking the extra 2 seconds to put your club away after you hit, you should get in the cart with your club and put it away when you're getting ready for your next shot. He seemed to think it would save me 15 minutes per round. I think he is really on to something with that. (The post up to this point was 100% sarcasm)

 

I think the only way to approach pace of play is to drill it into young/new golfers heads. If they start slowing greens down to improve pace of play Im gonna be pissed. You know what would be cool would be to add an extra pin to each hole, color coded based on difficulty, kinda like tee boxes.

 

I didn't see the bit so I don't know exactly what was said, but it's just one little facet of the process.  I clean my club after every shot, so I do it when I have to wait for the next player to hit.  Sometimes that's immediately after I play, other times I keep it in my hand until I've driven up to the area of the next to play.  A few extra seconds here and there, taken by doing a number of little tasks integral to the game, multiplied over 18 holes and 4 players can add up to many minutes wasted during the round.

 

This is the way that many of us who think we are fast players give the lie to that belief.  When someone makes a suggestion which we see as silly, we don't even consider the implications, we just ignore it.  And thus we become the problem we are trying to fix.  

 

Think about it.  You are waiting on the tee to play, and the last guy in the group in front of you hits his shot, then walks back to the cart, cleans the club, puts the head cover back on, then climbs in the cart and drives on.  That took him maybe 15 seconds, but during that 15 seconds you started steaming because you had already been waiting for 2 minutes, and now you had to stand there even longer while he screwed around with his clubs.  If it was me, I'd have jumped straight into the cart and been gone, cleaning and replacing the club when I next parked the cart.  Would you be happier with me or that guy in front of you?  If he is wasting that 15 seconds, then the chances are that he's got a couple of other irritating, time wasting mannerisms, each of which is nothing, but all together they add up to slowing down the course.  Then factor in 100 other players with similar idiosyncrasies and you have a slow golf course, even if all of those players think that they are playing ready golf.

 

You might just want to think about it.  I am, and I'm one of those who thinks he's a very fast player already.

post #176 of 457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfer6760 View Post

I won't argue that the player is probably 80% of the problem cause they're the ones that are slow.

 

Good. Then I and others have made our point as you are clearly reversing your opinion that 90% of the problem is the management or head pro.

post #177 of 457
Quote:
Originally Posted by jshots View Post

Michael Breed had this wonderful tip today on how to improve pace of play called 1 trip to your bag per shot. Where Instead of taking the extra 2 seconds to put your club away after you hit, you should get in the cart with your club and put it away when you're getting ready for your next shot. He seemed to think it would save me 15 minutes per round. I think he is really on to something with that. (The post up to this point was 100% sarcasm)

I'm with fourputt on this one ... Michael Breed IS onto something here.  (Pretty sure he's assuming that people are cleaing their clubs as they're putting them away too)  Granted, I'm not so sure it would save up to 15 minutes per round, and it also only really applies to the last of the foursome ... because the first 3 guys can take care of that without holding anybody up.  But it's still good practice, and all those little things do add up to something.

 

I am reminded of a construction management class I took in college where, to be efficient, everything boils down to the "critical path."  Don't wait to do things that can be done while other things are getting done because that all adds time.  Get distances and choose clubs while others are hitting, read your putts while others are reading theirs, clean you clubs while the cart is moving (unless you are the driver, obviously), write scores down at the next tee, etc, etc, etc.  So much stuff can be done when it's not your turn to hit such that when it is your turn to hit, that is all that's left to do.

 

Side note:  Another good thing regarding the policy of always being aware of where the next tee is and dumping your bag there ... I have never in my life (knock on wood) left a wedge behind because of this practice.  If I have to chip on to the green, afterwards (while somebody else is reading their putt) and assuming my bag is too far away, I'm dumping my wedge(s) in that same line.  Works if you're in a cart too.  I always dump my wedge(s) in line between the hole and the cart.  It's hard to forget your clubs when you have to step over them to move on. :)

 

EDIT:  My side note seems out of place because I had a piece in the previous paragraph about a Charlie Rymer commercial where he's calling his friend a knucklehead because he kept leaving his bag at the front of the green, but then I removed it. :)

post #178 of 457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

I didn't see the bit so I don't know exactly what was said, but it's just one little facet of the process.  I clean my club after every shot, so I do it when I have to wait for the next player to hit.  Sometimes that's immediately after I play, other times I keep it in my hand until I've driven up to the area of the next to play.  A few extra seconds here and there, taken by doing a number of little tasks integral to the game, multiplied over 18 holes and 4 players can add up to many minutes wasted during the round.

 

This is the way that many of us who think we are fast players give the lie to that belief.  When someone makes a suggestion which we see as silly, we don't even consider the implications, we just ignore it.  And thus we become the problem we are trying to fix.  

 

Think about it.  You are waiting on the tee to play, and the last guy in the group in front of you hits his shot, then walks back to the cart, cleans the club, puts the head cover back on, then climbs in the cart and drives on.  That took him maybe 15 seconds, but during that 15 seconds you started steaming because you had already been waiting for 2 minutes, and now you had to stand there even longer while he screwed around with his clubs.  If it was me, I'd have jumped straight into the cart and been gone, cleaning and replacing the club when I next parked the cart.  Would you be happier with me or that guy in front of you?  If he is wasting that 15 seconds, then the chances are that he's got a couple of other irritating, time wasting mannerisms, each of which is nothing, but all together they add up to slowing down the course.  Then factor in 100 other players with similar idiosyncrasies and you have a slow golf course, even if all of those players think that they are playing ready golf.

 

You might just want to think about it.  I am, and I'm one of those who thinks he's a very fast player already.

 

Maybe Breeds head was in the right place, but the fact it was on his show was ridiculous. He could have suggested 100 other things that are far better for time saving than what he suggested.

 

I literally put my club away as I am still moving to the seat in my cart, so his suggestion would save me no time. If you clean your clubs, its going to take the same amount of time whether you do it now or later. Maybe you wouldn't have to wait to hit your tee shot, but that means you're gonna have to wait an extra 15 seconds on your approach shot or on the next tee. IMO the only solution to that is to quit cleaning your clubs. Moving things around that take time may help your efficiency somewhat, but in the end the best way to save time is to either quit doing things that take more time, or do them faster.

 

I was indoctrinated into good pace of play by my golf pro father when I was 8 yrs old, and I think that is the best way to get people playing more quickly. It needs to be known that that is a very important part of the game the second people step on to the course for the first time. Everyone should be playing ready golf and keeping up with the group ahead of them.

post #179 of 457

Gentlemen...

 

Golf is a game, a difficult game. 15 minutes per hole (4.5 hrs for 18) is NOT excessive! Yes, it can be frustrating to be stuck behind someone who has no clue as to etiquette (let alone skill). Live with it! Or, maybe help to turn the hacker into a gentleman golfer.

 

How many courses could survive on only the fast track, self proclaimed "serious" golfer. VERY FEW! You want to exclude the recreational golfer... go join an exclusive club and pay the dues necessary to support such. Then whine and cry about those who have the cash (but not the desire) to play the game according to your elitist standards. At least there you will have the argument that you have paid an outlandish sum to play at your ridiculous expectations.

 

If you feel you are so superior take a look at the typical time a professional round takes.

 

I for one would rather play a round with a hack with a sense of the spirit of the game than some damn fool who thinks that speed is more important than the joy of the game!

post #180 of 457
Quote:
Originally Posted by jshots View Post

 

Maybe Breeds head was in the right place, but the fact it was on his show was ridiculous. He could have suggested 100 other things that are far better for time saving than what he suggested.

 

I literally put my club away as I am still moving to the seat in my cart, so his suggestion would save me no time. If you clean your clubs, its going to take the same amount of time whether you do it now or later. Maybe you wouldn't have to wait to hit your tee shot, but that means you're gonna have to wait an extra 15 seconds on your approach shot or on the next tee. IMO the only solution to that is to quit cleaning your clubs. Moving things around that take time may help your efficiency somewhat, but in the end the best way to save time is to either quit doing things that take more time, or do them faster.

 

 

This is pure bull, and looks more like someone in denial trying to make excuses (not saying you are, but that's what it looks like when you shoot down every suggestion).  Now or later for cleaning or replacing a club is a valid decision.  If I'm the last to hit, I wait until I get to the next spot where I am probably waiting on a playing companion or the group in front of my, then I clean and replace the club and start getting ready for the next shot.   If I still have to wait for another in my group to play, I clean and replace immediately.  Either way it's absorbed into the normal idle time that is part of every round.  It takes no time at all as far as the length of the round is concerned.

 

 

Quote:

I was indoctrinated into good pace of play by my golf pro father when I was 8 yrs old, and I think that is the best way to get people playing more quickly. It needs to be known that that is a very important part of the game the second people step on to the course for the first time. Everyone should be playing ready golf and keeping up with the group ahead of them.

 

A nice sentiment, but we can't all step into a time machine and go back to our childhoods.  I didn't really start to play golf until I was in my mid 20's, and didn't get enthusiastic about the game until my 30's.  My parents didn't play, nobody in my family except me played.  I've always been the type of person who wants to learn all he can about the things I'm passionate about, so I made a point of leaning more than just how to play.  However, you can't expect someone who has never even heard the term "ready golf" to understand anything about how to accomplish it.  Tell him to "Play ready golf" and you'll just get a dumb look.  There is a lot that goes into that simple phrase that most players never even think about, and one small part of the process is the club handling I just discussed above.  

 

When experienced players poo-poo any ideas put forth to try and help the situation, it does nothing to help the beginners learn those little tips which comprise that process.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CR McDivot View Post

Gentlemen...

 

Golf is a game, a difficult game. 15 minutes per hole (4.5 hrs for 18) is NOT excessive! Yes, it can be frustrating to be stuck behind someone who has no clue as to etiquette (let alone skill). Live with it! Or, maybe help to turn the hacker into a gentleman golfer.

 

How many courses could survive on only the fast track, self proclaimed "serious" golfer. VERY FEW! You want to exclude the recreational golfer... go join an exclusive club and pay the dues necessary to support such. Then whine and cry about those who have the cash (but not the desire) to play the game according to your elitist standards. At least there you will have the argument that you have paid an outlandish sum to play at your ridiculous expectations.

 

If you feel you are so superior take a look at the typical time a professional round takes.

 

I for one would rather play a round with a hack with a sense of the spirit of the game than some damn fool who thinks that speed is more important than the joy of the game!

 

 

You really don't get it do you?  If that is truly your opinion, then you are part of the problem.  I've played plenty of public, even municipal courses, where 4½ hours is unacceptable, and the ranger will be on your ass if you play at such a lethargic pace.  It definitely is excessive for most public courses.  

 

My usual fourball can easily play in 4 hours when nobody is holding us up, and that includes 2 of us at low double digit handicaps and 2 who work hard to shoot in the 90's.  We play by the rules, we play ready golf, we never rush, we never feel hurried.  It's not rocket science.

 

By the way, I'm a Colorado golfer too - home course for 30 years was Foothills in Jeffco.

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