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Two Fantastic Basketball Docos. - Page 2

post #19 of 38

Picking a Top 3 in any sport is difficult. Golf is no different. Nicklaus, Palmer, Jones, Hogan, Snead, Woods, etc. You have to leave out so many greats. Basketball is no different. So many great players. Lebron will be a part of that discussion though. He's a hell of a player and I'm not a big fan. But there is no denying the guy has as abnormal amount of talent that puts him in the "Great Players" discussion. 

 

With that said, when he and Carmelo were still in high school, I said Carmelo would be a better pro player... so shows what I know. Hahaha

post #20 of 38

I'm neither a huge Jordan or LeBron fan. Here are career statistics for both through 10 years:

 

  Regular Regular Playoff Playoff
Category Jordan Lebron Jordan Lebron
         

Games played

684 765 121 138

Games started

673 764 121 138
Minutes/Game 37.74 30.9 42.26 43.1
FG% 50.17% 51.70% 48.95% 47.2%
3 Pt % 29.24% 39.7% 39.41% 32.2%
FT % 77.29% 72.4% 84.18% 74.9%
Rebounds/Game 6.17 6.6 6.62 8.6
Assists/Game 5.6 6.0 6.56 6.7
Steals/Game 2.59 1.3 2.33 1.7
Blocks/Game 1.01 .2 1.13 .9
Points/Game 31.02 25.1 34.21 28.1
Championships 3 2 3 2
Finals MVP 3 2 3 2

 

My (not very great) analysis is this: the main trend that I notice is that Jordan was better in the playoffs in nearly every category. LeBron is better in some categories. Jordan was a much better 3 pt and FT shooter in the playoffs than LeBron is (to date).

 

Overall, numbers are pretty similar. Unless LeBron can duplicate, Jordan will be remembered as the better player because he 1) won 6 championships and 2) made very very memorable plays to win those championships. The world of sports is littered with good players that are remembered as greater than they were because of special moments. Stats alone won't take LeBron past Jordan.

post #21 of 38

Playoffs say it all. Everyone talks about how LeBron had more skills and was a better facilitator than Jordan...but the stats don't lie here.

 

LeBron has more rebounds (size), but Jordan only has .14 less assists per game, and trumps LeBron in steals, blocks, points, percentages, and most importantly...championships.

 

I mean, just look at how Jordan elevates his game in the playoffs. His 3 point % jumps up over 10%, while LeBron's goes down 5.5%. Clutch is in the jump shot, not the layup or dunk.

 

I can think of one playoff game where LeBron hit a game winner. And it was a game 2 at home...they would go on to lose the series anyway. With the game on the line, who would you rather have the ball? Jordan, or James? Hell, I'd take Kobe well before James in that situation...

post #22 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post

Playoffs say it all. Everyone talks about how LeBron had more skills and was a better facilitator than Jordan...but the stats don't lie here.

 

LeBron has more rebounds (size), but Jordan only has .14 less assists per game, and trumps LeBron in steals, blocks, points, percentages, and most importantly...championships.

 

I mean, just look at how Jordan elevates his game in the playoffs. His 3 point % jumps up over 10%, while LeBron's goes down 5.5%. Clutch is in the jump shot, not the layup or dunk.

 

I can think of one playoff game where LeBron hit a game winner. And it was a game 2 at home...they would go on to lose the series anyway. With the game on the line, who would you rather have the ball? Jordan, or James? Hell, I'd take Kobe well before James in that situation...

 

Maybe. But I think the OP's original question was: 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shorty View Post

Is LeBron the most powerfully gifted and exciting athlete on the planet?

 

I think the answer is "possibly" and in major American sports, the answer is "resoundingly yes". There's a good argument for Messi to top that list. The things he's doing right now aren't human.

 

post #23 of 38
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by geauxforbroke View Post

 

Maybe. But I think the OP's original question was: 

 

Is LeBron the most powerfully gifted and exciting athlete on the planet?

 

I think the answer is "possibly" and in major American sports, the answer is "resoundingly yes". There's a good argument for Messi to top that list. The things he's doing right now aren't human.

 

 

I'm with you on Messi,

But the thing about LeBron is his physical presence and raw power. Just an intimidating powerhouse. And the swagger to go with it.

Not normally my cup of tea, but I'd love to be courtside if he was playing (unless Justin Bieber's bodyguard was standing in front of me). 

The obvious irony is that Messi is (please understand this in the context of his physical limitations and underdevelopment - growth hormone deficiency) physically the absolute opposite of Lebron who works miracles with unbelivebale talent and has overcome a disability that makes him one of sports true superstars.

The fact that he got the chances he deserved is testament to the skill of scouts, coaches and spotters who overlooked his disability and saw the genius within.

post #24 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shorty View Post

I'm with you on Messi,

But the thing about LeBron is his physical presence and raw power. Just an intimidating powerhouse. And the swagger to go with it.

Not normally my cup of tea, but I'd love to be courtside if he was playing (unless Justin Bieber's bodyguard was standing in front of me). 

The obvious irony is that Messi is (please understand this in the context of his physical limitations and underdevelopment - growth hormone deficiency) physically the absolute opposite of Lebron who works miracles with unbelivebale talent and has overcome a disability that makes him one of sports true superstars.

The fact that he got the chances he deserved is testament to the skill of scouts, coaches and spotters who overlooked his disability and saw the genius within.

 

I understand the comparison. LeBron is so impressive because he's built like a defensive end but moves like a shooting guard. Messi is probably more skilled in his sport than LeBron, but doesn't have the physical advantages than LeBron does.  

post #25 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by geauxforbroke View Post

 

I understand the comparison. LeBron is so impressive because he's built like a defensive end but moves like a shooting guard. Messi is probably more skilled in his sport than LeBron, but doesn't have the physical advantages than LeBron does.  

 

Yeah, that's the thing with LeBron...besides his passing skills, if he was even a little smaller, he'd be a good player. No more, no less. He's not the best jump shooter, he's not the most clutch player, not the best rebounder, or even the best shot blocker. He just bowls people over going to the rim so it's easy for him to score a lot of points and get assists as they start to crowd the lane. 

 

He's the best in the game now because of his size, strength, and speed, and the fact that he's good at everything...not great, but good at every facet of the game. Mix that with his power, speed, and size, and that's why he's so hard to play against. If LeBron was Jordan's size, he wouldn't even be a top 10 player in the NBA.

post #26 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post

If LeBron was Jordan's size, he wouldn't even be a top 10 player in the NBA.

 

He's only 2" taller than Jordan (according to their listed heights). The fact that he's heavier is due to his working out and getting into the shape he is. The impressive thing is not that he is as big and strong as he is. The impressive thing is that he's still so athletic.

post #27 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by geauxforbroke View Post

 

He's only 2" taller than Jordan (according to their listed heights). The fact that he's heavier is due to his working out and getting into the shape he is. The impressive thing is not that he is as big and strong as he is. The impressive thing is that he's still so athletic.

 

That's all genetics though. Jordan didn't have the frame for that. LeBron at 16 was bigger than Jordan at 28. And 2 inches at that level makes a huge difference. LeBron standing still with his arms raised has probably 4" on Jordan. And the athleticism with the size is genetic, he's just a physical freak of nature.

post #28 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post

 

That's all genetics though. Jordan didn't have the frame for that. LeBron at 16 was bigger than Jordan at 28. And 2 inches at that level makes a huge difference. LeBron standing still with his arms raised has probably 4" on Jordan. And the athleticism with the size is genetic, he's just a physical freak of nature.

 

I grew up a Jordan guy. I remember people calling young Jordan a ball hog and he didnt make his teamates better. Do you think Jordan in his early 20's could take a team with Larry Hughes and Anderson Vara-whatever to the NBA Finals? No way! Also, Jordan didnt develop a reliable jumper until the middle of his career, when some of his athleticism started to leave him. Im so over the Jordan vs Lebron debate because it's not fair. They are totally different players. Kobe is more Jordan, and LeBron is more Magic with the Karl Malone body type, with a quick first step. Jordan won Defensive Player of the year a few times but I dont remember Jordan ever guarding Pg's all the way down to Center like LeBron can. To me LeBron shouldnt aspire to be the next anybody he's already the first LeBron. And to be fair, the way he left Cleveland was BUSH-LEAGUE, but if thats his biggest mistake then Im cool with that. (He had every right to leave, but the TV show was a horrible choice) But Cleveland fans have every right to wanna see him lose going forward.
post #29 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonTheSavage View Post

 

I grew up a Jordan guy. I remember people calling young Jordan a ball hog and he didnt make his teamates better. Do you think Jordan in his early 20's could take a team with Larry Hughes and Anderson Vara-whatever to the NBA Finals? No way! Also, Jordan didnt develop a reliable jumper until the middle of his career, when some of his athleticism started to leave him. Im so over the Jordan vs Lebron debate because it's not fair. They are totally different players. Kobe is more Jordan, and LeBron is more Magic with the Karl Malone body type, with a quick first step. Jordan won Defensive Player of the year a few times but I dont remember Jordan ever guarding Pg's all the way down to Center like LeBron can. To me LeBron shouldnt aspire to be the next anybody he's already the first LeBron. And to be fair, the way he left Cleveland was BUSH-LEAGUE, but if thats his biggest mistake then Im cool with that. (He had every right to leave, but the TV show was a horrible choice) But Cleveland fans have every right to wanna see him lose going forward.

 

First and foremost, Anderson Vara-whatever is awesome, and when he's healthy...he's a huge asset. I bet LeBron would take him in Miami in a second. 

 

Second, LeBron keeps bringing up the comparison. He's calling his game 7 sealing shot an "MJ moment" which is BS. First, you don't get to self-proclaim MJ moments, second, he hit a shot with the lead...Jordan hit plenty when it was either make the shot or go home. Not even close. If anything, Ray Allen had an MJ moment in game 6.

 

I agree with the Magic comparisons as well.

post #30 of 38

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonTheSavage View Post

 

Im so over the Jordan vs Lebron debate because it's not fair. They are totally different players....To me LeBron shouldnt aspire to be the next anybody he's already the first LeBron. 

 

Good point. It's really unfair to a player to be labelled "The Next _____", especially when they don't play the same type of game.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonTheSavage View Post

And to be fair, the way he left Cleveland was BUSH-LEAGUE, but if thats his biggest mistake then Im cool with that. (He had every right to leave, but the TV show was a horrible choice)

 

Wasn't the TV show a charity thing? If so, I can appreciate that he was trying to do something good, but it certainly came off as a media stunt. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonTheSavage View Post

But Cleveland fans have every right to wanna see him lose going forward.

 

I can't agree with that. He gave Cleveland 100% for 7 years. At the end of his contract, he chose to move on. Keep in mind that he had absolutely zero say in where he went when he got drafted. Had he tried to force a trade before his contract ran out, or somehow tried to leave the team, then I would say Cleveland fans would have a gripe with him. As it is, I don't see a reason why Cleveland fans should have behaved the way they did, nor should they wish ill upon his career.

post #31 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post

 

First and foremost, Anderson Vara-whatever is awesome, and when he's healthy...he's a huge asset. I bet LeBron would take him in Miami in a second. 

 

Second, LeBron keeps bringing up the comparison. He's calling his game 7 sealing shot an "MJ moment" which is BS. First, you don't get to self-proclaim MJ moments, second, he hit a shot with the lead...Jordan hit plenty when it was either make the shot or go home. Not even close. If anything, Ray Allen had an MJ moment in game 6.

 

I agree with the Magic comparisons as well.

 

Bosh > Varajeo only because Bosh (when his head is right) can hit a jumper to open up driving lanes for him and Wade. Varajeo is definitely tougher and a better defender. I kind of wish LeBron would stop with the Jordan stuff too. But he grew up idolizing the guy so I give him a pass on that. Even though I did cringe a bit when I read his Jordan Moment quote, I get it though. Prime example anytime I accidentally hit a low bullet type shot off the tee I think to myself thats my Tiger Stinger! LOL
post #32 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by geauxforbroke View Post

Wasn't the TV show a charity thing? If so, I can appreciate that he was trying to do something good, but it certainly came off as a media stunt. 

 

 

I can't agree with that. He gave Cleveland 100% for 7 years. At the end of his contract, he chose to move on. Keep in mind that he had absolutely zero say in where he went when he got drafted. Had he tried to force a trade before his contract ran out, or somehow tried to leave the team, then I would say Cleveland fans would have a gripe with him. As it is, I don't see a reason why Cleveland fans should have behaved the way they did, nor should they wish ill upon his career.

 

They made it into a charity thing, but that wasn't the original intention. It was the LeBron narcissism show. He had to have an hour long special to shit on his hometown fans.

 

And disagree all you want, we have every right. If he would have just left, fine. But to have a national hour long special to publicize you leaving and "taking your talents" *barf* somewhere else, no...the dude can go to hell as far as I'm concerned. Not to mention how he gave up on his team in the playoffs his final year. Pathetic. If he suffered a career ending injury tomorrow, I'd throw a party.

post #33 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by geauxforbroke View Post

 

Good point. It's really unfair to a player to be labelled "The Next _____", especially when they don't play the same type of game.

 

 

Wasn't the TV show a charity thing? If so, I can appreciate that he was trying to do something good, but it certainly came off as a media stunt. 

 

 

I can't agree with that. He gave Cleveland 100% for 7 years. At the end of his contract, he chose to move on. Keep in mind that he had absolutely zero say in where he went when he got drafted. Had he tried to force a trade before his contract ran out, or somehow tried to leave the team, then I would say Cleveland fans would have a gripe with him. As it is, I don't see a reason why Cleveland fans should have behaved the way they did, nor should they wish ill upon his career.

 

I've never been to Cleveland but I do know Cleveland fans go HARD for their sports teams and players. If I were advising him, I would've had him inform Dan Gilbert hours before the TV show aired that he would not be returning. They shouldnt have found out with the rest of us where he was going. DO I think "some" Cleveland fans go overboard? Absolutely but I think Chicago fans wouldnve done the same if MJ would've left and won Titles with Magic in LA
post #34 of 38

Just as a reference...

 

Jim Thome, Manny Ramirez, Cliff Lee, C.C. Sabathia...

 

Just a few BIG TIME players that left Cleveland. I have no problems with any of them and wish them the best of luck.

post #35 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post

 

They made it into a charity thing, but that wasn't the original intention. It was the LeBron narcissism show. He had to have an hour long special to shit on his hometown fans.

 

And disagree all you want, we have every right. If he would have just left, fine. But to have a national hour long special to publicize you leaving and "taking your talents" *barf* somewhere else, no...the dude can go to hell as far as I'm concerned. Not to mention how he gave up on his team in the playoffs his final year. Pathetic. If he suffered a career ending injury tomorrow, I'd throw a party.

 

Question for you...............who do Cleveland Fans dislike most LeBron or Art Modell? Wouldnt those Ravens titles be Browns titles?
post #36 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonTheSavage View Post

 

Question for you...............who do Cleveland Fans dislike most LeBron or Art Modell? Wouldnt those Ravens titles be Browns titles?

 

Art Modell, no question. 

 

For a couple reasons...Cleveland is, and will always be a football town. And he flat out took football from us. We had nothing for 4-5 years. Winning a super bowl 7 years later just made it even worse.

 

LeBron, as much as I can't stand him, didn't take the Cavs from us. I still watch and root for them. They suck...so what? I'm from Cleveland, I'm used to terrible sports teams...

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