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Casey Martin booted from cart while watching U.S. Junior Amateur qualifier - Page 3

post #37 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadMan View Post

 

That all is a very good point, and one I hadn't thought of. I guess I need to re-engage the cynical side of my brain.

 

On the other hand, I understand Martin's reaction completely. He called ahead and asked to get a cart. He had probably prepared for the tournament with the thought in his mind that he would have a cart to ride around in. He probably has a bunch of stuff with him to scout kids (e.g., notebook, binder, etc.). And now, he's being forced out of the cart despite clearing it before hand with someone (obviously, the wrong person, but still). No one knows if he was even offered the scooter - it sounds like the USGA offered to dump him at a spot and leave him there. All this after dealing with the stigma of being handicapped and having to file a lawsuit to be able to play the game he loves. I would be pissed if I were in his shoes, and rightfully so.

If he wasn't "disabled" he'd have to carry all the stuff (notebook, binder) while he walked so to be fair to everyone that's recruiting he shouldn't have anything in the cart that wouldn't be manageable to walk 18 holes with. 

 

I don't get why anyone feels the need to make an exception for him, why should he receive preferential treatment over any other disabled person?  Let's not forget that he's able to walk, just not 18 holes.  I know some really disabled people that can't walk from their home to their car, so I get annoyed when actors and athletes attempt to use their celebrity to garner special treatment. 

post #38 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSchott View Post

2) if the USGA really wants to steel themselves for another fight about the Americans with Disabilities Act, this cannot end well for them. Terrible idea to once again be in the public eye on this issue. We know that Martin is not afraid to take this further.

 

Hardly. The plan they had in place (scooters) complied just fine.

post #39 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post

If he wasn't "disabled" he'd have to carry all the stuff (notebook, binder) while he walked so to be fair to everyone that's recruiting he shouldn't have anything in the cart that wouldn't be manageable to walk 18 holes with. 

 

I don't get why anyone feels the need to make an exception for him, why should he receive preferential treatment over any other disabled person?  Let's not forget that he's able to walk, just not 18 holes.  I know some really disabled people that can't walk from their home to their car, so I get annoyed when actors and athletes attempt to use their celebrity to garner special treatment. 

 

On the first bit, sorry, I wasn't clear. I was more saying that he was planning for a cart rather than a scooter. I would imagine that some scooters don't really have enough room to do much more than carry a person. I don't know for sure. And I'm not sure if he was even offered a scooter - from the articles I've read, the USGA offered to take him to a spot and leave him there, which I think we can all agree is not a good solution.

post #40 of 49
Having seen Lindsey Vonn taken around by security in a traditional cart makes me wonder what she rode in at Merion? And if it was a regular cart, perhaps Casey needs to call in threats against himself to get the regular cart deal, albeit with a chauffeur
post #41 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

Hardly. The plan they had in place (scooters) complied just fine.

Do you happen to know that this venue had scooters? That to me is the unanswered question. If so then there is no issue for me.
post #42 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSchott View Post


Do you happen to know that this venue had scooters? That to me is the unanswered question. If so then there is no issue for me.

 

Yes they did, he was offered and refused.

Quote:
Martin said he had spoken with officials in advance about his need to ride. He was given a normal-sized cart but was stopped five or six holes along. The USGA says he was offered alternate transportation to specified locations but declined.

 

http://blogs.golf.com/presstent/2013/06/officials-boot-casey-martin-from-cart-at-us-junior-am-event.html#ixzz2XrWZj6VJ

post #43 of 49

Alternate transportation to specified locations does not mean he got offered a scooter. It sounds more they like offered to drop him off somewhere and leave him there. Maybe there were scooters available, but no where has specifically said that.

 

The original Golf Week article about this says that this exact same thing happened the week beforehand, and there were no scooters available for him to use. I'd think there's a reasonable chance this was the case this week, too.

post #44 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadMan View Post

Alternate transportation to specified locations does not mean he got offered a scooter. It sounds more they like offered to drop him off somewhere and leave him there. Maybe there were scooters available, but no where has specifically said that.

The original Golf Week article about this says that this exact same thing happened the week beforehand, and there were no scooters available for him to use. I'd think there's a reasonable chance this was the case this week, too.

This is how I see it as well.
post #45 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

There was a logical reason - he was using a cart while only scooters were permitted. You may not like the reason, but to say there's "no logical reason" is wrong.

 


 

Why do you care if it was unsatisfactory? It was the same alternative given to all. He was offered the same things afforded to others who were not capable of walking.

 

 

 

That's bull and you know it.

 

 

 

And you've run thousands of events, like the USGA, right?

 

d2_doh.gif

 

And even if that WAS the only reason (it's not), it seems like a good enough one to me. Regular carts can't fit through everywhere that a scooter type cart can.

Erik, I think you are confusing having a reason with having a reason that makes good sense (i.e. a logical reason). 

 

I guarantee that if you were in Martin's shoes, had a golf cart and then (hypothetically - it doesn't appear this was even offered to him, just a ride and drop-off) were told to take an oldster's scooter instead, as you were trying to recruit teenage athletes, you would very much feel disadvantaged and put in an embarrassing position, for no good reason.

 

I guarantee that no USGA official takes a scooter around one of their events - I saw a number of them on golf carts at last year's USWO.  Now maybe a cart would get in the way at Merion two weeks ago, but no way would some minor event like this one have more than a few dozen spectators per hole - it was a non-issue at the event that Martin attended and whoever took the cart away from Martin was doing the same as issuing a speeding ticket for going 57 in a 55 zone.. 

post #46 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisguy View Post

Erik, I think you are confusing having a reason with having a reason that makes good sense (i.e. a logical reason).

 

Nope. I just can't do more to speculate as to what their "logical reason" is. I could guess, but just ask them. I'm sure they have a good reason.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisguy View Post

I guarantee that if you were in Martin's shoes, had a golf cart and then (hypothetically - it doesn't appear this was even offered to him, just a ride and drop-off) were told to take an oldster's scooter instead, as you were trying to recruit teenage athletes, you would very much feel disadvantaged and put in an embarrassing position, for no good reason.

 

That's a stupid thing to guarantee given that I'd have read the rules first, known what was allowed, made arrangements for the proper form of transportation, and so on.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisguy View Post

I guarantee that no USGA official takes a scooter around one of their events

 

So? They're officials. They're running the whole event. Martin is a spectator.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisguy View Post

Now maybe a cart would get in the way at Merion two weeks ago, but no way would some minor event like this one have more than a few dozen spectators per hole - it was a non-issue at the event that Martin attended and whoever took the cart away from Martin was doing the same as issuing a speeding ticket for going 57 in a 55 zone.. 

 

That's your opinion. I disagree.

 

As for the reasons, again, ask the USGA what their reasons are. I'm sure they can tell you, if you are even able to reach the appropriate level.

post #47 of 49
Quote:

 

This is not supported by the cited article - if anything, it suggests that the accommodation offered was a drop-off service.  It should be obvious to anyone that for a college coach at a tournament for scouting and recruiting purposes, a drop-off service would not be adequate to see more than a few shots and would be insufficient to assess the golfers at the tournament.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadMan View Post

Alternate transportation to specified locations does not mean he got offered a scooter. It sounds more they like offered to drop him off somewhere and leave him there. Maybe there were scooters available, but no where has specifically said that.

 

The original Golf Week article about this says that this exact same thing happened the week beforehand, and there were no scooters available for him to use. I'd think there's a reasonable chance this was the case this week, too.

 

This seems the most likely scenario and if it is indeed the case, then someone from the USGA was probably targeting Martin - there is nothing whatsoever to be gained by being a rules gunner in that circumstance, a tournament that could have no more than moderate attendance where a cart would not cause issues with paths and spectator flow or viewing.  Make no mistake about it, many golfers got very upset with Martin and the US Supreme Court decision stating that walking was not an integral part of the game and still have negative feelings toward him; ironically, I bet a lot of those people typically ride a cart when they play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

I guarantee that if you were in Martin's shoes, had a golf cart and then (hypothetically - it doesn't appear this was even offered to him, just a ride and drop-off) were told to take an oldster's scooter instead, as you were trying to recruit teenage athletes, you would very much feel disadvantaged and put in an embarrassing position, for no good reason.


 

That's a stupid thing to guarantee given that I'd have read the rules first, known what was allowed, made arrangements for the proper form of transportation, and so on.

 

On the internet, everyone's got perfect 20/20 hindsight, foresight, judgment, etc...., don't they?  Wouldn't we all have prevented 9/11 if we were the director of the CIA or FBI at the time?  Martin called in advance, so he seems to have made arrangements - how do you know that he didn't simply ask for the tournament to accommodate him and the cart is what they offered?  Do you know how many times previously he had been accommodated with a cart and may have had a reasonable expectation that that trend would continue?  If you had previously been accommodated with a golf cart, you certainly would prefer that to a scooter or a drop-off service.

 

Additionally, I think you and several other people on this thread are losing sight of the fact that Martin was very likely not similarly situated to any other handicapped spectator at the tournament.  He was not there as a fan of the game or as the fan of a particular golfer - he was there to analyze and recruit potential players for his university.  He was doing his job.  He should have been accorded greater privileges than an average spectator.  After all, there are people at any athletic event who have greater access and privileges than ordinary fans - we've all seen them:  they are members of the media who are wearing press badges and they are given the extra privileges because their work at the athletic event helps to promote the sport.  Why should it be any different for a college golf coach?  Recruiting talented junior golfers for a college golf team promotes the game of golf in America, particularly talented home-grown talent in the face of all of the foreign players snapping up golf scholarships.

 

I don't know the exact wording of the USGA rule about handicapped accommodations, but it seems to me that it could contain something to the effect of "or shall provide such further accommodations as the tournament director deems appropriate for the event" and it would address everyone's interests.  If attendance is sparse, let people ride carts.  If the course is jam-packed to the gills with spectators, let that factor be taken into consideration.

post #48 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisguy View Post

On the internet, everyone's got perfect 20/20 hindsight, foresight, judgment, etc...., don't they?

 

Nice try, but that doesn't change the fact that your "guarantee" about me would be completely wrong.

post #49 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSchott View Post


Do you happen to know that this venue had scooters? That to me is the unanswered question. If so then there is no issue for me.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/golf/2013/06/25/casey-martin-golf-cart-oregon-us-golf-association/2458135/

 

In a statement, the USGA said, "The unfortunate situation at the U.S. Junior qualifier stems from a misunderstanding over the USGA Cart Policy at our championship events. We regret that this misunderstanding may have caused Casey an inconvenience, but it certainly was unintentional. We have extended to Casey accommodations that we offer all disabled spectators at our championships."

 

He apparently was offered accommodations and he declined.

 

I can tell you, from personal experience, that the USGA has very strict rules about the use of carts and disabled scooters at their events, and where they can go. I was marshaling at the US Open at Merion and the USGA was very firm about where the carts could go, and where the scoooters with disabled spectators could go. The scooters were only allowed where spectators were allowed. It wasn't my call and sometimes I felt like a real prick because, in some places, the cart paths were much easier fo the scooters to navigate. But the scooters were not allowed, as it was dangerous for them with all the official cart traffic around our hole.

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