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What is your opinion on the "Breakfast Ball"? - Page 10

post #163 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

Are you sure that it isn't because your fivesome is holding up the rest of the course while never coming close to keeping pace with the group in front of you? e2_whistling.gif

The was a foursome that waited until the group in front of them cleared the green before teeing off, on all holes. Not sure about the par 5s.

I only caught this when our hole intersected theirs at a snack shack. I wondered why play was so slow that day.

On top of this, they had one or two of them that hit two ball provisionals every tee shot, and drove about 180-220 yards on average.

I briefly talked to the course ambassador, and she was visibly upset by this. She was the one who told me that they did this every single hole.
post #164 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

 

No speculation.  The answer is quite definite.  The reason is because a match is between 2 or at most 4 players.  Since they will all be starting play at the same time, they all have an equal opportunity to practice on the course prior to the start of the match.  A stroke play tournament is played with a large field, with starting times spread out over several hours in many cases.  There simply is no opportunity for all players to have equal access to the tournament course before the competition begins, so they prohibit any players from practicing on the course.


That was my recollection.  But then isn't it apparent that this rationale buttresses sacm3bill's questioning of the whole competition paradign for a private (rule-abiding) round?  If we are talking about competition in the sense of you against the course or you against yourself, or even you against the guys in your foursome, then the rationale that applies to the prohibition against practice on the course seems to have become rather moot?  If the competition is against the course or yourself, then the issue of equal opportunity to practice does not apply.  If the competition is among those in the foursome, then everyone IN the competition/foursome DID have the same opportunity to practice on the course.  You are extending a prohibition that applies to and is premised on, as you say, "a large field, with starting times spread out over several hours in many cases", to three or four guys out to play a round of golf.

 

Or to put it another way, if you and I go out to play against each other, and the competition includes just you and I, then why should our choice of  stroke or match play make it not OK or OK, respectively, to hit a practice shot from the vicinity of the first tee before beginning our round?  Did we not have the same opportunity or lack of opportunity to practice on the course before our round regardless of the the form of our competition?  Regardless of whether we compete at stroke play or match play we are, again as you said, "starting play at the same time, [so we] all have an equal opportunity to practice on the course prior to the start of the match."

 

Maybe when the USGA says stroke play competition they really DO mean competition as they have otherwise defined it in the rules, e.g., the large field with starting times potentially hours apart.

 

And here is where I am going with this,  In the winter and early spring the course I play at (in Socal) had frost issues and so on the weekend they had an 8:00 shotgun start.  It was just a shotgun start, not a competition among all who participated in the shotgun.  Since I do not like the term casual round I will call them private rounds.  None of the conditions for a stroke play competition that have been  previously cited were met.    I always tried to be in about the 15A or B or the 16 A or B group.  I played those final 3 or 4 holes as a warmup and then played a full 18 holes starting at the first hole, for a score, and since I pay a monthly fee for unlimited play the course has no problem with me doing this.  Sometimes I was playing a (matchplay) match against someone starting at hole #1 (who started at the same shotgun hole as I did and so had equal opportunity to warm-up with on-course practice) but sometimes I wasn't.  Either way I kept a score and turned it in for handicap purposes.  I am finding it hard to rationalize turning in the scores for the rounds when I was playing a private matchplay match against someone but not turning in the scores for the rounds when I wasn't playing a match against someone.  Yet I think that would be the result of the broad interpretation of stroke pay competition that is being argued for here.  Certainly once I have practiced on the course for those 3 or 4 holes there is no way to un-ring that bell - I have irrevocably benefited from that 3 or 4 hole warm-up - so I have no argument that the round was played in accordance with the Rules of Golf, if I accept that broad definition.  Yet it seems wrong, to me, to not post those scores solely on the basis that I wasn't playing a matchplay match against someone.

 

None of which should be taken as me supporting a "breakfast ball" in any form or sense.  I'm just not sure that the rules truly prohibit it in the case of a private round if not taken from the teeing area (to avoid triggering the start of the stipulated round).  And I am virtually certain that the version where the first ball is clearly understood as being a practice ball and NOT the ball in play, is NOT against the rules if the people playing are playing matchplay.  That said, clearly the course would be within its rights to not allow it in either case.  As the course could disallow my way of playing the shotguns back in the spring.

post #165 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback View Post

None of which should be taken as me supporting a "breakfast ball" in any form or sense.  I'm just not sure that the rules truly prohibit it in the case of a private round if not taken from the teeing area (to avoid triggering the start of the stipulated round).  And I am virtually certain that the version where the first ball is clearly understood as being a practice ball and NOT the ball in play, is NOT against the rules if the people playing are playing matchplay.  That said, clearly the course would be within its rights to not allow it in either case.  As the course could disallow my way of playing the shotguns back in the spring.

 

If anyone can show me anywhere in the rules where there is any differentiation between a "competitive" round and a "private/casual" round, I'll happily concede the point.  It just feels to me that the drafters chose a specific verbiage to describe any round of golf, and where they intend for a differentiation between types of play (stroke vs match for example) they clearly indicate the differences.  Where no such differentiation is spelled out, the rules apply equally to all. 

 

Failing that, decision 7-1b/1 that was posted earlier clearly prohibits the practice highlighted above in stroke play.

post #166 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

 

If anyone can show me anywhere in the rules where there is any differentiation between a "competitive" round and a "private/casual" round, I'll happily concede the point.  It just feels to me that the drafters chose a specific verbiage to describe any round of golf, and where they intend for a differentiation between types of play (stroke vs match for example) they clearly indicate the differences.  Where no such differentiation is spelled out, the rules apply equally to all. 

 

Failing that, decision 7-1b/1 that was posted earlier clearly prohibits the practice highlighted above in stroke play.


It has already been posted, 3-1

 

Quote:

A stroke-play competition consists of competitors completing each hole of a stipulated round or rounds and, for each round, returning a score card on which there is a gross score for each hole. Each competitor is playing against every other competitor in the competition.

The competitor who plays the stipulated round or rounds in the fewest strokes is the winner.

 

Is that what happens in a casual, or as I prefer to call it, a private round?  If I go out to play a round by myself, very few of those characteristics apply.  There are no competitors.  I can only play 13 holes and still have a score to post so stipulated round is out.  I am not returning a scorecard.  And there is no winner. 

 

 

There is also this from the definition section:

 

Quote:

Committee

The “Committee’’ is the committee in charge of the competition or, if the matter does not arise in a competition, the committee in charge of the course. (emphasis added)

 

Seems like this clearly admits of the possibility that there are situations wherein there is NO competition.  IOW it sets up exactly that dichotomy of competition, non-competition that you asked for.

 

There are also clearly places in the rules where the presumption of a competition does not apply.  There are a variety of ways that a player can get DQed.  But what does that mean in the case of a private round?  Does DQ mean the score of that round cannot be posted for HC?  Clearly not, as the handicap rules allow (indeed mandate) for the posting of a round where rules breaches occurred that would have resulted in a DQ in a competitive round.

 

Say someone hits a ball OB and does the lateral drop thing.  The rules say that it is hitting a wrong ball and unless corrected will result in a DQ.  Yet the handicap rule allows (even mandates) that a score be posted for that round if the rules were otherwise followed for the whole round.

 

In the scenario that I gave where I played a few holes as the tail end of a shotgun start and then "started" my real round do you think it is allowable or not allowable to post the round for handicap?

 

It seems to me that there are, what I will call, internal rules of the game that govern the actual play of the game, and external rules of the game, that do not involve the play itself but the surrounding conditions.  An example of an internal rule would be what you do when you hit OB.  An example of an external rule would be the rule requiring the Committee to provide each competitor with a scorecard containing the competitor's name and date.  I don't know about you, but when I go out to play by myself no one gives me a scorecard with my name and the date on it.  And I even post the round for handicap without signing the scorecard.

 

So CLEARLY there are rules which simply do not apply to private rounds.  Maybe that is an argument for the British handicap model where on rounds that ARE in a competition count for handicap.

 

But I am just saying, and I think I have demonstrated, that there are rules that, by their very nature, ONLY apply to actual competitions.  Now I know that opens up the danger of people abusing that concept by ignoring what I have called internal rules on the basis that they are not in a actual formal competition.  But in most cases it is easy to distinguish a rule that makes no sense for a private competition.  Maybe a good rule of thumb would be any rule whose penalty is disqualification but the breach of which would not prevent the round from being posted for handicap purposes?  Because disqualification implies you are being disqualified from something.  And in a private round what are you being disqualified from?  You are not disqualified from posting for handicap purposes, according to the provisions of the Handicap Manual.  I would also argue that anything that happens before the round or after the round would be an external rule. 

 

The question then is whether the practice rule is one that applies only to formal competitions.  And I think the answer comes in the penalty that applies, which is automatic DQ.  What is the significance of an automatic DQ in a private round?  Does it make the round not eligible for posting for handicap?  I don't think so.  Another reason to think that the practice rule applies only to formal competitions is that there is a completely different rule for practice during a round,  There we have the kind of penalty, loss of hole or 2 strokes, that can apply to any round, competitive or private.  It is, in my jargon, an internal rule not an external rule. 

 

And when we consider the rationale for the pre-round practice rule, which I think is the correct rationale, it makes no sense in the case of a private round.  If you and I go out to play together why should what we do before the round be governed by what our intent is regarding what kind of play we will engage in.  We might just play side by side with no competition.  We might have a competition between us two at stroke play.  We might have a competition between us two at match play.  We might not even decide until right before the opening tee shot.  Yet that decision governs something we might have done a half hour before we even decided to play together?  Does that make sense?

 

As to the decision that has been cited, it is clearly in the context of an actual formal competition, so I do not think it really bears on the argument I am making.  Parenthetically I am puzzled by the statement in that decision that the Committee would be justified in modifying the penalty of DQ under 33-7.  I don't see what the "exceptional individual case" is that would justify waiving DQ. 


Edited by turtleback - 7/4/13 at 1:17pm
post #167 of 358

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

You want to take it a bit farther in the overthinking department?  The rule says:  "Each competitor is playing against every other competitor in the competition."  How do you square that with a flighted stroke play tournament where you are only competing against the 30 other guys in your flight, not the 110 guys in other flights?  They are all still competing in the same tournament, but only against a limited number of the other competitors.

 

Its only overthinking if I'm wrong.   a2_wink.gif  And if I'm right, well then you're underthinking it.c2_beer.gif

 

But I think this is easy to square with flighted stroke play.   The stroke play competition is a competition amongst those in your flight.  You're not competing with anyone else in the "tournament."  That fits with 3-1.  I don't think the "tournament" has anything to do with it, does it? Some of us are using "tournament" interchangably with "competition" to illustrate the distinction between "competition" and "private/solo" play clear.  In your case, you're describing an event that with multiple competitions.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

 

 

This is it.  Just because a guy has played a mulligan (let's call it what it is), he's not going to abandon that first ball without a fight.  Playing a second ball off the first tee does nothing for pace of play.

 

Yeah, if I hit a breakfast ball, provisional, practice shot, whatever...I'm going to pick it up if I can.  I don't know how much time that wastes, since I'll probably take fewer strokes with the better ball, but I agree that we can't assume that the player abandon's the first ball.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback View Post

 

 

But I am just saying, and I think I have demonstrated, that there are rules that, by their very nature, ONLY apply to actual competitions.  Now I know that opens up the danger of people abusing that concept by ignoring what I have called internal rules on the basis that they are not in a actual formal competition.  But in most cases it is easy to distinguish a rule that makes no sense for a private competition.  Maybe a good rule of thumb would be any rule whose penalty is disqualification but the breach of which would not prevent the round from being posted for handicap purposes?  Because disqualification implies you are being disqualified from something.  And in a private round what are you being disqualified from?  You are not disqualified from posting for handicap purposes, according to the provisions of the Handicap Manual.  I would also argue that anything that happens before the round or after the round would be an external rule. 

 

 

 

Based on a similar line of thought, I had begun to conclude that the Rules don't directly apply at all to solo/private play (though effectively apply via adoption by the handicap manual), but you post an interesting take that may be closer to the truth.  

 

 

Here's another example that tends to indicate an internal/external distinction:

 

 

The Rules use the word “competitor’’ and the word "player."  "Player" is not defined but competitor is.  A “competitor’’ is a player in a stroke-play competition.  So a competitor is a type of "player."  Rule 7-1 governs practice.  (a) allows a "player" to practice on the course before match play.  (b) prohibits a "competitor" from practicing on the course the day before a "stroke play competition."  The handicap manual requires recording of scores whether match play or stroke play--so the practice rule is not intended to protect against vanity capping.  As others explained, the purpose of the prohibition is to protect the field only.  The definition of "competitor" to exclude solo/private play is consistent with this.  Defining it to includes solo/private play does not.

 

Then there are rules that only use the word "player."  Under 8-1, a "player" may not give or ask for advice.  There is no distinction between match play or stroke play.  If the Rules of Golf govern solo/private play, then this rule applies to such play as well.  

 

Under Rule 9-3, "competitor who has incurred a penalty should inform his marker as soon as practicable."  I don't know about you, but I don't have markers on my home course every weekend.  But that doesn't mean that I don't have to take the penalty, 9-1 says "The number of strokes a player has taken includes any penalty strokes incurred."  

 

 

 



 

 

I think there are a lot of people on here who know the rules inside and out, but since they are sure that this is wrong, they aren't giving it fair consideration.  Many of those same people, on other topics, usually look deeper and deeper for the truth, but here, perhaps tiring of these arguments , refuse to give this serious thought.   I think there's a good discussion to be had, and I don't necessarily think it should cause alarm because it is not as earth shattering as it sounds.

 

I also think some view the Rules of Golf the way people in the US tend to view the Constitution--as something that is perfect and unassailable.  Both are documents created by fallible people, trying to write something that will stand for centuries.  So the 'defenders' here, those who argue that the rules apply always, might just think that its poor drafting--and that's ok!  You can say that.  If you think the fact the section on "stroke play" begins with "a stroke play competition is..." due to oversight, or poor drafting, then that's an argument.  But holding the rules in high esteem should not prevent you from making it.  

 

That's the only explanation, as far as I can tell, to include solo/private rounds in the definition of "competition."  

 



 

Enjoy your Independence Day!

post #168 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback View Post


It has already been posted, 3-1

Is that what happens in a casual, or as I prefer to call it, a private round?  If I go out to play a round by myself, very few of those characteristics apply.  There are no competitors.  I can only play 13 holes and still have a score to post so stipulated round is out.  I am not returning a scorecard.  And there is no winner. 


There is also this from the definition section:


Seems like this clearly admits of the possibility that there are situations wherein there is NO competition.  IOW it sets up exactly that dichotomy of competition, non-competition that you asked for.

There are also clearly places in the rules where the presumption of a competition does not apply.  There are a variety of ways that a player can get DQed.  But what does that mean in the case of a private round?  Does DQ mean the score of that round cannot be posted for HC?  Clearly not, as the handicap rules allow (indeed mandate) for the posting of a round where rules breaches occurred that would have resulted in a DQ in a competitive round.

Say someone hits a ball OB and does the lateral drop thing.  The rules say that it is hitting a wrong ball and unless corrected will result in a DQ.  Yet the handicap rule allows (even mandates) that a score be posted for that round if the rules were otherwise followed for the whole round.

In the scenario that I gave where I played a few holes as the tail end of a shotgun start and then "started" my real round do you think it is allowable or not allowable to post the round for handicap?

It seems to me that there are, what I will call, internal rules of the game that govern the actual play of the game, and external rules of the game, that do not involve the play itself but the surrounding conditions.  An example of an internal rule would be what you do when you hit OB.  An example of an external rule would be the rule requiring the Committee to provide each competitor with a scorecard containing the competitor's name and date.  I don't know about you, but when I go out to play by myself no one gives me a scorecard with my name and the date on it.  And I even post the round for handicap without signing the scorecard.

So CLEARLY there are rules which simply do not apply to private rounds.  Maybe that is an argument for the British handicap model where on rounds that ARE in a competition count for handicap.

But I am just saying, and I think I have demonstrated, that there are rules that, by their very nature, ONLY apply to actual competitions.  Now I know that opens up the danger of people abusing that concept by ignoring what I have called internal rules on the basis that they are not in a actual formal competition.  But in most cases it is easy to distinguish a rule that makes no sense for a private competition.  Maybe a good rule of thumb would be any rule whose penalty is disqualification but the breach of which would not prevent the round from being posted for handicap purposes?  Because disqualification implies you are being disqualified from something.  And in a private round what are you being disqualified from?  You are not disqualified from posting for handicap purposes, according to the provisions of the Handicap Manual.  I would also argue that anything that happens before the round or after the round would be an external rule. 

The question then is whether the practice rule is one that applies only to formal competitions.  And I think the answer comes in the penalty that applies, which is automatic DQ.  What is the significance of an automatic DQ in a private round?  Does it make the round not eligible for posting for handicap?  I don't think so.  Another reason to think that the practice rule applies only to formal competitions is that there is a completely different rule for practice during a round,  There we have the kind of penalty, loss of hole or 2 strokes, that can apply to any round, competitive or private.  It is, in my jargon, an internal rule not an external rule. 

And when we consider the rationale for the pre-round practice rule, which I think is the correct rationale, it makes no sense in the case of a private round.  If you and I go out to play together why should what we do before the round be governed by what our intent is regarding what kind of play we will engage in.  We might just play side by side with no competition.  We might have a competition between us two at stroke play.  We might have a competition between us two at match play.  We might not even decide until right before the opening tee shot.  Yet that decision governs something we might have done a half hour before we even decided to play together?  Does that make sense?

As to the decision that has been cited, it is clearly in the context of an actual formal competition, so I do not think it really bears on the argument I am making.  Parenthetically I am puzzled by the statement in that decision that the Committee would be justified in modifying the penalty of DQ under 33-7.  I don't see what the "exceptional individual case" is that would justify waiving DQ. 

3-1 does not define anything like a casual, or private round. Nor does it, or any other rule indicate that any rules apply differently for such a round.
Edited by David in FL - 7/4/13 at 3:09pm
post #169 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

 

No speculation.  The answer is quite definite.  The reason is because a match is between 2 or at most 4 players.  Since they will all be starting play at the same time, they all have an equal opportunity to practice on the course prior to the start of the match.  A stroke play tournament is played with a large field, with starting times spread out over several hours in many cases.  There simply is no opportunity for all players to have equal access to the tournament course before the competition begins, so they prohibit any players from practicing on the course.


That was my recollection.  But then isn't it apparent that this rationale buttresses sacm3bill's questioning of the whole competition paradign for a private (rule-abiding) round?  If we are talking about competition in the sense of you against the course or you against yourself, or even you against the guys in your foursome, then the rationale that applies to the prohibition against practice on the course seems to have become rather moot?  If the competition is against the course or yourself, then the issue of equal opportunity to practice does not apply.  If the competition is among those in the foursome, then everyone IN the competition/foursome DID have the same opportunity to practice on the course.  You are extending a prohibition that applies to and is premised on, as you say, "a large field, with starting times spread out over several hours in many cases", to three or four guys out to play a round of golf.

 

Or to put it another way, if you and I go out to play against each other, and the competition includes just you and I, then why should our choice of  stroke or match play make it not OK or OK, respectively, to hit a practice shot from the vicinity of the first tee before beginning our round?  Did we not have the same opportunity or lack of opportunity to practice on the course before our round regardless of the the form of our competition?  Regardless of whether we compete at stroke play or match play we are, again as you said, "starting play at the same time, [so we] all have an equal opportunity to practice on the course prior to the start of the match."

 

Maybe when the USGA says stroke play competition they really DO mean competition as they have otherwise defined it in the rules, e.g., the large field with starting times potentially hours apart.

 

And here is where I am going with this,  In the winter and early spring the course I play at (in Socal) had frost issues and so on the weekend they had an 8:00 shotgun start.  It was just a shotgun start, not a competition among all who participated in the shotgun.  Since I do not like the term casual round I will call them private rounds.  None of the conditions for a stroke play competition that have been  previously cited were met.    I always tried to be in about the 15A or B or the 16 A or B group.  I played those final 3 or 4 holes as a warmup and then played a full 18 holes starting at the first hole, for a score, and since I pay a monthly fee for unlimited play the course has no problem with me doing this.  Sometimes I was playing a (matchplay) match against someone starting at hole #1 (who started at the same shotgun hole as I did and so had equal opportunity to warm-up with on-course practice) but sometimes I wasn't.  Either way I kept a score and turned it in for handicap purposes.  I am finding it hard to rationalize turning in the scores for the rounds when I was playing a private matchplay match against someone but not turning in the scores for the rounds when I wasn't playing a match against someone.  Yet I think that would be the result of the broad interpretation of stroke pay competition that is being argued for here.  Certainly once I have practiced on the course for those 3 or 4 holes there is no way to un-ring that bell - I have irrevocably benefited from that 3 or 4 hole warm-up - so I have no argument that the round was played in accordance with the Rules of Golf, if I accept that broad definition.  Yet it seems wrong, to me, to not post those scores solely on the basis that I wasn't playing a matchplay match against someone.

 

None of which should be taken as me supporting a "breakfast ball" in any form or sense.  I'm just not sure that the rules truly prohibit it in the case of a private round if not taken from the teeing area (to avoid triggering the start of the stipulated round).  And I am virtually certain that the version where the first ball is clearly understood as being a practice ball and NOT the ball in play, is NOT against the rules if the people playing are playing matchplay.  That said, clearly the course would be within its rights to not allow it in either case.  As the course could disallow my way of playing the shotguns back in the spring.

 

It no different from any other rule.  It's regulated by form of play.  Stroke play, no practice, whether the competition is 4 players, 40 players, or 400 players.  Match play, practice okay unless the conditions of the competition prohibit it.  Otherwise you have to invent a cutoff point, and that just makes the rules more complex.  People here are always looking for simpification, and this is as simple as it gets.  NO PRACTICE on the course for stroke play.

post #170 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

 

It no different from any other rule.  It's regulated by form of play.  Stroke play, no practice, whether the competition is 4 players, 40 players, or 400 players.  Match play, practice okay unless the conditions of the competition prohibit it.  Otherwise you have to invent a cutoff point, and that just makes the rules more complex.  People here are always looking for simpification, and this is as simple as it gets.  NO PRACTICE on the course for stroke play.

 

But since the rule says no on-course practice on the day of a stroke play **competition** you are effectively editing the actual rule and then claiming that the edited rule makes your point.  Even though your own description of why the rules make that distinction does not bear out your position.  Meanwhile you are ignoring the clear examples of the rules considering competition rounds and non-competition rounds as different animals.  It is like you ignored everything I wrote, interacted with none of it, and just repeated your prior statement without even making much of a defense of it.

 

So let me ask you a straightforward question:  What is the significance of being DQed in a private/solo round?  What are you being DQed from and what is the consequence?

post #171 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback View Post


Meanwhile you are ignoring the clear examples of the rules considering competition rounds and non-competition rounds as different animals. 

I'm still waiting for an example of where the rules differentiate between competition and non-competition rounds. Simply referring to a round as a competition round does NOT imply that there is such an thing as a non-competition round. Simple choice of verbiage recognizing that the game is intended to be played against other golfers.

Regardless, we're completely OT with regard to breakfast balls, which aren't even practice, but rather a simple do-over.
post #172 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

 

Are you sure that it isn't because your fivesome is holding up the rest of the course while never coming close to keeping pace with the group in front of you? e2_whistling.gif

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MS256 View Post

Ha ha ha ha! Maybe that's our problem with people in front holding us up. We simply aren't creating enough of a "buffer" from the start. d2_doh.gif

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thescarecrow View Post

 

     Five guys hitting a second ball ?, yes, your  group may flow smoother, however, I pity all the groups behind you.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

 

Of course meaning that you play from the first tee promptly to allow the next group their turn.  Unlike Kletus whose group takes 10 minutes to finally head out.  e3_rolleyes.gif

 

 

All joking aside... this is a standard afternoon group that consists of 15-20 golfers at a private club.  We have reserved tee times and there will be no one behind us.  For whatever reason they tend to prefer to play fivesomes vs threesomes.   I would prefer 5 threesomes.... they end up teaming up 3 fivesomes.  The groups start teeing off a few minutes after 1 pm and we are almost always back in the clubhouse, bets settled and heading to the parking lot by 5:30.  Takes about 4.5 hours to get 3 to 4 groups off of the same tee box (everyone hitting 2 off the first tee), get back into the clubhouse... settle bets.. grab a drink.. and head to the parking lot.   Maybe I'm wrong...  but that doesn't seem like all that slow of play to me.  

 

 

 

The point that I was trying to make is that most courses don't put enough of a buffer between groups.   If you allow groups to follow right behind each other then a slowdown in the first group creates a traffic jam that just gets worse and worse if any of the groups that had to wait end up having issues on their next shot. The ripples move back all the way through the course and play slows down dramatically.  The course may get more golfers on the course.. but the pace of play suffers.  

post #173 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kletus View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

 

Are you sure that it isn't because your fivesome is holding up the rest of the course while never coming close to keeping pace with the group in front of you? e2_whistling.gif

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MS256 View Post

Ha ha ha ha! Maybe that's our problem with people in front holding us up. We simply aren't creating enough of a "buffer" from the start. d2_doh.gif

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thescarecrow View Post

 

     Five guys hitting a second ball ?, yes, your  group may flow smoother, however, I pity all the groups behind you.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

 

Of course meaning that you play from the first tee promptly to allow the next group their turn.  Unlike Kletus whose group takes 10 minutes to finally head out.  e3_rolleyes.gif

 

 

All joking aside... this is a standard afternoon group that consists of 15-20 golfers at a private club.  We have reserved tee times and there will be no one behind us.  For whatever reason they tend to prefer to play fivesomes vs threesomes.   I would prefer 5 threesomes.... they end up teaming up 3 fivesomes.  The groups start teeing off a few minutes after 1 pm and we are almost always back in the clubhouse, bets settled and heading to the parking lot by 5:30.  Takes about 4.5 hours to get 3 to 4 groups off of the same tee box (everyone hitting 2 off the first tee), get back into the clubhouse... settle bets.. grab a drink.. and head to the parking lot.   Maybe I'm wrong...  but that doesn't seem like all that slow of play to me.  

 

 

 

The point that I was trying to make is that most courses don't put enough of a buffer between groups.   If you allow groups to follow right behind each other then a slowdown in the first group creates a traffic jam that just gets worse and worse if any of the groups that had to wait end up having issues on their next shot. The ripples move back all the way through the course and play slows down dramatically.  The course may get more golfers on the course.. but the pace of play suffers.  

 

Most courses aren't private clubs with limited play.  On my home course 3 groups starting to tee off at 1 PM would just be the start of the afternoon rush, even on most weekdays.  And they would have other groups ahead of them with whom they would be expected to keep pace.  Comparing conditions at a private course to what most of us face at public facilities just doesn't work.  When you know that another group will be teeing off 9 minutes behind you, you save any extra time you can for actual playing concerns, you don't waste it on mulligans.  At least you do if you have any respect at all for the other players on the course.

post #174 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kletus View Post

 

 

 

 

 

All joking aside... this is a standard afternoon group that consists of 15-20 golfers at a private club.  We have reserved tee times and there will be no one behind us.  For whatever reason they tend to prefer to play fivesomes vs threesomes.   I would prefer 5 threesomes.... they end up teaming up 3 fivesomes.  The groups start teeing off a few minutes after 1 pm and we are almost always back in the clubhouse, bets settled and heading to the parking lot by 5:30.  Takes about 4.5 hours to get 3 to 4 groups off of the same tee box (everyone hitting 2 off the first tee), get back into the clubhouse... settle bets.. grab a drink.. and head to the parking lot.   Maybe I'm wrong...  but that doesn't seem like all that slow of play to me.  

 

 

 

  

 

  No one behind you? Where is this course, Fantasy Island?

post #175 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by thescarecrow View Post

 

  No one behind you? Where is this course, Fantasy Island?

I've played hundreds of rounds where I was the only person on the entire golf course. The club I used to belong to only had about 20 people that played golf more than a few times a year, and almost all of them played a round every day at 12:30 and that was it. I hated when duck season came along because the one guy I could always count on to play in the afternoons didn't play at all during duck season. It always made my day when I pulled into the parking lot and saw other vehicles. They had about 100 members but most were only members because they had been for years and years and kept up their membership so their grandkids could swim in the pool. They would show up on holidays for the barbecue and scramble but that's it.

 

 The average round where I work, and play now, averages only a few groups at any given time and on a weekday it's not hard to find plenty of times when nobody is on the course except me on the mower.

post #176 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post


I'm still waiting for an example of where the rules differentiate between competition and non-competition rounds. Simply referring to a round as a competition round does NOT imply that there is such an thing as a non-competition round. Simple choice of verbiage recognizing that the game is intended to be played against other golfers.

Regardless, we're completely OT with regard to breakfast balls, which aren't even practice, but rather a simple do-over.


Only because you are ignoring the rules that apply to stroke play competitions which clearly do not apply to a private round.  When was the last time the Committee gave you a scorecard at the beginning of a private round with your name and the date on it?  Yet that is a clear requirement for a stroke play competition.  And you might say, "Well that is in a competition and this is a private round", to whcih I say, "Exactly my point!"

 

And I will direct to you the same question I directed to FourPutt:  What is the significance of being DQed in a private non-competitive round?  Don't you think there is a difference between a competitive round and a non-competitive round when the worst penalty that can be imposed on you in a competitive round, DQ, is utterly meaningless in a non-competitive round?  If you just ignore each of the instances I've given of the difference (presumably because the differences involve situations that are external to the course of play - but then again so does pre-round practice on the course) then you are right, there are no differences.  But that is because you are ignoring the differences I've cited, not because they do not exist.  Because you have not explained why these differences are not really differences at all.

 

And some have defined their version of a breakfast ball as simply hitting a practice shot from near the first tee prior to beginning the round.  So under THAT definition of a breakfast ball this discussion is still on-topic, IMO.

post #177 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post


I'm still waiting for an example of where the rules differentiate between competition and non-competition rounds. Simply referring to a round as a competition round does NOT imply that there is such an thing as a non-competition round. Simple choice of verbiage recognizing that the game is intended to be played against other golfers.

 

All of this has been posted numerous times.  Competitor is defined as a player in a stroke play competition.  So there are "players" who are not "competitors."  Some rules apply to all players (they just say "a player may not...."), some to players in match play, and others to competitors. 

 

Its not a matter of verbiage.  Its not simply referring to a round as a competition.  Its been posted about 15 times on here, but have you actually read 3-1?

 

Quote:

A stroke-play competition consists of competitors completing each hole of stipulated round or rounds and, for each round, returning a score card on which there is a gross score for each hole. Each competitor is playing against every other competitor in the competition.

The competitor who plays the stipulated round or rounds in the feweststrokes is the winner.

In a handicap competition, the competitor with the lowest net score for thestipulated round or rounds is the winner.

 

A private/solo round does not consist of competitors in the plural.  It does not involve returning a score card.  It does not involve playing against another competitor.  There is no winning.  No part of 3-1 sounds anything like a private round.  Its not a matter of what word they chose--the substance of the rule simply doesn't make sense in a solo/private round.  

post #178 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post


I'm still waiting for an example of where the rules differentiate between competition and non-competition rounds. Simply referring to a round as a competition round does NOT imply that there is such an thing as a non-competition round. Simple choice of verbiage recognizing that the game is intended to be played against other golfers.

Regardless, we're completely OT with regard to breakfast balls, which aren't even practice, but rather a simple do-over.


Only because you are ignoring the rules that apply to stroke play competitions which clearly do not apply to a private round.  When was the last time the Committee gave you a scorecard at the beginning of a private round with your name and the date on it?  Yet that is a clear requirement for a stroke play competition.  And you might say, "Well that is in a competition and this is a private round", to whcih I say, "Exactly my point!"

 

And I will direct to you the same question I directed to FourPutt:  What is the significance of being DQed in a private non-competitive round?  Don't you think there is a difference between a competitive round and a non-competitive round when the worst penalty that can be imposed on you in a competitive round, DQ, is utterly meaningless in a non-competitive round?  If you just ignore each of the instances I've given of the difference (presumably because the differences involve situations that are external to the course of play - but then again so does pre-round practice on the course) then you are right, there are no differences.  But that is because you are ignoring the differences I've cited, not because they do not exist.  Because you have not explained why these differences are not really differences at all.

 

And some have defined their version of a breakfast ball as simply hitting a practice shot from near the first tee prior to beginning the round.  So under THAT definition of a breakfast ball this discussion is still on-topic, IMO.

 

You know, you can keep splitting hairs until the cows come home to justify breaking the rules to yourself, but I don't buy it.  When it's all said and done, a mulligan is a mulligan is a mulligan.  The rules prohibit mulligans, therefore they prohibit anything resembling a "breakfast ball".  Send an email to the USGA asking this question and the most likely response would be "LOL".   With that i'm quite done with this discussion.  

 

You can now go on with your rationalizing.

post #179 of 358
Quote:

6-6. Scoring In Stroke Play

a. Recording Scores

After each hole the marker should check the score with the competitor and record it. On completion of the round the marker must sign the score card and hand it to the competitor. If more than one marker records the scores, each must sign for the part for which he is responsible.

b. Signing and Returning Score Card

After completion of the round, the competitor should check his score for each hole and settle any doubtful points with the Committee. He must ensure that the marker or markers have signed the score card, sign the score card himself and return it to the Committee as soon as possible.

 

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 6-6b:

Disqualification.

 

Its not hair splitting, there are entire rules about stroke play that obviously do not apply to private rounds.  

post #180 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post

Quote:

6-6. Scoring In Stroke Play

a. Recording Scores

After each hole the marker should check the score with the competitor and record it. On completion of the round the marker must sign the score card and hand it to the competitor. If more than one marker records the scores, each must sign for the part for which he is responsible.

b. Signing and Returning Score Card

After completion of the round, the competitor should check his score for each hole and settle any doubtful points with the Committee. He must ensure that the marker or markers have signed the score card, sign the score card himself and return it to the Committee as soon as possible.

 

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 6-6b:

Disqualification.

 

Its not hair splitting, there are entire rules about stroke play that obviously do not apply to private rounds.  

 

Ok, why doesn't it apply?  You are playing a cash game with your buddies and you make a breach calling for disqualification.  In my group you are out of the game.   Any money you have lost is lost, and any money you have won is frozen at that point.  If the DQ results in you losing 1$ a hole from that point on, then it is what it is, a lesson in playing by the rules.  Posting for handicap?  DQ invalidates that round.  Sorry but you can keep up your end and I can keep up my end and as usual, you will go your way and I'll still play by the rules.  As I suggested above, send your idea into the USGA and see if they even bother to respond to such a question.

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