or Connect
TheSandTrap.com › Golf Forum › The Clubhouse › Golf Talk › What is your opinion on the "Breakfast Ball"?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

What is your opinion on the "Breakfast Ball"? - Page 5

post #73 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback View Post

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by flintcreek6412 View Post

BUT I didn't know the part about unfinished holes where you take strokes already played and add strokes expected to finish out.  That's good information to know.  Not sure I'll ever use it but I commend those that do to help with pace of play.  And for a guy like me whose HC borders 9, my ESC varies by course since easy courses give me a course HC of 8 or 9 and harder bump me to 10 or 11 thus changing my ESC.  And seriously....is it a rule that you must physically use a club to measure 2 club lengths?

 

This comes up most frequently in matchplay when a hole is conceded.  You might be 20 feet away but your opponent has done so poorly that he concedes the hole.  Then it would be unfair for you to have to treat the conceded stroke as a one putt for posting purposes.  You are most likely to take 2 strokes so that is what you do for posting.  Or say you knock your tee shot to the fringe of the green on a par 3.  Your opponent then pumps 2 balls OB and concedes the hole. You have to then judge whether you are more likely to get down in 2 or 3, and post accordingly.

 

To add to this... When I'm in this situation I try to be fairly conservative.  If there is some question as to whether it would take 3 or 4 strokes, I mark 3 to avoid any suggestion of padding or sandbagging.  Such scores are for handicap purposes only, otherwise they are meaningless.

post #74 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback View Post

I think there is a big difference between someone who deals with a rare situation, LB with no provisional, and then still records their score using the correct handicap rules (as in FourPutt's case), and someone who simply and routinely plays their own version of the rules.  Like the people who, on a ball hit OB, drop a ball and add a stroke.

I disagree.  You are making the assumption that the guy who plays "his own version of the rules" does it "simply and routinely."  I totally agree with you in regards to guys who FREQUENTLY hit balls astray, yet NEVER hit provisionals and ALWAYS play OB as if it's a lateral water hazard.  But in your (general "your" here, not just you specifically) blanket statements ("your handicap isn't valid," "you are not playing golf," etc) you are making too many assumptions.

 

For example, I ALWAYS play an OB shot like a lateral hazard (+1 extra penalty stroke) when I hit one OB and fail to hit a provisional.  But "always" is a little misleading here because I can count on one hand the amount of times I have EVER had to do that.  (In the last couple of years, the only instance was when I discovered that the course had an unexpected internal OB. I dropped, lay 3, and hacked my way to a triple)  It happens a lot less than 10% of the time, I can tell you that.

 

Further, even if I'm taking it exactly as a lateral hazard and even if I NEVER hit a provisional, my handicap would probably change none.  If I play OB like a lateral, I'm lying 2 somewhere near the boundary of the course, in a place where it is a lot more likely I'm going to finish with a double or higher anyway.  Double bogey is my ESC score so matter how I play it, the chances are very high that I am ending up at ESC regardless.

 

This is why I don't understand, and never will, how so many people seem to be around here are so rigid in regards to this sort of thing.  These quirky little scenarios are going to affect people's handicaps by a small amount, if any, regardless of how they play it (finish the hole incorrectly, or like fourputt, just pickup and play a 17 hole round), and that's why I wish everybody would adopt a little more of a "live and let live" attitude, and just, well, lighten up.

post #75 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

I disagree.  You are making the assumption that the guy who plays "his own version of the rules" does it "simply and routinely."  I totally agree with you in regards to guys who FREQUENTLY hit balls astray, yet NEVER hit provisionals and ALWAYS play OB as if it's a lateral water hazard.  But in your (general "your" here, not just you specifically) blanket statements ("your handicap isn't valid," "you are not playing golf," etc) you are making too many assumptions.

 

For example, I ALWAYS play an OB shot like a lateral hazard (+1 extra penalty stroke) when I hit one OB and fail to hit a provisional.  But "always" is a little misleading here because I can count on one hand the amount of times I have EVER had to do that.  (In the last couple of years, the only instance was when I discovered that the course had an unexpected internal OB. I dropped, lay 3, and hacked my way to a triple)  It happens a lot less than 10% of the time, I can tell you that.

 

Further, even if I'm taking it exactly as a lateral hazard and even if I NEVER hit a provisional, my handicap would probably change none.  If I play OB like a lateral, I'm lying 2 somewhere near the boundary of the course, in a place where it is a lot more likely I'm going to finish with a double or higher anyway.  Double bogey is my ESC score so matter how I play it, the chances are very high that I am ending up at ESC regardless.

 

This is why I don't understand, and never will, how so many people seem to be around here are so rigid in regards to this sort of thing.  These quirky little scenarios are going to affect people's handicaps by a small amount, if any, regardless of how they play it (finish the hole incorrectly, or like fourputt, just pickup and play a 17 hole round), and that's why I wish everybody would adopt a little more of a "live and let live" attitude, and just, well, lighten up.

Golfingdad for President.

post #76 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

I disagree.  You are making the assumption that the guy who plays "his own version of the rules" does it "simply and routinely."  I totally agree with you in regards to guys who FREQUENTLY hit balls astray, yet NEVER hit provisionals and ALWAYS play OB as if it's a lateral water hazard.  But in your (general "your" here, not just you specifically) blanket statements ("your handicap isn't valid," "you are not playing golf," etc) you are making too many assumptions.

 

For example, I ALWAYS play an OB shot like a lateral hazard (+1 extra penalty stroke) when I hit one OB and fail to hit a provisional.  But "always" is a little misleading here because I can count on one hand the amount of times I have EVER had to do that.  (In the last couple of years, the only instance was when I discovered that the course had an unexpected internal OB. I dropped, lay 3, and hacked my way to a triple)  It happens a lot less than 10% of the time, I can tell you that.

 

Further, even if I'm taking it exactly as a lateral hazard and even if I NEVER hit a provisional, my handicap would probably change none.  If I play OB like a lateral, I'm lying 2 somewhere near the boundary of the course, in a place where it is a lot more likely I'm going to finish with a double or higher anyway.  Double bogey is my ESC score so matter how I play it, the chances are very high that I am ending up at ESC regardless.

 

This is why I don't understand, and never will, how so many people seem to be around here are so rigid in regards to this sort of thing.  These quirky little scenarios are going to affect people's handicaps by a small amount, if any, regardless of how they play it (finish the hole incorrectly, or like fourputt, just pickup and play a 17 hole round), and that's why I wish everybody would adopt a little more of a "live and let live" attitude, and just, well, lighten up.

 

 

I disagree. I love this game, so i will play by the rules of the game.

Also, i've had this scenario before, in a tournament match. 1st ball supposedly OB, Provisional OB, Provisional in fairway. Found first ball, very close to being over the line. We were told by our coach, since there isn't any rules officials, to play both balls and get one of the coaches to check later on, as to which score to sign. This was how we decided things, it was agreed upon, like local rules. So, on one hand i would have an 8 versus a 4. I sunk a 30' for par off the first found ball. We went back later, and i told them were the ball was (we marked it with a tee). It was hard to tell if it was in, you couldn't get a direct line between the two white stakes. It was ruled that it was in, benefit of the doubt went to me on that.

 

So there's the difference, a 4 and an 8. When you hit a ball OB, and drop a ball, you bring into consideration that you might have hit a hazard or OB again on your provisional. What if OB was right and Water was left, you hit it OB, walk down and drop. You could easily hit another hazard with a provisional and your score would go  up. To me i can't say i actually score what i did if i didn't follow the rules. This is me, its a position i stand by. I am not saying you can't take what ever drops you want, you are your own person. But i will voice my opinion on the fact that i think people should obey the rules of golf, strictly, if they are serious about there handicap. If they want to take a round off, and just play around, go ahead, but don't mark it down as something official.

 

I will do this, i will play golf with my dad, we take a full mulligans, give putts, have a fun time. Then there are times were him and I will play a course we like, or a special course (TPC sawgrass). There i will play by the rules of golf because i want the challenge. I would consider only the later as anything towards my true handicap.

post #77 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

I disagree.  You are making the assumption that the guy who plays "his own version of the rules" does it "simply and routinely."  I totally agree with you in regards to guys who FREQUENTLY hit balls astray, yet NEVER hit provisionals and ALWAYS play OB as if it's a lateral water hazard.  But in your (general "your" here, not just you specifically) blanket statements ("your handicap isn't valid," "you are not playing golf," etc) you are making too many assumptions.

 

For example, I ALWAYS play an OB shot like a lateral hazard (+1 extra penalty stroke) when I hit one OB and fail to hit a provisional.  But "always" is a little misleading here because I can count on one hand the amount of times I have EVER had to do that.  (In the last couple of years, the only instance was when I discovered that the course had an unexpected internal OB. I dropped, lay 3, and hacked my way to a triple)  It happens a lot less than 10% of the time, I can tell you that.

 

Further, even if I'm taking it exactly as a lateral hazard and even if I NEVER hit a provisional, my handicap would probably change none.  If I play OB like a lateral, I'm lying 2 somewhere near the boundary of the course, in a place where it is a lot more likely I'm going to finish with a double or higher anyway.  Double bogey is my ESC score so matter how I play it, the chances are very high that I am ending up at ESC regardless.

 

This is why I don't understand, and never will, how so many people seem to be around here are so rigid in regards to this sort of thing.  These quirky little scenarios are going to affect people's handicaps by a small amount, if any, regardless of how they play it (finish the hole incorrectly, or like fourputt, just pickup and play a 17 hole round), and that's why I wish everybody would adopt a little more of a "live and let live" attitude, and just, well, lighten up.

 

 

I disagree. I love this game, so i will play by the rules of the game.

Also, i've had this scenario before, in a tournament match. 1st ball supposedly OB, Provisional OB, Provisional in fairway. Found first ball, very close to being over the line. We were told by our coach, since there isn't any rules officials, to play both balls and get one of the coaches to check later on, as to which score to sign. This was how we decided things, it was agreed upon, like local rules. So, on one hand i would have an 8 versus a 4. I sunk a 30' for par off the first found ball. We went back later, and i told them were the ball was (we marked it with a tee). It was hard to tell if it was in, you couldn't get a direct line between the two white stakes. It was ruled that it was in, benefit of the doubt went to me on that.

 

So there's the difference, a 4 and an 8. When you hit a ball OB, and drop a ball, you bring into consideration that you might have hit a hazard or OB again on your provisional. What if OB was right and Water was left, you hit it OB, walk down and drop. You could easily hit another hazard with a provisional and your score would go  up. To me i can't say i actually score what i did if i didn't follow the rules. This is me, its a position i stand by. I am not saying you can't take what ever drops you want, you are your own person. But i will voice my opinion on the fact that i think people should obey the rules of golf, strictly, if they are serious about there handicap. If they want to take a round off, and just play around, go ahead, but don't mark it down as something official.

 

I will do this, i will play golf with my dad, we take a full mulligans, give putts, have a fun time. Then there are times were him and I will play a course we like, or a special course (TPC sawgrass). There i will play by the rules of golf because i want the challenge. I would consider only the later as anything towards my true handicap.

 

saevel125 for President!!!!!!!!!!  

 

b2_tongue.gif to Ernest.  a2_wink.gif

post #78 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post

 

 

I disagree. I love this game, so i will play by the rules of the game.

Also, i've had this scenario before, in a tournament match. 1st ball supposedly OB, Provisional OB, Provisional in fairway. Found first ball, very close to being over the line. We were told by our coach, since there isn't any rules officials, to play both balls and get one of the coaches to check later on, as to which score to sign. This was how we decided things, it was agreed upon, like local rules. So, on one hand i would have an 8 versus a 4. I sunk a 30' for par off the first found ball. We went back later, and i told them were the ball was (we marked it with a tee). It was hard to tell if it was in, you couldn't get a direct line between the two white stakes. It was ruled that it was in, benefit of the doubt went to me on that.

 

So there's the difference, a 4 and an 8. When you hit a ball OB, and drop a ball, you bring into consideration that you might have hit a hazard or OB again on your provisional. What if OB was right and Water was left, you hit it OB, walk down and drop. You could easily hit another hazard with a provisional and your score would go  up. To me i can't say i actually score what i did if i didn't follow the rules. This is me, its a position i stand by. I am not saying you can't take what ever drops you want, you are your own person. But i will voice my opinion on the fact that i think people should obey the rules of golf, strictly, if they are serious about there handicap. If they want to take a round off, and just play around, go ahead, but don't mark it down as something official.

 

I will do this, i will play golf with my dad, we take a full mulligans, give putts, have a fun time. Then there are times were him and I will play a course we like, or a special course (TPC sawgrass). There i will play by the rules of golf because i want the challenge. I would consider only the later as anything towards my true handicap.

 

Great points.

 

I think everyone in this thread would agree that if you are in a tournament you play it as it lies and you follow ALL of the rules to the letter.  If I were a tournament player I would want very much for my handicap to be based entirely on rounds that were played completely by tournament golf, because that is the type of competition I would be playing against.  However, I am a social golfer.  I play with several local groups and spend a fair amount of time carrying prospects or clients out to the course to have fun.  I may play in one tournament a year.. and even that one probably has at least one local rule that doesn't exactly follow true tournament rules.  I follow the rules as closely as I can, and I spend a fair amount of time on forums such as this trying to read about as many rulings and such as I can so that I know the proper way to proceed if an abnormal situation were to arise.   However, I also freely state that 90% of the rounds I play involve some sort of small derivation from the rules such as two off the first tee or gimmee putts inside the leather.

 

The beauty of the handicap system is that even with these derivations.. it does a pretty darn good job of performing its intended purpose.. it identifies my scoring potential.  It isn't intended to predict what score I would shoot in a tournament or to provide an average score for me.  All it does is identify the POTENTIAL score I could shoot.  Since almost all of my rounds are played the same I can watch the movement of my handicap and get a very good idea of how my game is progressing.   Of course... I don't need an index to tell me that info.  I know when I'm playing well and when I'm not.  I find other statistics like GIR, Putts, Fairways hit, etc to be better indicators of what I need to work on.   Also, if I were really interested in comparing my rounds I would be way more concerned with my scoring average, mean, and median.   Handicap just tells me how good my good rounds are.   To truly improve then I need to work on consistency and improving how bad my BAD rounds are.  ESC takes alot of that info out of the round.. so index just really isn't the best way to track your scores.

 

I say all of that just to get to this:

 

I have no problem with someone who wants to play everything by tournament rules and establish a completely official handicap.  As a matter of fact, I have a ton of respect for anyone who goes through that effort.  I have a ton of respect for Fourputt, and I know that he has a ton of useful golf knowledge and has probably forgotten more about the rules than I know.   I would love to play a round of golf with him.  However, I also find it asinine to suggest that my handicap is "meaningless" and that I am somehow less of a person or golfer because I admit to playing golf in the real world (Which 90% of golfers play in).  I have an engineering degree and am now working in the world of finance.  If there is one thing I have learned from these two industries, it is that there are no absolutes in life.  Every LAW out there will be broken or dis-proven given time.  Sometimes it is best to just understand that other people do things differently and have different priorities.   NEITHER is wrong.   The only problem comes when people outright dismiss any idea that is different than what they believe.

 

I have actually enjoyed this discussion, but it is sad how quickly people on both sides resorted to putting each other down instead of simply discussing the merits of the different arguments.

post #79 of 358

Oh yeah...

 

To the OP:

 

I think a breakfast ball is fine as long as you aren't in a tournament and everyone who is competing agrees to it beforehand.   Yes, it will have an effect on your score.. but as long as you understand what that effect is, I don't see where there would be any issue.

 

The other thing to keep in mind is that it is easily a slippery slope to moving from simply a breakfast ball to pretty much playing by whatever rules you want.  That's something that your group will have to come to grips with and be careful to avoid.  Either way... golf is intended to be fun, so I say play it whatever way your group enjoys.

post #80 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post

 

 

I disagree. I love this game, so i will play by the rules of the game.

Also, i've had this scenario before, in a tournament match. 1st ball supposedly OB, Provisional OB, Provisional in fairway. Found first ball, very close to being over the line. We were told by our coach, since there isn't any rules officials, to play both balls and get one of the coaches to check later on, as to which score to sign. This was how we decided things, it was agreed upon, like local rules. So, on one hand i would have an 8 versus a 4. I sunk a 30' for par off the first found ball. We went back later, and i told them were the ball was (we marked it with a tee). It was hard to tell if it was in, you couldn't get a direct line between the two white stakes. It was ruled that it was in, benefit of the doubt went to me on that.

 

So there's the difference, a 4 and an 8. When you hit a ball OB, and drop a ball, you bring into consideration that you might have hit a hazard or OB again on your provisional. What if OB was right and Water was left, you hit it OB, walk down and drop. You could easily hit another hazard with a provisional and your score would go  up. To me i can't say i actually score what i did if i didn't follow the rules. This is me, its a position i stand by. I am not saying you can't take what ever drops you want, you are your own person. But i will voice my opinion on the fact that i think people should obey the rules of golf, strictly, if they are serious about there handicap. If they want to take a round off, and just play around, go ahead, but don't mark it down as something official.

 

I will do this, i will play golf with my dad, we take a full mulligans, give putts, have a fun time. Then there are times were him and I will play a course we like, or a special course (TPC sawgrass). There i will play by the rules of golf because i want the challenge. I would consider only the later as anything towards my true handicap.

I have played with Golfingdad probably upwards of a couple hundred times.  He does play by the rules and I have never seen him cheat or bend the rules knowingly.  He's not talking about hitting a ball OB, he's talking about hitting a normal drive and then discovering after walking 280 yards up the fairway that their happens to be an OB situation unknown to him so he would have no way of knowing or thinking about hitting a provisional.  We're talking about casual rounds because he knows if it was a tournament he would have to go back and hit again.  So are you going to walk back 280 yards on a crowded day to re-hit your ball? We are also talking about valid handicaps here, so if he did drop a ball so now he is hitting 3 in the trees, probably a punch out shot.  So then he would need to get up and down in 2 to get a 5. If he were able to do that, we are talking about 1 in 50 rounds of golf he has 1 shot less than he should have.  So for a short while his handicap might say 6.7 instead of 6.8.

 

I love the game of golf and follow all of the rules too, like you.  Their are circumstances IMO that most normal people do that would be against the rules. Last week I was in a hurry to finish a hole and had like a 6-inch putt and didn't feel like marking to get out of my friends way so I hit it left-handed with the back of my putter and it missed. I'm not counting that extra shot that I would need to hole it out because I have never missed a 6-inch putt in my life and never will, and that doesn't make my handicap invalid. 

post #81 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post

I disagree. I love this game, so i will play by the rules of the game.

Also, i've had this scenario before, in a tournament match. 1st ball supposedly OB, Provisional OB, Provisional in fairway. Found first ball, very close to being over the line. We were told by our coach, since there isn't any rules officials, to play both balls and get one of the coaches to check later on, as to which score to sign. This was how we decided things, it was agreed upon, like local rules. So, on one hand i would have an 8 versus a 4. I sunk a 30' for par off the first found ball. We went back later, and i told them were the ball was (we marked it with a tee). It was hard to tell if it was in, you couldn't get a direct line between the two white stakes. It was ruled that it was in, benefit of the doubt went to me on that.

 

So there's the difference, a 4 and an 8. When you hit a ball OB, and drop a ball, you bring into consideration that you might have hit a hazard or OB again on your provisional. What if OB was right and Water was left, you hit it OB, walk down and drop. You could easily hit another hazard with a provisional and your score would go  up. To me i can't say i actually score what i did if i didn't follow the rules. This is me, its a position i stand by. I am not saying you can't take what ever drops you want, you are your own person. But i will voice my opinion on the fact that i think people should obey the rules of golf, strictly, if they are serious about there handicap. If they want to take a round off, and just play around, go ahead, but don't mark it down as something official.

 

I will do this, i will play golf with my dad, we take a full mulligans, give putts, have a fun time. Then there are times were him and I will play a course we like, or a special course (TPC sawgrass). There i will play by the rules of golf because i want the challenge. I would consider only the later as anything towards my true handicap.

Actually, you don't disagree, as the scenario you describe doesn't come into play here.  You are talking about a tournament, for one, and we're talking about casual golf.  Nobody (I hope) is condoning not playing 100% by the rules in a tournament, as that would be ludicrous.  Further, I do not condone not playing by the rules during casual rounds on purpose (I follow them as closely as is feasibly and realistically possible), but what I do condone is people cutting others a little more slack when they do have to make small concessions during regular rounds.

 

Lastly, if you are comparing a 4 to an 8 in your scenario, then you aren't at all accurately refuting my point, because the difference between the 4 and the 8 is a judgment call by an official, not a different application of the rule (or a fudging of a rule).  And here's where your scenario actually illustrates my point for me ... if you really were comparing playing 100% by the rules (the 8) vs. the fudging rule of dropping right there, then the second hit would be your 4th shot as opposed to your second shot.  Therefore, by fudging the rule, you come home in 6.  Now, assuming this is a par 4 (I'm making that assumption because a par from near the OB stakes seems a lot more likely than a birdie, but correct me if I'm wrong), then your 8 becomes a 7 with ESC for handicap posting.  How much do you think that 1 stroke over the course of 10 rounds is going to change that handicap?  And that is assuming said round is one of your 10 best, and there is really only a 50% chance of that happening.  And if you were me, then the max. score you could take on that hole is a 6, so in either case, you come home in 6 for your handicap.  See what I'm saying?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

saevel125 for President!!!!!!!!!!

I'd vote for him too!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kletus View Post

The beauty of the handicap system is that even with these derivations.. it does a pretty darn good job of performing its intended purpose.. it identifies my scoring potential.  It isn't intended to predict what score I would shoot in a tournament or to provide an average score for me.  All it does is identify the POTENTIAL score I could shoot.  Since almost all of my rounds are played the same I can watch the movement of my handicap and get a very good idea of how my game is progressing.   Of course... I don't need an index to tell me that info.  I know when I'm playing well and when I'm not.  I find other statistics like GIR, Putts, Fairways hit, etc to be better indicators of what I need to work on.   Also, if I were really interested in comparing my rounds I would be way more concerned with my scoring average, mean, and median.   Handicap just tells me how good my good rounds are.   To truly improve then I need to work on consistency and improving how bad my BAD rounds are.  ESC takes alot of that info out of the round.. so index just really isn't the best way to track your scores.

 

I say all of that just to get to this:

 

I have no problem with someone who wants to play everything by tournament rules and establish a completely official handicap.  As a matter of fact, I have a ton of respect for anyone who goes through that effort.  I have a ton of respect for Fourputt, and I know that he has a ton of useful golf knowledge and has probably forgotten more about the rules than I know.   I would love to play a round of golf with him.  However, I also find it asinine to suggest that my handicap is "meaningless" and that I am somehow less of a person or golfer because I admit to playing golf in the real world (Which 90% of golfers play in).  I have an engineering degree and am now working in the world of finance.  If there is one thing I have learned from these two industries, it is that there are no absolutes in life.  Every LAW out there will be broken or dis-proven given time.  Sometimes it is best to just understand that other people do things differently and have different priorities.   NEITHER is wrong.   The only problem comes when people outright dismiss any idea that is different than what they believe.

 

I have actually enjoyed this discussion, but it is sad how quickly people on both sides resorted to putting each other down instead of simply discussing the merits of the different arguments.

kletus as saevels running mate!!! ;)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCfanatic35 View Post

I love the game of golf and follow all of the rules too, like you.  Their are circumstances IMO that most normal people do that would be against the rules. Last week I was in a hurry to finish a hole and had like a 6-inch putt and didn't feel like marking to get out of my friends way so I hit it left-handed with the back of my putter and it missed. I'm not counting that extra shot that I would need to hole it out because I have never missed a 6-inch putt in my life and never will, and that doesn't make my handicap invalid. 

Yup, well said.

 

Dad's handicap on the other hand ... LOL!!

post #82 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kletus View Post

 

Great points.

 

I think everyone in this thread would agree that if you are in a tournament you play it as it lies and you follow ALL of the rules to the letter.  If I were a tournament player I would want very much for my handicap to be based entirely on rounds that were played completely by tournament golf, because that is the type of competition I would be playing against.  However, I am a social golfer.  I play with several local groups and spend a fair amount of time carrying prospects or clients out to the course to have fun.  I may play in one tournament a year.. and even that one probably has at least one local rule that doesn't exactly follow true tournament rules.  I follow the rules as closely as I can, and I spend a fair amount of time on forums such as this trying to read about as many rulings and such as I can so that I know the proper way to proceed if an abnormal situation were to arise.   However, I also freely state that 90% of the rounds I play involve some sort of small derivation from the rules such as two off the first tee or gimmee putts inside the leather.

 

The beauty of the handicap system is that even with these derivations.. it does a pretty darn good job of performing its intended purpose.. it identifies my scoring potential.  It isn't intended to predict what score I would shoot in a tournament or to provide an average score for me.  All it does is identify the POTENTIAL score I could shoot.  Since almost all of my rounds are played the same I can watch the movement of my handicap and get a very good idea of how my game is progressing.   Of course... I don't need an index to tell me that info.  I know when I'm playing well and when I'm not.  I find other statistics like GIR, Putts, Fairways hit, etc to be better indicators of what I need to work on.   Also, if I were really interested in comparing my rounds I would be way more concerned with my scoring average, mean, and median.   Handicap just tells me how good my good rounds are.   To truly improve then I need to work on consistency and improving how bad my BAD rounds are.  ESC takes alot of that info out of the round.. so index just really isn't the best way to track your scores.

 

I say all of that just to get to this:

 

I have no problem with someone who wants to play everything by tournament rules and establish a completely official handicap.  As a matter of fact, I have a ton of respect for anyone who goes through that effort.  I have a ton of respect for Fourputt, and I know that he has a ton of useful golf knowledge and has probably forgotten more about the rules than I know.   I would love to play a round of golf with him.  However, I also find it asinine to suggest that my handicap is "meaningless" and that I am somehow less of a person or golfer because I admit to playing golf in the real world (Which 90% of golfers play in).  I have an engineering degree and am now working in the world of finance.  If there is one thing I have learned from these two industries, it is that there are no absolutes in life.  Every LAW out there will be broken or dis-proven given time.  Sometimes it is best to just understand that other people do things differently and have different priorities.   NEITHER is wrong.   The only problem comes when people outright dismiss any idea that is different than what they believe.

 

I have actually enjoyed this discussion, but it is sad how quickly people on both sides resorted to putting each other down instead of simply discussing the merits of the different arguments.

 

 

This is exactly what I was talking about.  There is a big difference between that very rare case where a ball is lost but no provisional was hit, and the posting score was determined under the provisions of the handicap manual, and routinely taking 2 off the first tee and not holing out and who knows what else.  How can that person's score ever be compared with someone else's, since there is no way of knowing which "variation" of the rules was being used?  There is no such thing as tournament rules and casual rules.  There are rules.  You can choose to not play by them and if I'm playing with you I won't say a word.  But I won't pay any attention to anything you say about your game or scores. 

 

I also don't personally get the whole "we do this because we are just out to have fun" argument.  To me one of the most fun things in golf is recovering from some stupid position I've put myself in, like topping my drive on the first hole and still scrambling for a bogey or par.  If I hit a "breakfast ball" I would not only compromise my score I would lose the joy of having dug myself out of a hole.  And I don't get why it is more fun to write down a smaller number than you actually earned.  To me golf is like life - it is about overcoming adversity. 

 

Maybe your 90% figure for people who don't play by the rules is correct, but in the club I belong to it isn't.  We have ongoing rules education and members are pretty knowledgeable about what the rules are and they follow them.  And if a question arises on a rule they refer it to the Rules Committee for a ruling.  And this is not just in tournament play it is for all play.  Maybe I'm just lucky to have fallen in with like-minded guys. 

post #83 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback View Post

 

 

This is exactly what I was talking about.  There is a big difference between that very rare case where a ball is lost but no provisional was hit, and the posting score was determined under the provisions of the handicap manual, and routinely taking 2 off the first tee and not holing out and who knows what else.  How can that person's score ever be compared with someone else's, since there is no way of knowing which "variation" of the rules was being used?  There is no such thing as tournament rules and casual rules.  There are rules.  You can choose to not play by them and if I'm playing with you I won't say a word.  But I won't pay any attention to anything you say about your game or scores. 

 

 

If we are playing against each other you will know exactly what rules to compare my score by because we will be playing the same.  If we aren't competing against each other then I could care less what score you shoot other than to congratulate you at the end.  I don't care if you pay attention to my game or scores, but don't fool yourself into thinking that they are any different than yours.  I know you want to judge what I do, but it changes nothing.   I've already explained above that it does very little to change my index and I understand my game more than enough to know where I stand as a golfer.  I know for a fact that unless you are cheating on YOUR index... that we could play each other according to index and have a good match.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback View Post
I also don't personally get the whole "we do this because we are just out to have fun" argument.  To me one of the most fun things in golf is recovering from some stupid position I've put myself in, like topping my drive on the first hole and still scrambling for a bogey or par.  If I hit a "breakfast ball" I would not only compromise my score I would lose the joy of having dug myself out of a hole.  And I don't get why it is more fun to write down a smaller number than you actually earned.  To me golf is like life - it is about overcoming adversity. 

 

 

I have no idea what your life experiences are, but one day you will learn that golf is not nearly as serious an endeavor as you make it out to be.   I started this year off by having a heart attack and I can promise you that it changed my outlook on life.  Every time I step out on the golf course is pure joy.  It's a treasure.  Learn to enjoy all of the aspects instead of worrying about judging what others are doing. 

 

While there are exceptions...  a breakfast ball will have very little affect on your overall scores.  There is a whole lot more golf to be played than that first shot, and most of the time the first shot gets used.  It is truly no big deal (unless you are competing with someone else).

 

I put down the scores that I shoot.  I follow the rules very closely.. but don't get caught up in following them to the minutia.  (yes I've dropped where my ball went OB.. but I hit 4 from that spot, making sure to account for stroke and distance).  I get no joy out of "writing down a smaller number than I earned"... simply because I write what I scored based on the rules of the game my group is playing.   If you want to be so pompous as to try and say that it isn't golf then that's your opinion.. but it doesn't make it right.  If I wanted.. I could just not turn in any score that had a potential rules breach in it... but by not turning in most of my scores I would be sandbagging... so that would be worse.. it would be cheating. 

 

Somehow I manage to play with close to 50 new people a year as well as with 2 or three regular groups.   I find that in almost all cases I'M the one that is most focused on following the rules.  I've never been accused of cheating anyone, and we all seem to have a great time playing this wonderful game.  We only have a couple of rules.   1.  Have fun.  2.  If you aren't betting.. play it however you want.  3.  If you are betting... here is how we play... don't cheat.

 

I'm willing to bet that irregardless of what the purists here say.... The above is how pretty much every social round of golf in the world is played.

 

I promise.  If you relax and let people enjoy the game without trying to judge them.... the golf / time continuum won't be destroyed.  You might even one day realize what I mean when I tell you that we are out there to have fun!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback View Post

Maybe your 90% figure for people who don't play by the rules is correct, but in the club I belong to it isn't.  We have ongoing rules education and members are pretty knowledgeable about what the rules are and they follow them.  And if a question arises on a rule they refer it to the Rules Committee for a ruling.  And this is not just in tournament play it is for all play.  Maybe I'm just lucky to have fallen in with like-minded guys. 

 

From my experience on the golf course... 90% is actually very low.  It is probably closer to 98-99%.  Golf is a complex game in which complex situations arise.  In truth... most people don't play tournaments and don't give a crap about following all of the stuffy tournament rules.  They just want to play close enough to the rules so that everyone feels like they are playing the same game.

 

I'm extremely happy for you that you found a great group to play with that fit's your style.  Just understand that tournament golf is YOUR style.  You are actually in the minority among golfers.  As I said before...  it doesn't make either group right or wrong.  There is valid justification for both and a time for both.  

post #84 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kletus View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback View Post
I also don't personally get the whole "we do this because we are just out to have fun" argument.  To me one of the most fun things in golf is recovering from some stupid position I've put myself in, like topping my drive on the first hole and still scrambling for a bogey or par.  If I hit a "breakfast ball" I would not only compromise my score I would lose the joy of having dug myself out of a hole.  And I don't get why it is more fun to write down a smaller number than you actually earned.  To me golf is like life - it is about overcoming adversity. 

 

 

I have no idea what your life experiences are, but one day you will learn that golf is not nearly as serious an endeavor as you make it out to be.   I started this year off by having a heart attack and I can promise you that it changed my outlook on life.  Every time I step out on the golf course is pure joy.  It's a treasure.  Learn to enjoy all of the aspects instead of worrying about judging what others are doing. 

 

While there are exceptions...  a breakfast ball will have very little affect on your overall scores.  There is a whole lot more golf to be played than that first shot, and most of the time the first shot gets used.  It is truly no big deal (unless you are competing with someone else).

 

I put down the scores that I shoot.  I follow the rules very closely.. but don't get caught up in following them to the minutia.  (yes I've dropped where my ball went OB.. but I hit 4 from that spot, making sure to account for stroke and distance).  I get no joy out of "writing down a smaller number than I earned"... simply because I write what I scored based on the rules of the game my group is playing.   If you want to be so pompous as to try and say that it isn't golf then that's your opinion.. but it doesn't make it right.  If I wanted.. I could just not turn in any score that had a potential rules breach in it... but by not turning in most of my scores I would be sandbagging... so that would be worse.. it would be cheating. 

 

Somehow I manage to play with close to 50 new people a year as well as with 2 or three regular groups.   I find that in almost all cases I'M the one that is most focused on following the rules.  I've never been accused of cheating anyone, and we all seem to have a great time playing this wonderful game.  We only have a couple of rules.   1.  Have fun.  2.  If you aren't betting.. play it however you want.  3.  If you are betting... here is how we play... don't cheat.

 

I'm willing to bet that irregardless of what the purists here say.... The above is how pretty much every social round of golf in the world is played.

 

I promise.  If you relax and let people enjoy the game without trying to judge them.... the golf / time continuum won't be destroyed.  You might even one day realize what I mean when I tell you that we are out there to have fun!

 

 

The point Turtleback was making there is that we don't consider it to be "serious" to play by the rules - it's just how the game is played for us.  It's only fun to play by the rules.  I can do all of the things you consider important and still play every stroke within the rules.  I don't shift gears depending on the importance of a round.  Especially now that I don't get the opportunity to play that often (I live on an island with no golf - haven't even seen my clubs for 15 months d1_bigcry.gif  ), every round is important, and that means I play the way which is most fun for me every time I go out.  If that makes it serious for you, then we have no real common meeting ground in this subject.  The thought that playing by the rules can't be fun is completely foreign to me.

post #85 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kletus View Post

 

If we are playing against each other you will know exactly what rules to compare my score by because we will be playing the same.  If we aren't competing against each other then I could care less what score you shoot other than to congratulate you at the end.  I don't care if you pay attention to my game or scores, but don't fool yourself into thinking that they are any different than yours.  I know you want to judge what I do, but it changes nothing.   I've already explained above that it does very little to change my index and I understand my game more than enough to know where I stand as a golfer.  I know for a fact that unless you are cheating on YOUR index... that we could play each other according to index and have a good match.

 

 

I have no idea what your life experiences are, but one day you will learn that golf is not nearly as serious an endeavor as you make it out to be.   I started this year off by having a heart attack and I can promise you that it changed my outlook on life.  Every time I step out on the golf course is pure joy.  It's a treasure.  Learn to enjoy all of the aspects instead of worrying about judging what others are doing. 

 

While there are exceptions...  a breakfast ball will have very little affect on your overall scores.  There is a whole lot more golf to be played than that first shot, and most of the time the first shot gets used.  It is truly no big deal (unless you are competing with someone else).

 

I put down the scores that I shoot.  I follow the rules very closely.. but don't get caught up in following them to the minutia.  (yes I've dropped where my ball went OB.. but I hit 4 from that spot, making sure to account for stroke and distance).  I get no joy out of "writing down a smaller number than I earned"... simply because I write what I scored based on the rules of the game my group is playing.   If you want to be so pompous as to try and say that it isn't golf then that's your opinion.. but it doesn't make it right.  If I wanted.. I could just not turn in any score that had a potential rules breach in it... but by not turning in most of my scores I would be sandbagging... so that would be worse.. it would be cheating. 

 

Somehow I manage to play with close to 50 new people a year as well as with 2 or three regular groups.   I find that in almost all cases I'M the one that is most focused on following the rules.  I've never been accused of cheating anyone, and we all seem to have a great time playing this wonderful game.  We only have a couple of rules.   1.  Have fun.  2.  If you aren't betting.. play it however you want.  3.  If you are betting... here is how we play... don't cheat.

 

I'm willing to bet that irregardless of what the purists here say.... The above is how pretty much every social round of golf in the world is played.

 

I promise.  If you relax and let people enjoy the game without trying to judge them.... the golf / time continuum won't be destroyed.  You might even one day realize what I mean when I tell you that we are out there to have fun!

 

 

From my experience on the golf course... 90% is actually very low.  It is probably closer to 98-99%.  Golf is a complex game in which complex situations arise.  In truth... most people don't play tournaments and don't give a crap about following all of the stuffy tournament rules.  They just want to play close enough to the rules so that everyone feels like they are playing the same game.

 

I'm extremely happy for you that you found a great group to play with that fit's your style.  Just understand that tournament golf is YOUR style.  You are actually in the minority among golfers.  As I said before...  it doesn't make either group right or wrong.  There is valid justification for both and a time for both.  

+1

Hit the nail on the head for everyone I know.c2_beer.gif

post #86 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

 

The point Turtleback was making there is that we don't consider it to be "serious" to play by the rules - it's just how the game is played for us.  It's only fun to play by the rules.  I can do all of the things you consider important and still play every stroke within the rules.  I don't shift gears depending on the importance of a round.  Especially now that I don't get the opportunity to play that often (I live on an island with no golf - haven't even seen my clubs for 15 months d1_bigcry.gif  ), every round is important, and that means I play the way which is most fun for me every time I go out.  If that makes it serious for you, then we have no real common meeting ground in this subject.  The thought that playing by the rules can't be fun is completely foreign to me.

 

 

You sort of got it.   I'm not saying that playing by the rules isn't fun.  I'm not saying that "serious" golf isn't fun.  It is fun.  I enjoy it when the opportunity arises.  I also enjoy a nice casual round with friends where if I see my buddy accidentally hit the ground with his club in a hazard I'm not going to call him on it.  I'll let him know that it was a violation so that he learns.. but no way am I going to assess the penalty even if the two of us have a bet going (different story if its a group bet... because protecting others comes into play).  In the grand scheme of things...the statistics of the handicap system will work that shot out.

 

  I'm just saying that you need to be objective enough to understand that most of the players out there don't put the same emphasis on following every single rule on every single shot that you do.  They have fun their way... you have fun your way.  Everyone is still playing golf!!  All I've asked in this whole thread is that you refrain from making judgements on those that do it differently.  My only issue with the entire thread is that you and others have come across as condescending to others that may look at things differently than you.  Be open minded and help people understand the importance of playing by the rules without the absolutist attitude that anything other than the rules is blasphemy.  

 

And we DO have common ground on the subject.  We both love this game! c2_beer.gif

 

 

 

Let me know when you get back to the states.  If you can make it to the upstate of SC I'll treat you to a round of golf!

post #87 of 358

I always play by the rules, meaning if there's a chance the ball is lost or out of bounds I hit a provisional.  I don't hit breakfast balls, but then I always try to schedule my tee time so I have some time on the range. 

 

All that said, I've read every post here and what rings loud to me is that the U.S. handicap system is flawed.  Our official handicaps should come from tournament play only, like the Europeans, so that we're free to manage our non-tournament rounds as we choose to without fear of slowing down play or being labeled a cheater.  

post #88 of 358

Here's the thing, i don't play by the rules because i am serious, i play by the rules because i choose to and find enjoyment in playing the game at that level of a challenge. I get the whole lost ball issue, it sucks, you can't predict it, it happens.

 

I can understand someone who isn't as good taking some lee ways till they get better in ball striking. The odds of hitting a lost ball greatly diminish with a lower handicap. I think it happens to me, maybe a handful of times a year at most. So, walking back to the tee box doesn't bother me. If people complain, i have just as much right to play by strict rules of golf as they don't.

 

I will happily stay in the minority of those who play strictly by the rules, and happily piss off any group behind me as well. :p

post #89 of 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by rehmwa View Post

I really don't care how another guy plays.  I have my own game to worry about and am not interested in trying to play the other guy's game for him too.
 

I don't play two balls off of any tee, unless I'm doing so while penalized by the rules. That's just me though. Unless we're playing for money, I don't care if you play two off the first tee. Just don't make any comments about "beating me" or anything stupid like that once you stray from playing the rules to the best of your ability.

post #90 of 358

No 'breakfast balls', no 'gimmes', and play it as it lies. I warm up with a small bucket beforehand (30 balls).

 

I play golf. Not a weekend duffer. But I also play tournament golf, with a second in the Moosehead Dry Open this year. Unfortunately, our provincial tourny schedule is only 5 tournaments, then provincials.

 

That said, if we are not playing for money, you may play any way you want. Just don't expect me to play your way. I NEVER comment on others breaking rules, UNLESS they specifically ask me for a ruling or ask me beforehand to tell them the rules. This has no happened more than a handfull of times.


Edited by ApocG10 - 7/1/13 at 4:54pm
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Golf Talk
TheSandTrap.com › Golf Forum › The Clubhouse › Golf Talk › What is your opinion on the "Breakfast Ball"?