Handicaps just don't work for match play

**sonicblue** · July 31, 2007

I'm in a league, nine holes per week, and each player has a nine-hole handicap that we use. Mine started at a 5, and I was playing nowhere near that, I'm still not sure where the commissioner got that figure based on the practice rounds I submitted. The first few weeks, I got stomped, because I was giving strokes to people who were playing either to my real handicap or less.

As the season went on, my index rose very slowly, to a max of two strokes above my initial index, but then I started playing better, and it quickly dropped back down (I actually shot +1 net last week, and somehow it dropped!). However, during that time, I always struggle, even when playing people who were 5, 6, 7 strokes higher than me. When a guy who is a 12 handicap on nine holes starts par-par, you get a little suspicious.

Then it hit me: the 12 doesn't bogey every hole and double a couple holes. He pars a handful, bogeys a few and collapses on a few holes. I don't collapse, but I don't birdie much, either, so let's assume I either par or bogey (I have a handful of birdies this year, but for argument's sake).

1) He pars, I par, we halve. If he strokes on the hole, he wins.
2) He bogeys, I par, I win, but odds are he bogeys a harder hole and strokes, so we halve.
3) He collapses, even with a stroke, if I bogey at worst, I win. But, his collapse keeps that index up and garners him more strokes for scenarios #1 and #2.

The bottom line is, in match play, a high handicapper has much more advantage that simply the difference in indices would imply. Agreed or not? Discuss.

**hurley9192** · July 31, 2007

definitely agree, that's why most match play competitions that are handicapped are played at 60-80 percent of actual handicaps.

My one debate has always been which holes to give strokes on. Is it fair for a 2 handicap to have to give me a stroke on the toughest hole and also at the same time get a stroke from the scratch golfer on the same hole? Seems a little odd don't you think? I think that you play off the lowest guy and everyone strokes accordingly. Also, if the handicaps are close, the lower one will always have trouble. Typically, in our groups, the higher handicaps make or break the team because they can fluctuate a bunch, while the scratch guys are more consistent. Our group is between 2-8 handicaps, so there isn't a big turn, but they do have a big effect.

**Jeepthrills** · July 31, 2007

Handicaps are only as good as they guy who is posting his score. If you get someone who is not always honest and forgets to post his better scores his number will be inflated. This can also happen if he is not using equitable stroke control. Depending on his handicap, he can only post a certain score on a hole. I don't have the chart, but I believe as a 17 I can only post a double. I can still play the hole out for head to head purposes, but the worst I can report is a double.

Handicap is also based on your best scores and therefore your potential to shoot a low number. At times I have had mine lower that what I can realistically shoot with any consistency. There are also times when I can shoot a score quite a bit lower than my handicap. This can make someone look like a sandbagger. If you are a consistent player, you should ultimately end up winning out over the guy who has the blow ups. Assuming that he reports his scores the way he should.

The league we play in on Wednesdays is on a non-rated course. For this we use a straight 80% of the difference between your average and par. I am giving people at least 2 strokes per round and have given as many as 21 for nine this year. However, this still favors me. If both people shoot their average, I will always win because he is only getting 80% of the difference.

***iacas*** · July 31, 2007

definitely agree, that's why most match play competitions that are handicapped are played at 60-80 percent of actual handicaps.

One of the reasons I quit league this year (I played two years prior) was because I had a hard time winning matches where I was giving the guy a stroke a hole. He'd par or bogey everything, which meant I had a hard time winning any of those holes, and then get the occasional 8 or 9. Sure I'd win that hole, maybe two, but the other 7 or 8 were a struggle to say the least.

Match play is usually 60-80%, yes, and usually over 18 holes. In stroke play, handicaps work well, and I've found they work pretty well in match play over 18 holes too at a slight reduction.

My one debate has always been which holes to give strokes on. Is it fair for a 2 handicap to have to give me a stroke on the toughest hole and also at the same time get a stroke from the scratch golfer on the same hole? Seems a little odd don't you think?

It may seem odd, but if your club has been around for awhile, they're actually supposed to submit a few hundred scorecards, and the handicaps are calculated from that. So, they're as "fair" as they can be, in real-world terms.

Among lower handicappers, par fives kind of stink because they're long enough to allow you to recover from a bad shot and still make par or even birdie. But for a high handicapper, they're long enough that there are more opportunities for them to hit a horrible shot. We have a 210-yard par three at my course that's far harder than any par five for low handicappers... but all a high handicapper has to do is make two half-decent shots and two-putt and they're happy with their bogey.

Also, if the handicaps are close, the lower one will always have trouble.

Yeah... but I think they have more trouble playing against very high handicappers rather than the close ones.

All told, the handicap system works just as it should, and I believe there's really no better way. You can't have different systems for people based on their skill level and how far apart they are - the handicap system has to cover a pretty broad range of courses AND players.

**Roody** · July 31, 2007

My league does the match play format with handicaps as well. Just a couple weeks back I was in a matchup against a guy who got completely screwed over by the system.

His situation was that he only played the first week of the league, shot a pretty good round (for him), and then went on vacation for 5 weeks. He had subs in his absence, but when he returned, he returned to the handicap the computer figured out based on his only week of actually playing. So essentially, he had a much lower handicap than he was supposed to.

Fast forward to the week he plays against me, and he shoots his normal blow-up round, and I play to my handicap. I took 6 out of 9 points from him. He was giving me more strokes than he should have been. His handicap was nowhere near as high as it was for him last year.

**allin** · July 31, 2007

It sounds as though some of the golfers aren't submitting their scores properly for handicap purposes. You have to have a pretty high handicap before you can take more than triple bogey for handicap purposes.

***iacas*** · July 31, 2007

It sounds as though some of the golfers aren't submitting their scores properly for handicap purposes. You have to have a pretty high handicap before you can take more than triple bogey for handicap purposes.

If you're a 10 you can take a quadruple on a par three and a triple on every par four for handicap purposes. Their high limit is 7. At 20 you can take an 8 - a quintuple bogey on a par three and a triple on the par fives.

In leagues, I believe people usually count the unadjusted score. So I can only take double when posting (adjusting via ESC), but if I were to pop two O.B. on a par four in league, well, I'm staring at a snowman as far as my opponent is (correctly) concerned. What I adjust the score to later is irrelevant.

**Fourputt** · July 31, 2007

What you describe is the reason for ESC (Equitable Stroke Control) in the USGA handicap system. Up to an 18 handicap, you can't post higher than a 7 on any hole, including par 5 holes. If the system you are playing under doesn't follow that principle, then you ARE getting a bad deal. The USGA Ghin system is actually designed to favor the consistent golfer over the one who scores erratically. Those blowup holes get adjusted (a 9 on a par 5 becomes a 7) before the score is input into the system, while the golfer who keeps his hole scores to double bogey or less gets to record all of them for handicap purposes.

And contrary to the title of this thread, the Ghin handicap system is designed to work well for match play. In my men's club handicap match tournaments the matches will often come down the last couple of holes, or go into sudden death, even for players with a 10 stroke differential.

***iacas*** · July 31, 2007

What you describe is the reason for ESC (Equitable Stroke Control) in the USGA handicap system.

Who is you?

If the system you are playing under doesn't follow that principle, then you ARE getting a bad deal.

If you're playing in a league, you still use your unadjusted score for consideration. You don't adjust prior to scoring your match - you only adjust prior to putting your round in the system.

**Jeepthrills** · July 31, 2007

A client of mine had that happen to him earlier in the year. He was getting a stroke on a hole against a guy who was a 10. The guy got to 7 on a par 5 and picked up saying it was the most he could take. He had a 15 footer left for 8. My client made a legit 8 (net 7 w/stroke) and should have won the hole and picked up at least one more stroke towards totals. They play a cool format where they get 1 point per hole match play, but still play out every hole for and additional 3 points to the net winner. Anyway, the guy said he can't post more than a 7 and said they tied the hole. It ended up being a mess, but my client was right. Unfortunately he let the whole thing bug him and his round went south after that hole.

**Striper** · July 31, 2007

Correct. You should use your actual score for tournament and scoring purposes. You only adjust based on ESC when entering your score into the GHIN system.

I've played money games with guys who blow up on a hole and say "Well, that's 7, it's the highest I can take on a hole so I'll pick up." Wrong! If we're playing stroke play, you'll keep counting until you put the ball in the hole.

billybaroo · July 31, 2007

First off what happened to your client is BS.
You can't use ESC scores to score a match....Putt everything out. The adjustments are done AFTER the round is complete.
Total and utter crap

I agree with what has been said.
Additionally, the handicap system is set up for 18 hole scores. It combines 18 hole scores to give you a handicap. To then cut that in half and say that that is your handicap is not really true.

Also, I have found, most guys don't play nearly enough to have a true handicap. A lot of people still have scores from last summer and sometimes even the summer before representing their current handicaps. That's not really a true indication of what you can shoot to this year.

**Striper** · July 31, 2007

Our club has a rule that you must have a minimum of 10 full rounds posted in the six months prior to the season in order to participate. Helps minimize the problem you noted.

**Fourputt** · July 31, 2007

Who is you?

The OP.

If you're playing in a league, you still use your unadjusted score for consideration. You don't adjust prior to scoring your match - you only adjust prior to putting your round in the system.

I know that.... that's the whole point of ESC. You can't submit improbable hole scores for inclusion into the handicap calculation, but they still count for tournament or match scores. That is why I said that the system favors the consistent scorer. He is going to win more matches than the wild scorer because his handicap more closely matches his average score. The player with wild swings in his score is going only be in contention when he plays much better than his average, because this lowest scores are the only ones that will ever figure into his handicap.

***iacas*** · July 31, 2007

I know that.... that's the whole point of ESC. You can't submit improbable hole scores for inclusion into the handicap calculation, but they still count for tournament or match scores. That is why I said that the system favors the consistent scorer. He is going to win more matches than the wild scorer because his handicap more closely matches his average score.

I disagree. Imagine a consistent 5 playing a wild 20 (these are the adjusted scores, of course, as the 5 gives the 20 about 7 or 8 shots):

[pre]4 4 4 5 5 5 4 4 4 4 4 4 7 7 7 4 4 4[/pre] The inconsistent guy wins easily.

The player with wild swings in his score is going only be in contention when he plays much better than his average, because this lowest scores are the only ones that will ever figure into his handicap.

I still disagree, but I'll try a different tact here: in match play, a loss is only "one" hole, even if you have one of your blow-up holes and take a 12. Two consistent players will have a good match, and two inconsistent golfers who shoot the same score might have a good match... but the less consistent of the two will win most of the time. Let's do this with some adjusted scores:

[pre]4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 6 3 3 6 3 3 6 3 3 6 3 3 6 3 3 6[/pre] The inconsistent guy, who shot the same score as the consistent guy, wins one of every three holes (and thus 6-up). My own experience, again, bears this out. I played a lot of higher handicappers. It's rare that they string together 9 consistent holes, yet I do. I rarely ever beat them because they'd par or bogey most holes and blow up to 7s or 8s on others.

**Jeepthrills** · July 31, 2007

I agree with Erik. The diference between me being a 17 and a 10 is not that I make 7 more bogeys in 18 holes. It's that I make an extra bogey here and there, then throw in a 7 for good measure on a par 4. I usually make pars and bogeys on 7-8 holes per 9. I just happen to make an untimely double or tripple.

**$2 Nassau** · August 1, 2007

Going through the same issues in my league. Not a club-run league so we have the option to tweak a few things. Our lower handicappers (we don't have anyone that low, a few guys are around 8 or 9) A lot of players are mid-range, around 10-16. Problem is, we have a bunch of guys that are 25-30 handicappers. Even I have to give a bunch of strokes sometimes, which is ridiculous. Sometimes I'll go out, bogey a bunch of holes and sprinkle in a couple pars, shoot 43 which is a very good score for and get my butt kicked.

Some guys are giving 2 strokes a hole, just ridiculous. I think we are going to limit par 3's to only 1 stroke. We play from the white tees which makes for some short par 3's, no need to give 2 strokes to anyone on those holes.

**Striper** · August 1, 2007

You need to divide your players into "flights" so that 25-30 index players don't play 8-15 players.

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Handicaps just don't work for match play

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