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post #109 of 794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post

Amateur sports competitiveness has absolutely nothing to do with money. Nothing.

I'd rather beat someone at my level or better for absolutely nothing, than someone worse than me for $1,000. That's what being competitive is. Taking someone's money who legitimately beat you is just gambling...which is fun. But it is absolutely not competitive by the true athletic definition.

I would take the $1000 lol. I agree with you on your posts to a point and I have played skins with people better than me and I hate to get strokes but I hate losing money even more. Also with the attitude that getting a handicap is bad there would be no leagues at all. It's probably hard enough to put and keep a league together let alone find enough perfectly even players to play in it and nobody is showing up to have the same guy beat them over and over. I have never been in a league but I do handicap bowling leagues and it is fun and you can still push yourself to get better but still be competitive.

Now I have also seen somebody who was getting strokes lay up from roughly 150 out instead of trying to carry water just so they can win the hole and it makes me question what kind of man would give up a stroke on his score to win a skin.
post #110 of 794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by geauxforbroke View Post

 

What if you're playing with a 30 handicap? Do you play them straight up? Not much competitive value in beating someone that's worse than you, is it?

 

 

Not apples to apples. At all. A great tennis player can give you zero chance of scoring based on their play. Theoretically, I could shoot the same score if I was playing against a touring pro or a 30 handicapper. 

 

For the bold: No, I wouldn't be competing with them. I'd be having a friendly round, enjoying the game, weather, and general conversation.

 

For the non-bold: Playing against a scratch golfer gives me zero chance of winning based on their play. Apples to apples. Again, you're talking about competing with yourself...which is great, and what I do almost every time I'm on the course. 

 

The handicap system is just you competing against yourself, and your competitor competing against himself. Whoever beats themselves the best, wins.

 

Here's the deal.  I used to play regularly with a group of from 12 - 16 guys who play every Wednesday morning.  The handicaps range from 4 to about 20.  We always play skins and greenies plus a few other games from week to week.  The whole group competes, each against the others.  Without handicaps such a group of friends getting together, playing for a friendly wager, and having fun would be impossible.  Most wouldn't play without the leveling that handicaps provide.  Nobody brags afterward about who beat whom.  We are more likely to bring up unusual shots or well or poorly played holes.  And yes, it feels good to have played better than my handicap in a competitive atmosphere and to have won a few skins along the way.

 

I'm guessing that we have no common meeting ground.  I played for 22 years in a men's club - carrying a handicap in golf is as natural to me as breathing.  Playing tournament golf adds a dimension to the game that no casual round can possibly compare to.  I have never had any delusions about my skill at golf.  I was never going to be a single digit handicapper.  If I wanted to play tournament golf it was going to be in a handicap club.  I've loved every minute of it.

post #111 of 794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post

 

Just like I don't play 1 on 1 basketball with 15 year olds...I'll lose every time...

Hmmm...Haven't thought about my basketball game in a while, and I'm definitely over the hill, but I'm not sure I would concede to 15 year olds ( Just yet)..a3_biggrin.gif

 

Of course it depends on which 15 year old, as it always did.

post #112 of 794

The range doesn't give me a handicap..z6_surrender.gif

post #113 of 794
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatwoodtigerdo View Post

Also with the attitude that getting a handicap is bad there would be no leagues at all.

 

I absolutely do not have that attitude. I have nothing against the HI, and think it's great for league play for fun. It's not competition on an athletically competitive level. That was my only complaint after being called non-competitive. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

 

Here's the deal.  I used to play regularly with a group of from 12 - 16 guys who play every Wednesday morning.  The handicaps range from 4 to about 20.  We always play skins and greenies plus a few other games from week to week.  The whole group competes, each against the others.  Without handicaps such a group of friends getting together, playing for a friendly wager, and having fun would be impossible.  Most wouldn't play without the leveling that handicaps provide.  Nobody brags afterward about who beat whom.  We are more likely to bring up unusual shots or well or poorly played holes.  And yes, it feels good to have played better than my handicap in a competitive atmosphere and to have won a few skins along the way.

 

I'm guessing that we have no common meeting ground.  I played for 22 years in a men's club - carrying a handicap in golf is as natural to me as breathing.  Playing tournament golf adds a dimension to the game that no casual round can possibly compare to.  I have never had any delusions about my skill at golf.  I was never going to be a single digit handicapper.  If I wanted to play tournament golf it was going to be in a handicap club.  I've loved every minute of it.

 

We have common meeting ground. Absolutely. For the reasons you posted, the HI is great. But look at how you're describing it. "Playing for a friendly wager", "Having fun", "Played better than my handicap"...

 

All of those point to a casual, fun game. Not a gritty true sense of the word competitive nature. The part that is competitive, is "played better than my handicap" which indicates competition against yourself...which was exactly what I described. You're trying to beat yourself more than the other guy beats HIMself. You're not truly competing against the other people. 

 

One last time, I have no beef with the handicap system, I just don't buy into it for the golf I play. But I also don't play in leagues, or for skins. So take that for what it's worth.

post #114 of 794

I calculate my own it's not hard and I can update daily. Mine is current.

post #115 of 794
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatwoodtigerdo View Post

I need to find 3 guys with 25+ handicaps with that competition mentality that want to play $5 skins. Free golf would be nice.

 

Thank you.  This should have been the end of the discussion.

post #116 of 794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by whatwoodtigerdo View Post

Also with the attitude that getting a handicap is bad there would be no leagues at all.

 

I absolutely do not have that attitude. I have nothing against the HI, and think it's great for league play for fun. It's not competition on an athletically competitive level. That was my only complaint after being called non-competitive. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

 

Here's the deal.  I used to play regularly with a group of from 12 - 16 guys who play every Wednesday morning.  The handicaps range from 4 to about 20.  We always play skins and greenies plus a few other games from week to week.  The whole group competes, each against the others.  Without handicaps such a group of friends getting together, playing for a friendly wager, and having fun would be impossible.  Most wouldn't play without the leveling that handicaps provide.  Nobody brags afterward about who beat whom.  We are more likely to bring up unusual shots or well or poorly played holes.  And yes, it feels good to have played better than my handicap in a competitive atmosphere and to have won a few skins along the way.

 

I'm guessing that we have no common meeting ground.  I played for 22 years in a men's club - carrying a handicap in golf is as natural to me as breathing.  Playing tournament golf adds a dimension to the game that no casual round can possibly compare to.  I have never had any delusions about my skill at golf.  I was never going to be a single digit handicapper.  If I wanted to play tournament golf it was going to be in a handicap club.  I've loved every minute of it.

 

We have common meeting ground. Absolutely. For the reasons you posted, the HI is great. But look at how you're describing it. "Playing for a friendly wager", "Having fun", "Played better than my handicap"...

 

All of those point to a casual, fun game. Not a gritty true sense of the word competitive nature. The part that is competitive, is "played better than my handicap" which indicates competition against yourself...which was exactly what I described. You're trying to beat yourself more than the other guy beats HIMself. You're not truly competing against the other people. 

 

One last time, I have no beef with the handicap system, I just don't buy into it for the golf I play. But I also don't play in leagues, or for skins. So take that for what it's worth.

 

If you had actually done it, you couldn't say that.  You admit that you have never done it, so how can you judge it?  How can you possibly make such an absolute statement when you have never experienced that sort of competition?  It's just as "gritty" and a lot more fun than my 13 playing in futility against a 4 or 5.  Come back and tell me about it when you have played in the finals in a season long bracketed match play tournament where you have both given and received strokes and won every match to that point.  That's all I have to say about it.

post #117 of 794
I haven't updated my posted handicap since I joined last Fall. Since I've joined, my index has been as high as 7.6 and is now at the low of 6.4. I've never really thought about updating my profile...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post

All of those point to a casual, fun game. Not a gritty true sense of the word competitive nature. The part that is competitive, is "played better than my handicap" which indicates competition against yourself...which was exactly what I described. You're trying to beat yourself more than the other guy beats HIMself. You're not truly competing against the other people.

You've said this a few times, but I think differently. Sure I want to play well every time out. I'm always on a quest for lower scores... BUT, my competitive juices and mindset intensify when I'm playing against an opponent. I don't care if I'm playing an opponent straight up, I'm getting 5 strokes, or I'm giving 5 strokes. If we enter the closing stretch of the round and we are in a tight "net" game, I sure as heck know that and it motivates me even more. That's why I play most of my rounds with a group that plays for money - because of the competition!

bplewis didn't get any takers on his offer (nor should he)... Along those same lines, my group of 20 or so guys that play a money game each weekend would never be possible without the handicapping system. Heck, I'm a hack in our group, as there are multiple guys that hover around scratch. But I can tell you this, even if I've really struggled throughout the round, I'll know that my blind draw partner needs me to finish strong and I'll grind it out...

If your competitive nature is solely built upon bettering your handicap and playing against yourself, how do you stay focused when you've already shot your handicap and you still have two holes to play? Those are the rounds that I can lose interest unless there is a true competition on the line...
post #118 of 794
Quote:
Originally Posted by boil3rmak3r View Post

If your competitive nature is solely built upon bettering your handicap and playing against yourself, how do you stay focused when you've already shot your handicap and you still have two holes to play? Those are the rounds that I can lose interest unless there is a true competition on the line...

 

The round still might be one of the top 10 of the last 20, at some point over the course of your next 20 rounds. That means every stroke over those last 2 holes could still affect your handicap.

 

But I agree, it's more fun if there's a competition going. That's why I still like negotiating strokes and playing match play when playing with friends, even though I don't enjoy playing handicapped tournaments.

post #119 of 794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey View Post

Really?  I've heard people say this before, but I don't get it.  Golf is a game - and games are competitions.  I can't imagine playing golf - or anything else - where I wouldn't want to win or measure myself against anyone else.  I wouldn't go shoot hoops or play tennis without trying to win.  I wouldn't play a board game without trying to win.  If I didn't want to measure myself against others - what would get me out to practice? I want my chance to look good out there once in a while.  And maybe even talk a little friendly smack.

Maybe it is just my friend group or generation - but everything is a competition.  And I don't consider myself a competitive guy really.  I'm not going to get emotional about losing a game of Pictionary - but I'm damn sure gonna try to win while we're playing. And if my buddies or the guys at the course or whatever are shooting a certain score - I definitely don't want to be the worst.  And I'd like win sometimes.

I'm not trying to challenge your stance - and I read this I see that it seems that way.  But I'd imagine with all of the high tech equipment and swing thoughts and instruction that dominates this site / the golf channel / golf magazines, etc. - that most golfers want to be measured against others - and hope to measure up or even impress.
I like competition in most games, but in golf, I'm primarily playing against myself and the course. Which is where golf differs from a lot of games and sports. You can't play against a basketball field or a tennis court, but you can against a golf course.

We can always compare net score if we want to look at who's the better player, but I play most of my rounds alone, so there is noone to compare it to. And when I do play and compare scores, I don't really care who shoots what, I'm just focused on my own game and my own flaws. I don't care all that much what other people think of me, and I don't have a need to impress them or prove myself to anyone. When I'm out on the course, I'm focused on my game, my score and how it holds up against par.

And as far as scoring goes, I don't care that much either at this point. I could improve my putting and short game a lot by practicing it, which I haven't in years, but I don't. I could gain quite a few shots by doing this and scoring better, but I just don't care. I'm focused on the full swing and getting from tee to fairway to green. Hitting good shots is what makes me happy, even if I will 3-putt on the green or chunk a wedge.
post #120 of 794
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomK82 View Post

I calculate my own it's not hard and I can update daily. Mine is current.

Why not maintain an official one?
post #121 of 794

mine is near. i'm actually a little lower at the moment. posted a few good rounds this year

post #122 of 794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

 

If you had actually done it, you couldn't say that.  You admit that you have never done it, so how can you judge it?  How can you possibly make such an absolute statement when you have never experienced that sort of competition?  It's just as "gritty" and a lot more fun than my 13 playing in futility against a 4 or 5.  Come back and tell me about it when you have played in the finals in a season long bracketed match play tournament where you have both given and received strokes and won every match to that point.  That's all I have to say about it.

 

Sure I can. It's not a straight up athletic competition. Period. If it was, they'd give the crappier guys on the PGA tour a few strokes.

 

I'm not saying it's not fun, or that it can't get intense. I'm sure if you win, you feel great, and it's fantastic. 

 

I don't get what's so difficult about this...if you get 10 strokes, and he beats you by 5...in any real competitive nature, he beat you. Period. You lost. I understand winning that round by the handicap system, and how that's fun or how it can be exciting. But you can explain yourself 1,000...if he shot 78 and you shot 83, you lost. Every time. 

 

When money is on the line, the handicap system is great, but a true competitive person no longer sees that as a real athletic competition. It's more gambling at that point and you're just changing the over/under...

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by boil3rmak3r View Post

If your competitive nature is solely built upon bettering your handicap and playing against yourself, how do you stay focused when you've already shot your handicap and you still have two holes to play? Those are the rounds that I can lose interest unless there is a true competition on the line...

 

If you have to ask that question, you are absolutely not competitive. 

post #123 of 794
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post

 

I absolutely do not have that attitude. I have nothing against the HI, and think it's great for league play for fun. It's not competition on an athletically competitive level. That was my only complaint after being called non-competitive. 

 

 

We have common meeting ground. Absolutely. For the reasons you posted, the HI is great. But look at how you're describing it. "Playing for a friendly wager", "Having fun", "Played better than my handicap"...

 

All of those point to a casual, fun game. Not a gritty true sense of the word competitive nature. The part that is competitive, is "played better than my handicap" which indicates competition against yourself...which was exactly what I described. You're trying to beat yourself more than the other guy beats HIMself. You're not truly competing against the other people.

 

One last time, I have no beef with the handicap system, I just don't buy into it for the golf I play. But I also don't play in leagues, or for skins. So take that for what it's worth.

 

Where in the heck do you get this?  When I, or anyone else talks about "competitive" golf we're talking about one thing only.....competing to beat another golfer.  Either as part of a stroke play event, or in my case, more often in an individual match play round.  When I play for "fun".....it means that the people I'm playing with aren't interested in playing a competitive match and we just go out and knock the ball around.  Not sure what you mean by "gritty true sense of competition", but I've competed in a somewhat obscure sport (sadly, not golf.....I suck at golf) at a very high national and limited international level.  I miss that competition, but due to the relative limited access to the sport I just wasn't able to continue once I left college.  The only thing that comes close to the intensity of competition, that's available outside my back door, is golf.  And giving, or receiving handicap strokes doesn't lessen that, it actually increases the competitive aspect because I can now compete against people who would otherwise be too good or not good enough for me to challenge, or to provide me the competitive challenge that means something.

 

If you want to go out and "play against yourself" or "play against the course", that's fine, but make no mistake, the course isn't gonna kick your sorry butt and laugh at you about it as it takes your money afterward.  And THAT'S the fun part.....

 

I keep forgetting that you're relatively new to the game.  As someone who considers himself to be competitive, I genuinely hope that you break out of the "social" golfer mold that most never do, and begin to compete.  Whether in organized tournaments (handicap will be needed, even if just for flighting) or amongst your buddies and others that you meet along the way.  The one-on-one opportunity for genuine competition in this sport, even among people of differing skill levels is something hard to find elsewhere.

 

One more thing.......you keep talking about receiving 15 strokes and therefore the win will mean nothing to you.  What makes you think you're gonna win?  a2_wink.gif


Edited by David in FL - 7/26/13 at 8:18am
post #124 of 794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post

 

Period. If it was, they'd give the crappier guys on the PGA tour a few strokes.

 

This part should really sum up my point....

 

You can't tell me Tiger Woods' and Tommy Gainey's handicap would be the same...but they don't give Gainey 3-4 strokes. If the handicap system was truly competitive, why wouldn't they?

post #125 of 794
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

 

Where in the heck do you get this?  When I, or anyone else talks about "competitive" golf we're talking about one thing only.....competing to beat another golfer.  Either as part of a stroke play event, or in my case, more often in an individual match play round.  When I play for "fun".....it means that the people I'm playing with aren't interested in playing a competitive match and we just go out and knock the ball around.  Not sure what you mean by "gritty true sense of competition", but I've competed in a somewhat obscure sport (sadly, not golf.....I suck at golf) at a very high national and limited international level.  I miss that competition, but due to the relative limited access to the sport I just wasn't able to continue once I left college.  The only thing that comes close to the intensity of competition, that's available outside my back door, is golf.  And giving, or receiving handicap strokes doesn't lessen that, it actually increases the competitive aspect because I can now compete against people who would otherwise be too good or not good enough for me to challenge or to provide me the competitive challenge that means something.

 

If you want to go out and "play against yourself" or "play against the course", that's fine, but make no mistake, the course isn't gonna kick your sorry butt and laugh at you about it as it takes your money afterward.  And THAT'S the fun part.....

 

I keep forgetting that you're relatively new to the game.  As someone who considers himself to be competitive, I genuinely hope that you break out of the "social" golfer mold that most never do, and begin to compete.  Whether in organized tournaments (handicap will be needed, even if just for flighting) or amongst your buddies and others that you meet along the way.  The one-on-one opportunity for genuine competition in this sport, even among people of differing skill levels is something hard to find elsewhere.

 

One more thing.......you keep talking about receiving 15 strokes and therefore the win will mean nothing to you.  What makes you think you're gonna win?  ;-)

 

To the bold: That might be because I've been playing it for 20 years. Not sure where you came up with that stat...

 

I would love to compete, but I'll compete when I get to a level that's worth competing at. I'm fine with giving and/or getting strokes...especially if I were to put money on the line. But I win the bet or gamble, not the match. It's a completely different kind of competition. That's not competition in the same sports sense. It's just not. 

 

Now to the underlined part: Except if he gave you 7 strokes, and you "won" because you were within 3, you didn't beat him. You had a good round and/or he had a bad one...but he still beat you. Period. The true competition in the handicap system is beating yourself...that's what you really strive to do. And that's fine...but that's the only way to truly make that competitive...to think you actually beat the other guy is delusional.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

One more thing.......you keep talking about receiving 15 strokes and therefore the win will mean nothing to you.  What makes you think you're gonna win?  ;-)

 

 

Nothing makes me think I'll win. If he's giving me 15 strokes, I'll lose every time, because even on a great day for me, his 77 is gonna beat my 85. I won't consider that a "win".

post #126 of 794
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post

 

To the bold: That might be because I've been playing it for 20 years. Not sure where you came up with that stat...

 

I would love to compete, but I'll compete when I get to a level that's worth competing at. I'm fine with giving and/or getting strokes...especially if I were to put money on the line. But I win the bet or gamble, not the match. It's a completely different kind of competition. That's not competition in the same sports sense. It's just not. 

 

Now to the underlined part: Except if he gave you 7 strokes, and you "won" because you were within 3, you didn't beat him. You had a good round and/or he had a bad one...but he still beat you. Period. The true competition in the handicap system is beating yourself...that's what you really strive to do. And that's fine...but that's the only way to truly make that competitive...to think you actually beat the other guy is delusional.

 

 

 

 

Nothing makes me think I'll win. If he's giving me 15 strokes, I'll lose every time, because even on a great day for me, his 77 is gonna beat my 85. I won't consider that a "win".

 

You mentioned early on, a couple of months back when you first joined the forum, that you had played for 20 years, but only 2 or 3 rounds a year.  That only now, after finishing school were you finally getting into the game.  Not trying to knock you, but that's not an experienced, knowledgeable golfer (heck, I've played more rounds this year than you did in those 20).......certainly not one with any kind of competitive experience, and that comes through in your perspective here.

 

Now, how do you feel about losing when I give you those 15 strokes.  Does that bother you?  If not, then you're just not competitive at all.....and honestly, that's not the vibe I get. 

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