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Counterbalancing

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 

I know that the topic has come up on putting equipment. Would the benefits be similar to irons as well?

 

Just wondering how the irons would be if you made the clubhead a bit heavier, but put a counter balance in the butt end. I am not a big fan of swing weight concept. I don't get the whole, lets take 14 or 12" as an arbitrary point to say, Ok a club will feel heavier if we add more to the clubhead end. I know there alot going for MOI matched clubs. I personally think, if you want to get a true swing weight, find the true pivot point of the golf swing, maybe that's in the right wrist, you have a flat left wrist at impact, so in theory, any weight added bellow the right wrist will increase heft, above would decrease heft. This is why choking down will make the club feel lighter to a certain degree.

 

 

So lets say you work on your golf swing, you just need a bit fine tuning, would lowering the weight at the clubhead allow you to delay release into impact, maybe allow you to shift the hands forward more at impact?

post #2 of 20

I've wondered the same thing about drivers. If you were able to add weight to both the head and butt of the club, keeping the swing weight the same, but increasing the static weight, could a golfer achieve the same swing speed but transfer more energy to the ball (due to high mass of the club)? I have to think that the higher static weight would slow down swing speed, and the increase in mass would probably be less than the loss of speed, resulting in shorter shots. 

 

Ugh, physics. Now my head hurts. b3_huh.gif

post #3 of 20
Thread Starter 

it does, driver head weight usually stays around 180-200 grams.

post #4 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post

it does, driver head weight usually stays around 180-200 grams.

 

Not sure I follow what you're saying.

 

My example would be: if you had a club with a total static weight of 350 grams with a D4 swingweight, would overall distance increase if the static weight were increased to 400 grams and the swingweight remained at D4?

 

I have to think the static weight would still slow the swing down, even though the club doesn't feel any heavier. 

post #5 of 20

Ok So I am no expert on this but I think in all it would depend on the persons swing, everyone releases at different points. a Heavy club head in someone who has a late release could infact increase the speed and allow them to release earlier, but in others with an early release I can see just the opposite and it would slow the CH speed. Now counter balancing with a heavier club head "IMO" would create more distance IF you can keep your same speed at impact. again my opinion and in no way tested. I use a 30gram counter balance in my driver, mostly for feel, I'm not sure about numbers or accuracy with it,but I just feel more comfortable with a heavier club. If this confuses you more just ignore the above statment lol

post #6 of 20
Experimenting is just one of the reasons I started doing my own club work. Give it a try and see what happens.
post #7 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSinister View Post

Now counter balancing with a heavier club head "IMO" would create more distance IF you can keep your same speed at impact. 

 

No, I know that, all things held equal (including swing speed), a heavier club will deliver more energy and therefore more distance. My question was, where does the increase in mass create a decrease in clubhead speed such that distance is actually reduced? 

post #8 of 20

I just wrote a nice post and lost it. 

 

WIll post later.

 

But I was researching the topic this morning.

post #9 of 20

Go into our TST Advanced Search, and enter Counterweighting. You'll get more than a dozen threads on the topic.

post #10 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by WUTiger View Post

Go into our TST Advanced Search, and enter Counterweighting. You'll get more than a dozen threads on the topic.

 

I read through several of the threads. It looks like the discussions revolve around using counterweighting to reduce swingweight. My question revolves around adding weight to both the head and the butt so that swingweight remains constant.

post #11 of 20

Remember, most of the counterweight is under your hand - when you take your club in your hands, do you think a 20g weight will affect playing swingweight?

 

I have found, over the last 8 years or so, that I haven't noticed the effect of the cb weight during the swing as to the feel of the head.

 

Possibly, someone with a physics background can explain the cb weight effect - I can't.

 

I'd like to get on a LM and go with and without for each iron and vary the weight a bit, but I have a no access pass to a free LM.

 

At least one clubmaker, Leith Anderson (the Golf Lab) has opined that cb weights work because the balance point is moved upward, allowing the golfer more control. He reports improvement in club path and better contact that feels more solid.

 

I have about 6 20g weights left over from years ago - I put 20g in two irons - I will report that feel did improve - the club felt more solid at impact. I also saw better consistency. The problem with the consistency result is that part of my swing is coming together - thanks, Erik and Mike, it took 4 months, but finally it is taking - so I can say the solid feel is real.


Edited by Mr. Desmond - 7/25/13 at 10:35pm
post #12 of 20

Here is a summary of tests which Golfsmith did in 2004 on backweighting, or counterweighting. http://www.shottalk.com/threads/backweighting.24705/

I once came across the full Golfsmith report, but can no longer find that link.

 

I became aware of counterweighting back about 1970. Some stronger players would put a fishing weight into the butt end of their driver or 2i shafts to tame down their hands. Jack Nicklaus talks about in Golf My Way (1974). Back then, he suggested it as a solution to the balance problems of the then-lightweight aluminum shafts some club makers were making back then. Counterweighting has gotten a surge the last couple of years with the arrival of superlight graphite shafts (sup-50 gram). The Boccieri grip for drivers

 

Here's a segment from earlier comments I made on the topic:


You might read up on Sergio Garcia and his club preferences. The TV announcers said during Players that Sergio had C7 swingweight on some of his woods. Can't remember details on how he got there, but you might look it up.

 

Some golfers use counterweighting, (weight plugs in butt of shaft, or weighted Boccieri grips). Counterweighting gurus claim this helps restore feel in clubs with really lightweight shafts. Counterweight golfers end up with C-range swingweights, but reports suggest they don't notice the lower swingweight very much.

 

To read entire thread: http://thesandtrap.com/t/67018/question-about-golf-club-length#post_844675

 

For those interested in adding weight to both head and butt end of shaft to keep swing weight the same, there's a formula for it. You work with a 2:1 ratio, butt end to head.

Woods: If you add 3.7 grams to the butt and add 1.84 grams to the head, the swingweight will remain the same. (There's an excellent Golfworks diagram of this, but I don't have access to a scanner).

post #13 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by WUTiger View Post

Here is a summary of tests which Golfsmith did in 2004 on backweighting, or counterweighting. http://www.shottalk.com/threads/backweighting.24705/

I once came across the full Golfsmith report, but can no longer find that link.

 

I became aware of counterweighting back about 1970. Some stronger players would put a fishing weight into the butt end of their driver or 2i shafts to tame down their hands. Jack Nicklaus talks about in Golf My Way (1974). Back then, he suggested it as a solution to the balance problems of the then-lightweight aluminum shafts some club makers were making back then. Counterweighting has gotten a surge the last couple of years with the arrival of superlight graphite shafts (sup-50 gram). The Boccieri grip for drivers

 

Here's a segment from earlier comments I made on the topic:

 

For those interested in adding weight to both head and butt end of shaft to keep swing weight the same, there's a formula for it. You work with a 2:1 ratio, butt end to head.

Woods: If you add 3.7 grams to the butt and add 1.84 grams to the head, the swingweight will remain the same. (There's an excellent Golfworks diagram of this, but I don't have access to a scanner).

Somehow, I can NOT imagine adding 17-20g to the butt end and putting 8-10g of weight at the end of your stick. Talk about softening up the shaft! After adjusting and playing around with swingweight, adjustable weights and lead tape, I can't believe the effect of 2-4g at the end of a 40+ inch stick with a clubhead. It is significant.

 

In practice, 2:1 will be a freakin' disaster -- imho, of course.

post #14 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond View Post

Somehow, I can NOT imagine adding 17-20g to the butt end and putting 8-10g of weight at the end of your stick. Talk about softening up the shaft! After adjusting and playing around with swingweight, adjustable weights and lead tape, I can't believe the effect of 2-4g at the end of a 40+ inch stick with a clubhead. It is significant.

 

In practice, 2:1 will be a freakin' disaster -- imho, of course.

 

I'll see if I can scan the diagram and post it. The was afraid the verbal description would be murky.

post #15 of 20
Try it and see what it does. Won't be pretty.

Lol
post #16 of 20

my counter weighting system is pretty sophisticated.....I take 3 nickels and 1 penny and tape them to the end of my grip. It seems to make a difference, but I have no empirical proof of same.

post #17 of 20
Definitely need to play with this. To me it seems a little wt in the grip will help the grip drop dwn better into slot.
post #18 of 20

You guys are working too hard on this. Tour Lock Pro makes weights that insert down the shaft and then also have counter weights in their Kits.  I used to be a fitter for them and I assure you that they work.  That is what Sergio has in his clubs.  I have them in every single one of my clubs because I prefer heavy total weight and high swingweight.  I have 75 gram weights inserted 17 inches deep in all of my irons and wedges with no counterweight.  The swingweight is off the scale and doesn't register but that doesn't matter to me because I love how I can feel the clubhead tracking around me the entire swing. This immediately improved my tempo and shallowed out my AoA because my body felt the weight of the club and responded to it.  I don't get why people are so worried about heavy swingweights because all it does is accentuate the feel of the clubhead.  Total weight is the number that you want to monitor. 

 

Since the weight is only about 17 inches down the shaft I don't notice any differences in shaft flex or feel.  I absolutely despise light golf clubs because they ruin my tempo and timing and I don't feel any heft in the club to "hit against." I could literally feel my hips quit on the shot and the club would just pound steeply into the ground on the delicate touch shots. I also don't like having only counterweights because even though you are gaining some heft under your hands which is good, you are losing clubhead awareness because the swingweight is going to drop. In my opinion total weight, swingweight, and how the weight is positioned affect the way the golfer delivers the club more than anything else and these two factors are so often overlooked. I always hated aluminum bats when I played college ball because I couldn't feel the barrel of the bat so I struggled to drive the ball to the opposite field.  When I hit a wooden bat of the same specs it was like night and day as far as my ability to feel the barrel of the bat and drive the ball to the opposite field.  

 

At 6"1' 270lbs shouldn't be swinging pretty much the same clubs as the 85lb woman in the stall next to me on the range. Off the rack clubs are for women and junior golfers in my opinion because they might provide enough weight to be perceived as heavy to ensure that the muscles needed to keep the swing stable are recruited.  Of course counterbalancing is nothing new but I do think that it is misunderstood.   

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