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Stroke and distance vs pace of play - Page 2

post #19 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkuehn1952 View Post

The USGA Handicap Manual creates an interesting nuance between "Holes Not Played or Not Played Under the Principles of The Rules of Golf" and "Unfinished Holes and Conceded Strokes".  It would appear from the examples that "Unfinished Holes and Conceded Strokes" is mainly intended for match play.  All the examples deal with putting and match play scenarios.  Of course, if one is lying 5 in the bunker and your opponent is lying 2 ten feet from the hole, one can still use this particular handicap rule.

"Holes Not Played or Not Played Under the Principles of the Rules of Golf" appears to apply to our unexpected "lost ball" scenario or any other situation where a score for a hole is not achieved through play under the Rules. 

One does not have a choice between the two handicap rules.  If a player pumps two O.B. and announces "I am done with this hole", that is not considered an unfinished hole.  He records par plus whatever handicap strokes he gets along with an "x".  In a sense, the handicap system "penalizes" a player who does not play a hole or plays a hole without following the Rules.  Now one might think that writing a lower score than one likely would have recorded is hardly a penalty.  Except consider that the player who routinely quits a hole or bends/breaks the Rules is going to record a lower score for handicap purposes.  So he is going to have a lower handicap and he will be less competitive against players who play by the Rules and complete every hole.  Yes, the guy who picks up mid-hole is going to have a vanity handicap and he is going to be ripe for the picking.

In practice, it's worth mentioning that there's absolutely nothing wrong with picking up, moving on, and recording your ESC maximum once you get to that point, even though you didn't "finish" the hole.

As a reminder to all, the discussion we're having here relates to posting of a score for hcp purposes only. It has nothing to do with someone's actual score as it relates to the round itself....
post #20 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

Except that OB prohibits play, while you're perfectly capable of playing from a lateral hazard if you can find your ball.

 

OB is often quite literally off the course property. I don't think homeowners want golfers playing from their back yards, off their pool decks, out of their gardens, amidst their swingsets, etc.

 

I hit one into someone's backyard yesterday...there were no OB markers and I was awfully tempted to go hit my ball from there. Haha. 

 

I took the stroke like a man, and ended up chipping in for bogey after using my provisional. Good golf Karma for doing the right thing I guess. Haha.

post #21 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by sacm3bill View Post

 

 

First, I didn't correct you, I only challenged what you wrote. That's why I was careful to use phrases like "I wouldn't think...", and "It seems..."

 

Second, so you're saying that if someone doesn't go back and hit again on a lost ball then they are not playing under the principles of the rules of golf?  Well, isn't the same true if they fail to hole out a 6" putt? Yet you wouldn't take par + handicap strokes in that scenario - you'd take whatever you're lying before the putt and add one.

 

How do you (or the USGA if their position is indeed what you claim) rationalize taking par + handicap if you've started playing a hole and then quit after already racking up a bunch of strokes? (I'm not saying a lack of a rationale refutes your argument, I'm just curious if there is one.)

 

I wrote what the manual says, nothing more, nothing less.  Bkuehn stated it well, so I'm not going to repeat it.  Essentially you get more credit for playing by the rules than for not playing by the rules.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post

Reading & interpreting the manual 4 putts quoted, I think once you started the hole with intention of counting the score under the rule of golf, you must "eat" the +2 stroke penalty.   That's fair and within the principle of golf.  

 

No,  because there is never a guarantee that it's only a 2 stroke penalty.  I've put 3 balls in row out of play, with stroke and distance for each one, finally lying 7 in play.  If you skip that process, you are not playing under the principles of the rules of golf.  One of the basic principles is that you only put a ball in play by making a stroke, or by following the process specified under a rule.  If you put a ball in play in any other way, you are not playing under the principles of the Rules of Golf.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sacm3bill View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post

Reading & interpreting the manual 4 putts quoted, I think once you started the hole with intention of counting the score under the rule of golf, you must "eat" the +2 stroke penalty.   That's fair and within the principle of golf.  

 

To be clear, that's what I'm saying. Fourputt is saying that no, you also have the option of just taking par + any handicap strokes for that hole. 

 

I'm not saying it, the handicap manual is saying it.  I'm just the parrot. a2_wink.gif

post #22 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sacm3bill View Post

 

 

 

Second, so you're saying that if someone doesn't go back and hit again on a lost ball then they are not playing under the principles of the rules of golf?  Well, isn't the same true if they fail to hole out a 6" putt? Yet you wouldn't take par + handicap strokes in that scenario - you'd take whatever you're lying before the putt and add one.

 

How do you (or the USGA if their position is indeed what you claim) rationalize taking par + handicap if you've started playing a hole and then quit after already racking up a bunch of strokes? (I'm not saying a lack of a rationale refutes your argument, I'm just curious if there is one.)

 

 

That's covered as well, and is somewhat different than either "not playing the hole" or not playing it "under the rules"....

 

 

4-1. Unfinished Holes and Conceded Strokes

 

A player who starts, but does not complete a hole or is conceded a stroke must record for handicap purposes the most likely score. The most likely score may not exceed the player's Equitable Stroke Control limit, defined in Section 4-3. This most likely score should be preceded by an "X." (See Decision 4-1/1.)

 

 

 

 

 

Yep, well aware of that. 

 

I'm just trying to figure out what would be an example of an "unfinished hole" (other than a conceded stroke, since the rule above distinguishes the two), where you would estimate your most likely score, that *is* still played under the "principles of the rules of golf" and is therefore not covered under the "unplayed hole" rule?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bkuehn1952 View Post

The USGA Handicap Manual creates an interesting nuance between "Holes Not Played or Not Played Under the Principles of The Rules of Golf" and "Unfinished Holes and Conceded Strokes".  It would appear from the examples that "Unfinished Holes and Conceded Strokes" is mainly intended for match play.

 

 

But exercising the rule in match play is all about conceded strokes. The rule differentiates between conceded strokes and unfinished holes. So what then constitutes an unfinished hole, other than conceded strokes?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bkuehn1952 View Post

One does not have a choice between the two handicap rules.

 

This is the opposite of what Fourputt wrote - he said you *do* have a choice. You can't both be right.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bkuehn1952 View Post

If a player pumps two O.B. and announces "I am done with this hole", that is not considered an unfinished hole.  He records par plus whatever handicap strokes he gets along with an "x".  In a sense, the handicap system "penalizes" a player who does not play a hole or plays a hole without following the Rules.  Now one might think that writing a lower score than one likely would have recorded is hardly a penalty.  Except consider that the player who routinely quits a hole or bends/breaks the Rules is going to record a lower score for handicap purposes.  So he is going to have a lower handicap and he will be less competitive against players who play by the Rules and complete every hole.  Yes, the guy who picks up mid-hole is going to have a vanity handicap and he is going to be ripe for the picking.

 

You're assuming/implying that the handicap system would rather err on the side of giving someone too few strokes than too many. I think it's more likely that the handicap system is simply trying to ensure your handicap is *accurate*. If that's the case then it makes no sense to discard the 2 OB strokes you took and just take a lower score of par + handicap.

 

I'm not saying I'm right about all this, just saying what makes the most sense to me. Maybe this deserves a letter to the USGA for clarification.


Edited by sacm3bill - 7/30/13 at 11:36am
post #23 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by sacm3bill View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bkuehn1952 View Post

One does not have a choice between the two handicap rules.

 

This is the opposite of what Fourputt wrote - he said you *do* have a choice. You can't both be right.

 

 

No it isn't.  I said you have a choice of how to proceed with playing the hole.  That is what determines what part of the handicap manual applies.  Once you have made the decision to breach the Rules of Golf, you don't have any choice as to how to score the hole for handicap.  Par plus hole handicap is your only option.

 

 

Quote:

You're assuming/implying that the handicap system would rather err on the side of giving someone too few strokes than too many. I think it's more likely that the handicap system is simply trying to ensure your handicap is *accurate*. If that's the case then it makes no sense to discard the 2 OB strokes you took and just take a lower score of par + handicap.

 

I'm not saying I'm right about all this, just saying what makes the most sense to me. Maybe this deserves a letter to the USGA for clarification.

 

That is exactly what the manual is doing.  It is set up to ensure that a deliberate breach of the rules does not lead to sandbagging, essentially ensuring that you don't profit from your infraction.

post #24 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sacm3bill View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bkuehn1952 View Post

One does not have a choice between the two handicap rules.

 

This is the opposite of what Fourputt wrote - he said you *do* have a choice. You can't both be right.

 

 

No it isn't.  I said you have a choice of how to proceed with playing the hole.  

 

 

 

You said one of the options was to pick up and not finish the hole, and estimate what you would've most likely scored if you had finished:

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post


The manual also offers the option of picking up and not finishing the hole, in which case you would make your best estimate of what you would most likely have scored had you finished the under the rules....

 

bkuehn said if you quit in the middle of a hole, it's not an unfinished hole, it's an unplayed hole and you'd take par + handicap strokes:

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bkuehn1952 View Post

One does not have a choice between the two handicap rules.  If a player pumps two O.B. and announces "I am done with this hole", that is not considered an unfinished hole.  He records par plus whatever handicap strokes he gets...

 

Those statements cannot both be true.

post #25 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by sacm3bill View Post

 

You said one of the options was to pick up and not finish the hole, and estimate what you would've most likely scored if you had finished:

 

 

bkuehn said if you quit in the middle of a hole, it's not an unfinished hole, it's an unplayed hole and you'd take par + handicap strokes:

 

 

Those statements cannot both be true.

 

Fourputt is correct. 

 

An example of  "unplayed" holes would be getting rained out after finishing 16 holes.  17 and 18 would be unplayed.  For posting purposes you would post par + handicap strokes received for each.  Once you begin playing the hole, if you do not finish it for whatever reason (usually in a match play situation where you're out of the hole, or just playing with your buddies and you get fed up), it's not "unplayed", it's "unfinished".  You post the score you would have "most likely made", not to exceed your ESC maximum.

post #26 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by sacm3bill View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sacm3bill View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bkuehn1952 View Post

One does not have a choice between the two handicap rules.

 

This is the opposite of what Fourputt wrote - he said you *do* have a choice. You can't both be right.

 

 

No it isn't.  I said you have a choice of how to proceed with playing the hole.  

 

 

 

You said one of the options was to pick up and not finish the hole, and estimate what you would've most likely scored if you had finished:

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post


The manual also offers the option of picking up and not finishing the hole, in which case you would make your best estimate of what you would most likely have scored had you finished the under the rules....

 

bkuehn said if you quit in the middle of a hole, it's not an unfinished hole, it's an unplayed hole and you'd take par + handicap strokes:

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bkuehn1952 View Post

One does not have a choice between the two handicap rules.  If a player pumps two O.B. and announces "I am done with this hole", that is not considered an unfinished hole.  He records par plus whatever handicap strokes he gets...

 

Those statements cannot both be true.

 

According to another discussion on this same board, he is wrong about that, because I raised the same point, was told in no uncertain terms that I was wrong.  Just because the statement about an unfinished hole may be directed at a concession in match play, it doesn't specifically limit it to that.  Thus to pick up and not finish a hole when it's impractical to proceed correctly under a stroke and distance penalty is more correct than finishing the hole under a principle not in keeping with the rules. 

post #27 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sacm3bill View Post

 

You said one of the options was to pick up and not finish the hole, and estimate what you would've most likely scored if you had finished:

 

 

bkuehn said if you quit in the middle of a hole, it's not an unfinished hole, it's an unplayed hole and you'd take par + handicap strokes:

 

 

Those statements cannot both be true.

 

Fourputt is correct. 

 

An example of  "unplayed" holes would be getting rained out after finishing 16 holes.  17 and 18 would be unplayed.  For posting purposes you would post par + handicap strokes received for each.  Once you begin playing the hole, if you do not finish it for whatever reason (usually in a match play situation where you're out of the hole, or just playing with your buddies and you get fed up), it's not "unplayed", it's "unfinished".  You post the score you would have "most likely made", not to exceed your ESC maximum.

 

I agree with what you wrote there. Where I disagree with Fourputt is that I don't think you *also* have the option of scoring it as an unplayed hole. To sum up:

 

- I think the hole must be scored as unfinished.

- bkuehn thinks the hole must be scored as unplayed.

- Fourputt thinks you have the option of either.

 

Email to USGA sent, we'll see what they have to say.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post


According to another discussion on this same board, he is wrong about that, because I raised the same point, was told in no uncertain terms that I was wrong.  Just because the statement about an unfinished hole may be directed at a concession in match play, it doesn't specifically limit it to that.  Thus to pick up and not finish a hole when it's impractical to proceed correctly under a stroke and distance penalty is more correct than finishing the hole under a principle not in keeping with the rules. 

 

I'd be interested in perusing that thread if you have a link - perhaps it will enlighten me.

post #28 of 52

Hmm seems the handicap system is a lot more different in Netherlands or I just don't know the stableford rules that well.

In our country when you want to lower your handicap you just walk a Q-card which require you to have more then 36 points to lower your handicap. So if you don't follow the rules on a hole you can't score there and simply can't just put down a 7 on a par 5 on the card.

Or am i missunderstanding something now.

post #29 of 52

I am certainly no expert on the Handicap Manual and I tried to convey that idea in my original comment.  I believe the writers of the Handicap manual did not intend for a player to have a choice in proceeding under either "Holes Not Played or Not Played Under the Principles of The Rules of Golf" and "Unfinished Holes and Conceded Strokes".  Depending on how one defines "unfinished", there could be some overlap but I do not think there was an intent by the writer to offer a choice. 

 

As all the examples in "Unfinished Holes and Conceded Strokes" are match play (or team better ball), my inference is that this handicap rule is directed at match play hole concessions.  For example, Player A makes a hole-in-one.  Player B hits his shot into the bunker.  Player B concedes the hole and probably should record a "4 x" for handicap scoring purposes unless his sand save percentage exceeds 50%. There is no definition of "unfinished hole" so I can't state with 100% certainty that pumping 2 shots O.B. from the tee and declaring you are done is not an unfinished hole versus a hole "Not Played Under the Principles of the Rules of Golf".

 

Ultimately, David in FL had the best comment.  Once one's score is equal to or over the appropriate ESC, for handicap purposes there is no harm in picking up and moving on.  If you are lying 10 in the bunker during casual play, I doubt the writer of the handicap manual would have a problem with your picking up and writing down the ESC, regardless of  "Holes Not Played or Not Played Under the Principles of The Rules of Golf" and "Unfinished Holes and Conceded Strokes". 

post #30 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

 

No,  because there is never a guarantee that it's only a 2 stroke penalty.  I've put 3 balls in row out of play, with stroke and distance for each one, finally lying 7 in play.  If you skip that process, you are not playing under the principles of the rules of golf.  One of the basic principles is that you only put a ball in play by making a stroke, or by following the process specified under a rule.  If you put a ball in play in any other way, you are not playing under the principles of the Rules of Golf.

 

 

 

I agree with that.   I should have said that it would be at least 2 stroke penalty in essence.   But on a busy day, I will get kicked out of the course if I keep hitting provisions ....  that's my excuse for just hitting one provision a3_biggrin.gif

post #31 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by sacm3bill View Post

 

I agree with what you wrote there. Where I disagree with Fourputt is that I don't think you *also* have the option of scoring it as an unplayed hole. To sum up:

 

- I think the hole must be scored as unfinished.

- bkuehn thinks the hole must be scored as unplayed.

- Fourputt thinks you have the option of either.

 

Email to USGA sent, we'll see what they have to say.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post


According to another discussion on this same board, he is wrong about that, because I raised the same point, was told in no uncertain terms that I was wrong.  Just because the statement about an unfinished hole may be directed at a concession in match play, it doesn't specifically limit it to that.  Thus to pick up and not finish a hole when it's impractical to proceed correctly under a stroke and distance penalty is more correct than finishing the hole under a principle not in keeping with the rules. 

 

I'd be interested in perusing that thread if you have a link - perhaps it will enlighten me.

 

You keep saying that I'm saying things I'm not.  Let's try it once again:

 

If you start a hole and don't finish, i.e you pick up, that's one thing.  For the hole played by the rules but not finished, best estimate of what you would have made had you finished.

 

If you don't play a hole that is a second thing.  For the unplayed hole - par plus handicap.

 

If you play a hole outside of the rules of golf that's a third thing.  For the hole played outside of the rules - par plus handicap.  Because it wasn't played under the rules, it's treated as unplayed.

 

Each of those is a finite act, and none offers any choice as to how to proceed for scoring that hole.  For the earlier scenario of knocking a couple of tee shots out of bounds then choosing not to play the hole, that is an unplayed hole because a ball was never put into play, so it's scored as par plus handicap.  

 

These are set procedures with no choice as how the holes are scored for handicap.

post #32 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaapB View Post

Hmm seems the handicap system is a lot more different in Netherlands or I just don't know the stableford rules that well.

In our country when you want to lower your handicap you just walk a Q-card which require you to have more then 36 points to lower your handicap. So if you don't follow the rules on a hole you can't score there and simply can't just put down a 7 on a par 5 on the card.

Or am i missunderstanding something now.

 

Nope, you're right.  You play under the CONGU handicap system which has some distinct differences from the USGA handicap system.

post #33 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

 

You keep saying that I'm saying things I'm not.  Let's try it once again:

 

If you start a hole and don't finish, i.e you pick up, that's one thing.  For the hole played by the rules but not finished, best estimate of what you would have made had you finished.

 

If you play a hole outside of the rules of golf that's a third thing.  For the hole played outside of the rules - par plus handicap.  Because it wasn't played under the rules, it's treated as unplayed.

 

Rick, I think he's saying this:

 

You start the hole, hit your approach OB or lose it, and can't go back to re-hit, so you've effectively "picked up" and should mark the likely score.

 

I think that a golfer would be wrong to write down par + handicap, especially if they don't stroke on that hole, or they're an 18 that gets a stroke but they're already sitting at +2 from the added strokes/penalties.

 

So the "picking up because you can't reasonably go back and re-play from the location of your last stroke" is kind of BOTH situations, and I don't agree with you (if you're the one saying it) that it should be treated more as the latter than the former.

post #34 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

Rick, I think he's saying this:

 

You start the hole, hit your approach OB or lose it, and can't go back to re-hit, so you've effectively "picked up" and should mark the likely score.

 

I think that a golfer would be wrong to write down par + handicap, especially if they don't stroke on that hole, or they're an 18 that gets a stroke but they're already sitting at +2 from the added strokes/penalties.

 

So the "picking up because you can't reasonably go back and re-play from the location of your last stroke" is kind of BOTH situations, and I don't agree with you (if you're the one saying it) that it should be treated more as the latter than the former.

This is exactly what I think sacm was saying as well, and exactly what makes perfect (common) sense to me too.  At least in my case, as a single digit handicap, where I am never getting more than one stroke per hole.  In the offered scenario, if I were to pick up and call it par + strokes, then I would be posting lower than I'd end up getting 99.99% of the time.  My ESC is double bogey and I cannot tell you the last time that I have bogeyed a hole after going OB.  A double is a pretty safe bet here, I'd say.

 

I'd go one step further and say that if you are supposed to put down par + cap for any unplayed holes, then it makes logical sense that you should be required to put down par + cap + 2 for this scenario because you'd be hitting 3 off the tee already.

post #35 of 52
Thread Starter 

Can someone explain what ESC is?

post #36 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pappy091 View Post

Can someone explain what ESC is?

 

It's a maximum score that any player can post for handicap reporting purposes ONLY on any given hole.  It's based on the players course handicap.  It does NOT affect the score that a player achieved for the hole, or the round, again, it's only an adjustment used in handicap reporting to keep a relatively few "blow up" holes from influencing someones handicap more than they should.

 

From the USGA Handicap Manual:

 

4-3. Equitable Stroke Control

 

All scores for handicap purposes, including tournament scores, are subject to the application of Equitable Stroke Control (ESC). This mandatory procedure reduces high hole scores for handicap purposes in order to make handicaps more representative of a player's potential ability.

 

A handicap determined from scores to which ESC has not been applied may not be termed a Handicap Index.

 

ESC is used when a player's actual or most likely score exceeds a maximum number, based on the table below, for the player's Course Handicap from the tees played. (For nine-hole Equitable Stroke Control table, See Section 10-5c.)

f10d4ff4-50d3-4c21-9805-dc905269c1de.gif


 

Example: A player with a Course Handicap of 6 has a maximum number of par plus two strokes (double bogey) for any hole. A player with a Course Handicap of 13 has a maximum number of 7 for any hole regardless of par. A player with a Course Handicap of 42 has a maximum number of 10 for any hole.

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