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Orange Whip or Medicus Hinge Club in bag = 15th club? - Page 2

post #19 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rulesman View Post

 

 

Manufacturers usually design their products to fulfill the purpose they advertise them for. "Our revolutionary, next generation driver training aid! " 

I would suggest that medicus designed their Dual-Hinge Driver as an aid not in order to strike a ball.

 

They specifically say the PowerMax is a hittable club "The PowerMaximus™ is the only hittable weighted driver ......"

 

There's great peril in "tugging on Superman's cape," but there doesn't seem such a fine line between training aid and non-conforming club. I don't think that we should concern ourselves with what the advertising says.

 

If it has a clubhead and a shaft - no matter how goofy - the device should be called a "club." (I'd be willing to exclude some child's toys and some novelty items.)

 

If it has a clubhead and no shaft or a shaft and no clubhead or no clubhead and no shaft it cannot be a club and thus should be called a training aid.

post #20 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogolf View Post


The Rules of Golf define a club in Appendix II and further in the "Guide to the Rules on Clubs and Balls" (which is also part of the Rules).

"A club is an implement designed to be used for striking the ball....   composed of a shaft and a head" 

An implement with a shaft and head designed for striking a ball is a club, whether it is conforming or not.  Manufacturers may advertize their product as a "training aid", but that doesn't mean the product is not a club under the Rules of golf.

So there is no "training club" per se. It's either a club or not. That probably makes the most sense.....

Thanks.
post #21 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rulesman View Post

 

 

Manufacturers usually design their products to fulfill the purpose they advertise them for. "Our revolutionary, next generation driver training aid! " 

I would suggest that medicus designed their Dual-Hinge Driver as an aid not in order to strike a ball.

 

They specifically say the PowerMax is a hittable club "The PowerMaximus™ is the only hittable weighted driver ......"

 

There's great peril in "tugging on Superman's cape," but there doesn't seem such a fine line between training aid and non-conforming club. I don't think that we should concern ourselves with what the advertising says.

 

If it has a clubhead and a shaft - no matter how goofy - the device should be called a "club." (I'd be willing to exclude some child's toys and some novelty items.)

 

If it has a clubhead and no shaft or a shaft and no clubhead or no clubhead and no shaft it cannot be a club and thus should be called a training aid.

 

Johnny Miller was penalized for having his son's toy club in his bag.  Unbeknownst to him, the kid stuck the club in Daddy's bag, and it was so short that it wasn't discovered until he was playing in a tournament.

post #22 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

 

Johnny Miller was penalized for having his son's toy club in his bag.  Unbeknownst to him, the kid stuck the club in Daddy's bag, and it was so short that it wasn't discovered until he was playing in a tournament.

 

Was it anything like this:

 

edushape Racing Cars Mini Golf Set

post #23 of 44

Hey, regarding the 'rod'. After finishing a hole a player may take some practice (swings) strokes on the green. Could he place a rod on the green and then take those practice strokes?  Can he use a ball to practice on the green just finished if he putts away from the hole? This would be testing the green but after the fact, so to speak. 

post #24 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by joekelly View Post

Hey, regarding the 'rod'. After finishing a hole a player may take some practice (swings) strokes on the green. Could he place a rod on the green and then take those practice strokes?  Can he use a ball to practice on the green just finished if he putts away from the hole? This would be testing the green but after the fact, so to speak. 

 

The short version is: No, probably and no.

post #25 of 44

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joekelly View Post

Hey, regarding the 'rod'. After finishing a hole a player may take some practice (swings) strokes on the green. Could he place a rod on the green and then take those practice strokes?  Can he use a ball to practice on the green just finished if he putts away from the hole? This would be testing the green but after the fact, so to speak. 

Yes, you may make practice swings on the green after finishing the hole.

No, he could not use an alignment rod for those practice swings - penalty is DQ.  However, could use the flagstick without penalty.

Yes, the Rules permit a player to practice putt with a ball on the putting green of the hole last played, in any direction - unless the Committee in charge of the competition have implemented a condition of competition prohibiting this practice (which the PGA Tour does implement).

 

post #26 of 44

On the Medicus issue, I looked pretty carefully on their website and nowhere was there any claim that it was legal to carry it during a round.  Since that exact claim was (correctly) made in the case of both the Orange Whip and the Gold Flex one would have to assume that IF it was legal to carry the medicus during a round they would say so.  They don't, hence my conclusion would be that it is not.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by joekelly View Post

Hey, regarding the 'rod'. After finishing a hole a player may take some practice (swings) strokes on the green. Could he place a rod on the green and then take those practice strokes?  Can he use a ball to practice on the green just finished if he putts away from the hole? This would be testing the green but after the fact, so to speak. 

 

To the first, no.  Someone was just DQed from an event within the last few weeks for just this infraction.  It was after a rain delay and they were given permission to take practice putts on a an actual green   The player used an alignment device while doing so and got DQed.

 

Ah, found it.  It was Jeff Overton at the Colonial.

 

http://www.cbssports.com/golf/blog/eye-on-golf/22302248/jeff-overton-disqualified-from-colonial-after-illegal-use-of-putting-aid

 

As to the second question, so long as there is not a condition of competition prohibiting it, it is perfectly legal to practice putting and chipping on the hole just completed provided it does not unduly delay play.  Rule 7-2a

post #27 of 44

Who determines what something is designed for? The designer or a user?

I wasn't aware that the USGA designed the medicus devices.

post #28 of 44

I'm quite sure the USGA or R&A decide whether it is a club or training device based on the sample submitted for their review.  The manufacturer would have little or no input other than submitting the required sample for evaluation.

post #29 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogolf View Post

I'm quite sure the USGA or R&A decide whether it is a club or training device based on the sample submitted for their review.  The manufacturer would have little or no input other than submitting the required sample for evaluation.


Which is exactly what happened in the case of the Orange Whip.  They submitted a sample to the USGA and got an opinion letter.  So they are free to advertise that their device can be carried during a round with no violation.  If Medicus had done the same and gotten such a letter then I think they would include that fact in their advertising.  So I suspect they either did not submit a sample or they did and got an adverse ruling. 

post #30 of 44

I can use the putting rods on the practice green before the match begins, right?  But once the match starts no rods may be used. Now, in Overton's case the play was suspended due to weather and later he, and others, were told that they may practice putting on nearby green, not the practice green.  So when does the stipulated round, once suspended, begin anew? In the case of darkness the round is delayed for say, 15 hours. May a player use the rods on the  practice green the next day before the suspended round begins again?

post #31 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by joekelly View Post

I can use the putting rods on the practice green before the match begins, right?  But once the match starts no rods may be used. Now, in Overton's case the play was suspended due to weather and later he, and others, were told that they may practice putting on nearby green, not the practice green.  So when does the stipulated round, once suspended, begin anew? In the case of darkness the round is delayed for say, 15 hours. May a player use the rods on the  practice green the next day before the suspended round begins again?

 

 

There is no set limitation in the rules.  The exception to Rule 7-2 seems to place in the hands of the competition committee where practice is allowed, it doesn't say if there are any limitations as to how the player can conduct practice.   I didn't find any prohibitions, but that doesn't mean that I didn't miss something.

 

Quote:

7-2. During Round

A player must not make a practice stroke during play of a hole.

Between the play of two holes a player must not make a practice stroke, except that he may practice putting or chipping on or near:

a. the putting green of the hole last played,

b. any practice putting green, or

c. the teeing ground of the next hole to be played in the round, provided a practice stroke is not made from a hazard and does not unduly delay play (Rule 6-7).

Strokes made in continuing the play of a hole, the result of which has been decided, are not practice strokes.

Exception: When play has been suspended by the Committee, a player may, prior to resumption of play, practice (a) as provided in this Rule, (b) anywhere other than on the competition course and (c) as otherwise permitted by the Committee.

post #32 of 44

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joekelly View Post

I can use the putting rods on the practice green before the match begins, right?  But once the match starts no rods may be used. Now, in Overton's case the play was suspended due to weather and later he, and others, were told that they may practice putting on nearby green, not the practice green.  So when does the stipulated round, once suspended, begin anew? In the case of darkness the round is delayed for say, 15 hours. May a player use the rods on the  practice green the next day before the suspended round begins again?

IIRC, Overton used the rods during a delay in play, not when play was suspended, hence the penalty - during the stipulated round.  Might need some follow-up.

post #33 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

 

The Orange Whip is a training aid, not a club.  The Medicus?  Not so sure about that.  I sure wouldn't carry one in my bag.  I used to have a heavy club for winter conditioning, and it qualified as a club (8I loft) even though it had an illegal grip, but it was never in my golf bag.  Why take any of them on the course with you if you aren't allowed to use them?  The only thing in my bag like that is the doughnut that I use for a few warmup swings right before teeing off on #1.  

 

We had to disqualify a guy in one of our tournaments for carrying one of them in his bag (he was actually dq'ed for signing an incorrect scorecard, not necessarily for having the club). He was leading the tournament after the first day and a kid cleaning the clubs asked the Head of Outside Operations what it was. The Head of Outside Operations (who is a PGA Pro) asked the player if he had it in his bag during the round and he said yes. I thought it was a little unfair because he obviously had no intent to use it, but thems the rules.

The kid who dimed was devastated but he didn't do anything wrong.

post #34 of 44
Thread Starter 

So, we have established that the Medicus is a club, (but a non-conforming club) and counts as part of the club count in your bag. Therefore, you could carry it along with 13 other clubs and swing it all you want during the round, just so long as you don’t strike the ball with it?

post #35 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyThursday View Post
 

So, we have established that the Medicus is a club, (but a non-conforming club) and counts as part of the club count in your bag. Therefore, you could carry it along with 13 other clubs and swing it all you want during the round, just so long as you don’t strike the ball with it?

 

No.  Although it may be considered a nonconforming club, it's still a swing trainer and as such the rules do not allow its use during a round.

 

Quote:
 

14-3/10

Use of Training or Swing Aid During Round

Q.During a round, may a player make a stroke or a practice swing using a club with a weighted headcover or "doughnut" on it, or use any other device designed as a training or swing aid?

A.No. The player would be using an artificial device to assist him in his play in breach of Rule 14-3, but see also Decision 4-4a/7 for use of a weighted training club.

post #36 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyThursday View Post

So, we have established that the Medicus is a club, (but a non-conforming club) and counts as part of the club count in your bag. Therefore, you could carry it along with 13 other clubs and swing it all you want during the round, just so long as you don’t strike the ball with it?

Carrying a non-conforming club is a breach of Rule 4-1 even if you have 14 clubs or less.
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