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Hinge and Hold versus Bounce? - Page 2  

post #19 of 73

My best guess is that I think Phil sticks to saying "hold" more than he does it himself to help a majority of people understand a little what he's doing. In his book he describes himself as allowing some release of the clubhead, but "holding his hands slightly in front of the clubhead". This I think is because it's much more difficult to explain (as you have been doing, Iacas) what he is actually doing and tries to let people who want to go more in-depth look at the pictures and figure a little more out for themselves.

Phil just tries to make his technique more understandable to the masses without having a back and forth discussion of what really is going on when he hits a pitch. As you said, feeling something doesn't mean you're doing something and I know that even when I feel like I really "hold" I am still releasing the clubhead to a point where the bounce comes into play. This is evidenced by the fact that I can feel the club slide along the turf rather than dig in. It's actually quite hard and takes a lot of effort to "hold" the clubhead that far behind your hands when you are trying to hit it solid consistently.

 

I could be wrong though, just let me know on whether this sounds plausible or not.

post #20 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

If Phil wants to try to redefine "hold" to mean a transient alignment of the shaft up the lead arm, then I think he's doing a disservice. That's not how people will take it, nor is it how I've seen him describe it in various videos.

OK. You're entitled to your view - but boogielicious and pretzel seem to have taken the same understanding as I have. Maybe we can agree that golf could survive having fewer 3 word abbreviated concepts.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

Nor would it warrant a thread with this title, since as I said the pitching technique I teach often has an inline condition at impact. So there is really no "versus" to be had.
 

"versus" was only in the sense of "compared to". I never said or implied that there weren't some commonalities. In fact, that was rather the point of the thread starter.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

And yes, I've taught pitching to chronic flippers. They do as well as anyone else.

 

Do you do or emphasise anything different with a flipper, compared to someone who comes to you with lots of lag and shaft lean?

 

What do you make of Phil's explanation in that video that if you let the club pass the hands, you add too much bounce and raise the leading edge and blade the shot? Is that a likely cause of bladed shots generally - or do you see different causes at play?

post #21 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretzel View Post

My best guess is that I think Phil sticks to saying "hold" more than he does it himself to help a majority of people understand a little what he's doing. In his book he describes himself as allowing some release of the clubhead, but "holding his hands slightly in front of the clubhead". This I think is because it's much more difficult to explain (as you have been doing, Iacas) what he is actually doing and tries to let people who want to go more in-depth look at the pictures and figure a little more out for themselves.

Phil just tries to make his technique more understandable to the masses without having a back and forth discussion of what really is going on when he hits a pitch. As you said, feeling something doesn't mean you're doing something and I know that even when I feel like I really "hold" I am still releasing the clubhead to a point where the bounce comes into play. This is evidenced by the fact that I can feel the club slide along the turf rather than dig in. It's actually quite hard and takes a lot of effort to "hold" the clubhead that far behind your hands when you are trying to hit it solid consistently.

 

I could be wrong though, just let me know on whether this sounds plausible or not.

Sounds reasonable to me. I'd agree that chip shots with Phil's technique require more shaft lean than his pitch shots. So "hinge and hold" spans a spectrum, to achieve different shots and trajectories. But so does the release that Stan Utley describes.

 

Phil emphasises keeping the hands and arms moving towards the target and getting the leading edge under the ball. Utley emphasises the release. But then Phil likes super-lofted wedges and opening the face, whilst Utley likes a square clubface and thinks 58* of loft is plenty.

post #22 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post


And yes, I've taught pitching to chronic flippers. They do as well as anyone else.

 

Yay! c2_beer.gif

 

post #23 of 73
Quote:

Originally Posted by birlyshirly View Post


What do you make of Phil's explanation in that video that if you let the club pass the hands, you add too much bounce and raise the leading edge and blade the shot? Is that a likely cause of bladed shots generally - or do you see different causes at play?

 

Bladed shots are not caused by to much bounce. what causes bladed shots is to much shaft lean. What happens is, players tend to not want to duff a chip, so they instead raise up trying to pick it clean, and they hit the leading edge. Cause when a person lifts up, they are slowing down there body turn, being to exact with the shot, and the clubhead starts to pass the hands as they are lifting up. The classic blade shot. Given you could blade shots when you flip, if you flip so bad that the lead edge gets to the equator of the ball, but that's one hell of a flip.

 

As for using bounce, i've take 3/4 swings from 50 yards in the fairway, had the ball up in my stance, using my 12 degree of bounce wedge, and catch the ball just a little fat, the club will slide under the ball because of the bounce. I've had a few wedges hit hardpan the same way, it might bounce up a bit, but not enough to cause a blade, the club still gets under the ball. It just feels weird compared to a normal shot, kinda clanky, but nothing to bad.

 

Honestly, its very hard to bounce the club into the ball, like what the most complaint about to much bounce is, unless you have a extremely steep angle of attack with the pitch shot. What i found is, with Erik's technique on pitching, the angle of attack is much shallower. In physics, when you bounce a ball or object, its exit angle is usually close to the entry angle. So if you take a shallow bounce, lets say 2-3 degrees, it will only bounce upward 2-3 degrees. Take an amateur who comes down steep, like 8 degrees, its going to bounce the club higher if you hit the ground first. 

post #24 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by birlyshirly View Post

OK. You're entitled to your view - but boogielicious and pretzel seem to have taken the same understanding as I have. Maybe we can agree that golf could survive having fewer 3 word abbreviated concepts.

 

 

"versus" was only in the sense of "compared to". I never said or implied that there weren't some commonalities. In fact, that was rather the point of the thread starter.

 

 

 

Do you do or emphasise anything different with a flipper, compared to someone who comes to you with lots of lag and shaft lean?

 

What do you make of Phil's explanation in that video that if you let the club pass the hands, you add too much bounce and raise the leading edge and blade the shot? Is that a likely cause of bladed shots generally - or do you see different causes at play?

I understand what Phil is saying, but I agree with Erik on what is actually happening.  I think the "Hold" part is more of a swing thought than an actual hold.  Dick Stockton talks about keeping the back of the left hand moving toward the target in a chip, but he acknowledges that it is only a momentary thing at impact.  I use the pitch technique that Erik and Stan Utley describe a lot.

post #25 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by birlyshirly View Post

OK. You're entitled to your view - but boogielicious and pretzel seem to have taken the same understanding as I have. Maybe we can agree that golf could survive having fewer 3 word abbreviated concepts.

I agree exactly with Iacas on what Phil actually does, but he does something different than what he says. He does something much more complicated than just "hinge and hold", or at least it seems more complicated when you try to explain it. In reality it's a much smoother motion that allows for greater touch and feel on shots around the green.

Side note: I noticed my chips were being hit with a closed/square stance today. Opened it back up to about 25*-ish out from my target line and instantly gained consistency. I was also able to land it so much softer on downslopes, which was nice to see.

post #26 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by birlyshirly View Post

OK. You're entitled to your view - but boogielicious and pretzel seem to have taken the same understanding as I have.

 

I don't know that they do. a3_biggrin.gif I think most golfers when you tell them "hinge and hold" don't think of what you're describing, but rather would say what I'm describing - retaining more of the angle in the trail wrist - is what Phil is saying. Virtually every golfer who has demonstrated "hinge and hold" to me truly "holds" a lot of the angle in their trail wrist well into the follow-through, and consequently, has a LOT of shaft lean and uses primarily leading edge.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by birlyshirly View Post

"versus" was only in the sense of "compared to". I never said or implied that there weren't some commonalities. In fact, that was rather the point of the thread starter.

 

I understand that. And for 99% of golfers, I think "hinge and hold" is a chipping technique or thought or feel, while using the bounce is very much more towards the pitching end of the spectrum.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by birlyshirly View Post

Do you do or emphasise anything different with a flipper, compared to someone who comes to you with lots of lag and shaft lean?

 

Not as a rule, no, nor generally speaking. If anything, the flipper sometimes (barely) has an easier time with it because they already flip a little, and they're already comfortable with the elbows and wrists breaking down just after impact. If they actively try to throw out the trail wrist angle that's a problem, but a lot of good players do that too because they're actively trying to "slide" the clubhead under the ball.

 

So - by a very small margin - better players are sometimes tougher to teach this to than flippers because flippers are happy to let go of control, while the better player feels they need to remain in control and are thus less likely (again by a very small margin) to "let go" and "let gravity do the work for them" (that's close to a feel - obviously the technique uses more than "gravity").

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by birlyshirly View Post

What do you make of Phil's explanation in that video that if you let the club pass the hands, you add too much bounce and raise the leading edge and blade the shot? Is that a likely cause of bladed shots generally - or do you see different causes at play?

 

He's wrong. Bladed shots come from a low point that's too far before or after the golf ball, and an AoA that's too severe. If you have a very shallow AoA, you can have a low point that's within about +/- 3 inches of the golf ball and hit perfectly good shots.

 

Even off a wooden deck. A little depends on the grind and sole width - even a wide soled club with 0° of bounce will elevate the leading edge quite a bit if you flip the clubhead past your hands.

 

I feel this is kind of an odd question to ask if you've truly read a lot of the pitching threads here. I've answered it several times, in a fair amount of detail. I've had students attest on this forum to how easy using the bounce is even on firm hardpan. The shallow AoA takes care of a lot.

 

The clubhead passes my hands prior to impact on many of the really high shots I'm attempting to hit. Those shots are rare, but I can hit them off concrete if I need to. And we have some Phantom camera high speed (12k FPS) video footage of these that we may release SOME day (in the future). But you can probably see some of them here: http://thesandtrap.com/t/60526/erik-hitting-a-few-chips-and-pitches .

 

BTW: 2:00, 2:25, 3:00 = "hinge and hold." 3:18 = the first "use of bounce" and look at the shaft lean there (and how quickly it goes away). 7:00 has a "high pitch" which still has a forward leaning shaft. And yes, that's an over-simplification, but that's how most people take "hinge and hold" - far more like the 2:00, 2:25, and 3:00 shots than any of the "pitches" that follow.

post #27 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

Virtually every golfer who has demonstrated "hinge and hold" to me truly "holds" a lot of the angle in their trail wrist well into the follow-through, and consequently, has a LOT of shaft lean and uses primarily leading edge.

 

Exactly, you hinge your wrists and hold that angle, no other way to interpret it and it's how Phil demonstrates it here

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

He's wrong. Bladed shots come from a low point that's too far before or after the golf ball, and an AoA that's too severe. If you have a very shallow AoA, you can have a low point that's within about +/- 3 inches of the golf ball and hit perfectly good shots.

 

 

Yep

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas View Post


Also, Phil doesn't "hold" anywhere near as much as he implies on most of his shots.

At the end it boils down to forgiveness. Pitches give you a wider margin of error.

 

Chip vs pitch

 

post #28 of 73

My issue with chipping is predicting how much it will check up.  With pitches, it is very predictable.  With chips with good contact, the spin can really stop the chip dead and not get the roll out I want.  I will chip for shorter shots (10 - 20 feet), but for longer ones, it is almost always a pitch.  I have been using the Utley methods mostly.

 

I am in the midst of reading Dave Stockton's, Unconscious Scoring.  I will write a review when I am done.  He talks mainly about determining whether your shot should be high or low from looking at the lie.  In the first few chapters it appears that he prefers the low shot (chip).  He states that if you can get the club face on the back of the ball, then you should chip unless you need to fly it.  If you can't, i.e., there is grass between the face and ball, then you pitch.

 

My question on this is this seems counter to what I would do.  If the ball is down in the rough, I fear that the pitch will have trouble getting down to the ball.  I usually chip it out in this situation because I feel that I can get the club face to the ball better and I attack it a bit steeper.  If there is no significant clump of grass behind the ball, I will pitch.

 

Am I over-thinking this?

post #29 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by boogielicious View Post

Am I over-thinking this?

 

Probably. a3_biggrin.gif

 

It's probably OT and I'm trying to respect the topic, but very briefly my answer would be that almost no shots are pure pitch or pure chip. Some shots, if you remember the thread I linked to just above, have pitch backswings and chip follow-throughs. And virtually EVERY shot fits somewhere between the "pitch" and "chip" extremes of "use the bounce" and "use the leading edge" with corresponding differences to the AoA, club choice, ball position, etc.

 

Quite honestly when I see a shot around the greens I just step up and hit it. I don't ask myself whether it's a pitch or a chip, or 40% of the way towards a chip, or whatever - I just hit it. I see the trajectory, the roll-out, and then I produce the mechanics to create what I see (ideally, of course - I'm not claiming to do it EVERY time! :D).

post #30 of 73

I'll start another thread.

post #31 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

Probably. a3_biggrin.gif

 

It's probably OT and I'm trying to respect the topic, but very briefly my answer would be that almost no shots are pure pitch or pure chip. Some shots, if you remember the thread I linked to just above, have pitch backswings and chip follow-throughs. And virtually EVERY shot fits somewhere between the "pitch" and "chip" extremes of "use the bounce" and "use the leading edge" with corresponding differences to the AoA, club choice, ball position, etc.

 

Quite honestly when I see a shot around the greens I just step up and hit it. I don't ask myself whether it's a pitch or a chip, or 40% of the way towards a chip, or whatever - I just hit it. I see the trajectory, the roll-out, and then I produce the mechanics to create what I see (ideally, of course - I'm not claiming to do it EVERY time! :D).

I like this ...

 

I was in a position yesterday - off the green about 15 feet, not much room, about 15 feet to green, thin lie ... couldn't decide what to do. Wanted to give it a little air and roll - indecisiveness caused an indifferent shot. Should have just gone up to the ball and let playing instinct take over - just hit it.

post #32 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

Probably. a3_biggrin.gif

 

It's probably OT and I'm trying to respect the topic, but very briefly my answer would be that almost no shots are pure pitch or pure chip. Some shots, if you remember the thread I linked to just above, have pitch backswings and chip follow-throughs. And virtually EVERY shot fits somewhere between the "pitch" and "chip" extremes of "use the bounce" and "use the leading edge" with corresponding differences to the AoA, club choice, ball position, etc.

 

Quite honestly when I see a shot around the greens I just step up and hit it. I don't ask myself whether it's a pitch or a chip, or 40% of the way towards a chip, or whatever - I just hit it. I see the trajectory, the roll-out, and then I produce the mechanics to create what I see (ideally, of course - I'm not claiming to do it EVERY time! :D).

 

Pretty much, how many times do you see a guy think over a short game shot just to dub it. I get in trouble when i start thinking to much of what i want to do, and then i get stuck between to ideas, and i end up not committing to the shot.

 

Its kinda like when a person misses a putt, they spend so much time on that one putt. Then they take a redo practice putt and the results are 1000x better. Yea, sometimes its best to just get out of your own head.

post #33 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

I don't know that they do. a3_biggrin.gif

Well, I don't know what else to say after re-reading posts 9, 10 and 11 above a1_smile.gif

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

 I think most golfers when you tell them "hinge and hold" don't think of what you're describing, but rather would say what I'm describing - retaining more of the angle in the trail wrist - is what Phil is saying. Virtually every golfer who has demonstrated "hinge and hold" to me truly "holds" a lot of the angle in their trail wrist well into the follow-through, and consequently, has a LOT of shaft lean and uses primarily leading edge.

 

So, how (roughly) much shaft lean is too much, would you say? Assuming an average, off the shelf sand wedge?

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

Not as a rule, no, nor generally speaking. If anything, the flipper sometimes (barely) has an easier time with it because they already flip a little, and they're already comfortable with the elbows and wrists breaking down just after impact. If they actively try to throw out the trail wrist angle that's a problem, but a lot of good players do that too because they're actively trying to "slide" the clubhead under the ball.

 

So - by a very small margin - better players are sometimes tougher to teach this to than flippers because flippers are happy to let go of control, while the better player feels they need to remain in control and are thus less likely (again by a very small margin) to "let go" and "let gravity do the work for them" (that's close to a feel - obviously the technique uses more than "gravity").

 

 

 

Interesting. So would you say then that almost everyone gains enough (given the margin for error permitted by bringing the bounce into play) control over lowpoint through Key 2 (and perhaps Key 1?), that they don't need to concern themselves with Key 3 when pitching?

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

He's wrong. Bladed shots come from a low point that's too far before or after the golf ball, and an AoA that's too severe. If you have a very shallow AoA, you can have a low point that's within about +/- 3 inches of the golf ball and hit perfectly good shots.

 

Even off a wooden deck. A little depends on the grind and sole width - even a wide soled club with 0° of bounce will elevate the leading edge quite a bit if you flip the clubhead past your hands.

 

I feel this is kind of an odd question to ask if you've truly read a lot of the pitching threads here. I've answered it several times, in a fair amount of detail. I've had students attest on this forum to how easy using the bounce is even on firm hardpan. The shallow AoA takes care of a lot.

 

The clubhead passes my hands prior to impact on many of the really high shots I'm attempting to hit. Those shots are rare, but I can hit them off concrete if I need to. And we have some Phantom camera high speed (12k FPS) video footage of these that we may release SOME day (in the future). But you can probably see some of them here: http://thesandtrap.com/t/60526/erik-hitting-a-few-chips-and-pitches .

 

 

 

I don't know that the wooden deck, or even the car park or cart path, is a good test here. Now I'll start by admitting that this is course condition specific. But I grew up on an unwatered links in Scotland. In (a good) summer, lying in its natural state, there were shots that no decent player would attempt to hit with their sand wedge - because the tightness of the lie wouldn't give you a decent shot at good contact. Narrow soled pitching wedges with 50* or more of loft (this was the early 80s) were used as much around the green as sand wedges. These lies were hard and bare, and sloping and uneven - which is where I think the cart path or wooden deck or hitting off the green breaks down as an analogy.

 

What I can tell you is that, for a while, there was a wooden path of old wooden railway sleepers sitting maybe 40 or 50 yards from a green. As kids, one of our entertainments was hitting wedges off the wooden sleepers to the green. We all learned to hit this shot with sand wedges, but still learned to be wary of the bounce in other marginal lies found around the course.

 

Even now - playing a much lusher, but not manicured, parkland course - I still find lies on and off the fairway that I feel demand something different from stock in order to make contact. I probably hit a soft wedge, using the bounce - the majority of the time from what I consider straightforward lies. But then there are still a few shots where I very much like Phil's emphasis on driving the leading edge under the ball.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

 

BTW: 2:00, 2:25, 3:00 = "hinge and hold." 3:18 = the first "use of bounce" and look at the shaft lean there (and how quickly it goes away). 7:00 has a "high pitch" which still has a forward leaning shaft. And yes, that's an over-simplification, but that's how most people take "hinge and hold" - far more like the 2:00, 2:25, and 3:00 shots than any of the "pitches" that follow.

 

 

Don't get me wrong. I've seen that video before, and I like it. But what I think is notable in the context of this discussion is your opening remark about still keeping low point in front of the ball for most shots. As you've said - you're still hitting lots (a majority?) of pitch shots with hands at least level with the ball. That still seems to me an important part of technique. I don't have the Mickelson video, but I've got the book. For pitch shots - "hands level with the ball" is his criteria for achieving solid contact - and "hinge and hold" is his feel or swing thought for achieving that. Common sense, as well as your experience with real golfers, suggests that even good things can be overdone. So I'd always be in favour of using video to corroborate the feel of lining up the lead arm and club - not flipping, but not digging the leading edge either.

 

You already own Key 3 - so to me it makes sense that your feels stress the freedom of movement and the club passing the arm (even if it doesn't!)

 

But I don't think it's far-fetched to suppose that some golfers are out there who need help with "de-flipping" their short game given the videos and training aids that seem to have turned a fair penny to that end. 

 

Now I'm not saying this is your view or your fault - but I sense there's a danger that just as some people will (evidently!) misconstrue or exaggerate "hinge and hold", there are going to be some people who pick up the erroneous idea that so long as they're flipping a wedge with enough bounce past their hands, they don't need to worry about where their low point is.

post #34 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post

 

Bladed shots are not caused by too much bounce[...]

If that's true - do you think there's ever such a thing as too much bounce? Or just poor technique?

post #35 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by birlyshirly View Post

So, how (roughly) much shaft lean is too much, would you say? Assuming an average, off the shelf sand wedge?

 

Too much for what? It's not an answerable question. What kind of shot are you playing? What are the conditions? Where's the flag? Slopes? Stimp? Competition scenario? Bounce? What kind of shaft? Ball? Etc.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by birlyshirly View Post

Interesting. So would you say then that almost everyone gains enough (given the margin for error permitted by bringing the bounce into play) control over lowpoint through Key 2 (and perhaps Key 1?), that they don't need to concern themselves with Key 3 when pitching?

 

The 5 Simple Keys® is a full-swing concept. It is not a short game system.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by birlyshirly View Post

In (a good) summer, lying in its natural state, there were shots that no decent player would attempt to hit with their sand wedge - because the tightness of the lie wouldn't give you a decent shot at good contact. Narrow soled pitching wedges with 50* or more of loft (this was the early 80s) were used as much around the green as sand wedges.

 

And I would suggest those players simply didn't know the proper technique. I've taught several players to play from hardpan. A shallow AoA is key.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by birlyshirly View Post

Even now - playing a much lusher, but not manicured, parkland course - I still find lies on and off the fairway that I feel demand something different from stock in order to make contact. I probably hit a soft wedge, using the bounce - the majority of the time from what I consider straightforward lies. But then there are still a few shots where I very much like Phil's emphasis on driving the leading edge under the ball.

 

So that's you. And I'm not saying you play a pitch from hardpan all over the place - you don't if you don't need the loft, etc. Sometimes I chip from hardpan. Sometimes I play a low, driving, spinny shot. But a pitch is possible.

 

Go ahead and keep trying to compartmentalize or put things in boxes. It doesn't work that way, not for how I play, nor how I teach this stuff. It's all on a gradient.

 

My point in saying that I can hit a pitch off hard cement, etc. is simply to illustrate that you can use a shallow AoA and still use a club with 22° of bounce to play perfectly good shots.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by birlyshirly View Post

For pitch shots - "hands level with the ball" is his criteria for achieving solid contact - and "hinge and hold" is his feel or swing thought for achieving that.

 

And again, I'll say this, but for the last time: you say "hinge and hold" to average golfers who know a little about technique, and NONE of them are going to demonstrate Phil's pitching technique. They're going to demonstrate his chipping technique. They're going to retain more of the trail wrist angle, resist letting the clubhead pass the hands, and so on. They're going to show you the left side of the picture in post #27.

 

Again, if Phil means exactly what I teach in pitching (i.e. which is very close to what he does), then I stand by my earlier remarks that he's doing a disservice in calling it "hinge and hold." Or, perhaps more likely, "hinge and hold" is not his pitching technique, it's his basic chipping technique.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by birlyshirly View Post

You already own Key 3 - so to me it makes sense that your feels stress the freedom of movement and the club passing the arm (even if it doesn't!)

 

It does. It's just right after impact with most pitch shots.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by birlyshirly View Post

But I don't think it's far-fetched to suppose that some golfers are out there who need help with "de-flipping" their short game given the videos and training aids that seem to have turned a fair penny to that end.

 

I can't say I've had any problems teaching flippers to pitch properly. Sorry. :-)

 

As I'm now unclear on what the purpose of this thread is, I'm likely done now. Please clarify in a sentence or two if you could. Thank you.

post #36 of 73
Thread Starter 

If you're feeling done - then I don't really want to prolong things. You've responded fully and generously to a number of questions - for which I'm grateful. You've also restated your own views on pitching and chipping very clearly. It does seem like there's a couple of issues where you really just don't want to engage - and I'm happy to call it a day at that.

 

We don't need an executive summary. You've got an audience willing to wade through 50 pages of complaints about long hitting high handicappers - they should be able to cope with a 2 page (illustrated) thread on pitchinga1_smile.gif. Of course, if there's something you think I haven't answered or addressed - then please say and I'll respond as best I can.

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