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Hinge and Hold versus Bounce? - Page 3  

post #37 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by birlyshirly View Post

If you're feeling done - then I don't really want to prolong things. You've responded fully and generously to a number of questions - for which I'm grateful. You've also restated your own views on pitching and chipping very clearly. It does seem like there's a couple of issues where you really just don't want to engage - and I'm happy to call it a day at that.

 

I don't feel like there are any issues on which I don't want to engage. I just don't know what they are. I feel I've answered everything, and at the end of the day you're unlikely to convince me that "hold" is going to be read as "inline at impact but passing quickly" like Phil does when he hits pitch shots. :-)

post #38 of 73
Thread Starter 

Well - the main issue that I thought you somewhat skirted around was how to gain some control over lowpoint.

 

The way you're teaching pitching, I see the emphasis on maximising forgiveness. Which is great - we all need a bit of that.

 

But if it's not clear from my comments above, I still feel that it's desirable to have some reasonably fine control of where the club bottoms out. THAT's where I feel the emphasis is in the way that Mickelson describes "hinge and hold" in a pitching scenario.  Although I think we both agree that he still has the bounce in play and is benefitting from some forgiveness in the strike.

 

You'll need to forgive me if you've covered control of lowpoint in one of the other pitching threads - but this just seemed to me to be something you would have naturally covered responding to either post 33, if not 20, above. 

post #39 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by birlyshirly View Post

But if it's not clear from my comments above, I still feel that it's desirable to have some reasonably fine control of where the club bottoms out.

 

I have reasonably fine control for where the club bottoms out in my pitching stroke. You seem to be assuming that because I say it's forgiving, that I need that forgiveness for most or all of my shots. I do not. Occasionally it comes in handy, though - see also: Hunter Mahan, Ryder Cup.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by birlyshirly View Post

You'll need to forgive me if you've covered control of lowpoint in one of the other pitching threads - but this just seemed to me to be something you would have naturally covered responding to either post 33, if not 20, above. 

 

I don't suppose I thought that is what you meant because I didn't consider that you would read "provides forgiveness" as "reduces your ability to control low point." It does not. The club bottoms out where I tell it to - that's why the pitching technique I prefer is great out of bunkers, too, where you really need to take the proper (and very small) amount of sand).

post #40 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

I have reasonably fine control for where the club bottoms out in my pitching stroke. You seem to be assuming that because I say it's forgiving, that I need that forgiveness for most or all of my shots. I do not. Occasionally it comes in handy, though - see also: Hunter Mahan, Ryder Cup.

 

 

I don't suppose I thought that is what you meant because I didn't consider that you would read "provides forgiveness" as "reduces your ability to control low point." It does not. The club bottoms out where I tell it to - that's why the pitching technique I prefer is great out of bunkers, too, where you really need to take the proper (and very small) amount of sand).


 

Yep, when i do bunker shots right, its like the club slides through the same like a hot knife through bunker. Rarely do i have to hit a ton of sand.

post #41 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post


 
Yep, when i do bunker shots right, its like the club slides through the same like a hot knife through bunker. Rarely do i have to hit a ton of sand.
Bunkers killed me tonight. Just really compacted. The fairway bunkers were great because I could just hit a regular iron shot but it was so hard to have any distance control in the green side bunkers with the sand so compacted. I suppose I could have just stayed out of the bunkers but I didn't think of that.
post #42 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

I have reasonably fine control for where the club bottoms out in my pitching stroke. You seem to be assuming that because I say it's forgiving, that I need that forgiveness for most or all of my shots. I do not. Occasionally it comes in handy, though - see also: Hunter Mahan, Ryder Cup.

 

 

I don't suppose I thought that is what you meant because I didn't consider that you would read "provides forgiveness" as "reduces your ability to control low point." It does not. The club bottoms out where I tell it to  [...]

I don't make that assumption at all.

 

I haven't said, or implied, that your emphasis on forgiveness is at the expense of controlling low point. I'm just saying that I don't see much in  your pitching discussions about how you control low point. You DO say, in your video where you hit a variety of chips and pitches, that you still want low point to occur beyond impact (See, I AM paying attentiona1_smile.gif), but I don't really see much explanation of how you exercise that control.

 

I tried to make an educated guess earlier, where I asked:

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by birlyshirly View Post

 

 So would you say then that almost everyone gains enough (given the margin for error permitted by bringing the bounce into play) control over lowpoint through Key 2 (and perhaps Key 1?), that they don't need to concern themselves with Key 3 when pitching?

 

 

Your response:

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

The 5 Simple Keys® is a full-swing concept. It is not a short game system.

 

 

 

... sounded to me like reluctance to engage with the substantive point. After all, whether you're pitching or driving, your weight and your head still need to be somewhere and there has to be some angle in the left wrist.

post #43 of 73
Low point is controlled by the location of the weight and properly loading and unloading of the "lag" you build up, the same as any shot.

As I've said happy to answer any questions, you just need to make clearer what they are.

And as I said, the "Keys" remain a full swing concept.
post #44 of 73

Actually Iacas, if you actually watch his video secrets of the short game he absolutely explains everything you are arguing.  If you watch the video you will understand it as well.  You are arguing the word hold in his method yet he completely explains the difference in that angle as the swing gets longer.  You might want to watch it it's a great video and anyone can learn something from it...

post #45 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattM View Post
 

Actually Iacas, if you actually watch his video secrets of the short game he absolutely explains everything you are arguing.  If you watch the video you will understand it as well.  You are arguing the word hold in his method yet he completely explains the difference in that angle as the swing gets longer.  You might want to watch it it's a great video and anyone can learn something from it...

 

I have not seen it but be careful utilizing any instructional advice from players.  They are not instructors and more than likely describing what they FEEL, not what actually happens.  To utilize the bounce of any club, there can't be very much handle lean.  This isn't opinion, just the way it is.

post #46 of 73

Thank you for your concern but I own the video and can tell you that he completely explains what he is talking about and yes for the most part the hinge and hold is more for chipping, however, I use it anywhere from 80 yards out.  It's very accurate and stops the ball on a dime.

 

You guys talking crap on his method would be like me talking crap on the five keys after watching 5 minutes worth.

 

Again if you actually watch his video you will see a detailed explanation of what he is talking about and its backed up by high speed video over his entire swing.  If you watch the high speed version you will see that he does in fact hold the angle until after contact and its a very easy method to get.

 

Please watch the video before talking his method down if not you are just giving uninformed opinions.  You would be very upset if he did the same to your videos.  Just saying.

post #47 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvmac View Post
 

 

I have not seen it but be careful utilizing any instructional advice from players.  They are not instructors and more than likely describing what they FEEL, not what actually happens.  To utilize the bounce of any club, there can't be very much handle lean.  This isn't opinion, just the way it is.

About the bounce.  He actually explains different shots from different lies that actually utilize the bounce of the club.  This is easily the most detailed video on chipping!

post #48 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattM View Post
 

If you watch the high speed version you will see that he does in fact hold the angle until after contact and its a very easy method to get.

 

I have the video too. Been awhile since I watched it, but no, he does not "hold the angle." The angle is constantly decreasing from the top of the backswing to and just after impact when it comes out completely and the shaft passes the lead arm.

 

We aren't dismissing something we've never seen. We've seen Phil playing live, hitting pitch shots live, on slow motion video, etc. He does not "hold the angle" (as in the SAME angle) throughout the downswing and up to impact on anything but the simplest, shortest of chip shots.

 

NOBODY is arguing that he doesn't have SOME angle left. So do I: the video in this thread includes this as the first "standard pitch shot" I hit in the video, for example:

 

post #49 of 73

Ok Eric this is what I mean by you guys need to watch the video!  You are arguing a language.  What he means by "hold the angle," is not hold the perfect angle exactly how you hinged and hold that.  No, what he is saying is that you hinge then hold AN ANGLE with your hands in front of the club face.

 

Again!  NOT THE EXACT ANGLE but AN ANGLE.  He also explains exactly why he trains people in that.

 

You just explained his way of pitching!  The only difference is that he hinges early that's all!

 

Also, just to point out....I was an 18 handicap when I got that video and after a year of using these methods I'm a 12.

 

Again....you guys should DEF watch the video.

post #50 of 73

Just to make sure no one takes me out of context with my explanations.....By angle I meant hands in front of the club face.

post #51 of 73

Ok I found his explanation.  I will try to find the part where he talks about the angle breaking down the longer the swing is.

 

post #52 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattM View Post
 

Ok Eric this is what I mean by you guys need to watch the video!

 

I have, and my name is Erik.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattM View Post
 

You are arguing a language.  What he means by "hold the angle," is not hold the perfect angle exactly how you hinged and hold that.  No, what he is saying is that you hinge then hold AN ANGLE with your hands in front of the club face.

 

Again!  NOT THE EXACT ANGLE but AN ANGLE.  He also explains exactly why he trains people in that.

 

Am I arguing language? Yes, but it turns out, language is important.

 

"Hold" implies to most people that the same angle is being "maintained." If I say "hold that there" it doesn't mean move it around slowly. The angle is dissipating - that's virtually the opposite of "hold."

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattM View Post
 

You just explained his way of pitching!  The only difference is that he hinges early that's all!

 

That's not the only difference… because I teach an early hinge too. I also phrase "hinge and hold" better by not using the word "hold" when I mean "throwing out the angle". :-D

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattM View Post
 

Ok I found his explanation.  I will try to find the part where he talks about the angle breaking down the longer the swing is.

 

That video poorly explains it IMO. I disagree with his use of the word "hold."

 

That's what it boils down to, and I think I've said this enough different times now that I feel I've made my case. I don't like the word "hold" to describe what he's doing, because he's not "holding" anything. "Hold" is a synonym for "maintain" more than it is a synonym for "constantly decrease but not quite so much that it's flipped at impact."

 

P.S. If you need to, please edit posts rather than making three posts minutes apart.

post #53 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

I have, and my name is Erik.


Am I arguing language? Yes, but it turns out, language is important.

"Hold" implies to most people that the same angle is being "maintained." If I say "hold that there" it doesn't mean move it around slowly. The angle is dissipating - that's virtually the opposite of "hold."


That's not the only difference… because I teach an early hinge too. I also phrase "hinge and hold" better by not using the word "hold" when I mean "throwing out the angle". a3_biggrin.gif


That video poorly explains it IMO. I disagree with his use of the word "hold."

That's what it boils down to, and I think I've said this enough different times now that I feel I've made my case. I don't like the word "hold" to describe what he's doing, because he's not "holding" anything. "Hold" is a synonym for "maintain" more than it is a synonym for "constantly decrease but not quite so much that it's flipped at impact."

P.S. If you need to, please edit posts rather than making three posts minutes apart.
You know what Erik (sorry I got your name wrong) I'm going to just stop arguing with you on this.

I can tell you that anyone reading this thread is going to read you saying that Phil does a disservice to people and just tune out.

You need to keep in mind that even though you think you have a better explanation of a pitch shot or that your method is better etc.... Phil has sold MILLIONS of these videos as well as his books and I and pretty much everyone I know that has it (oh and everyone who rates it on amazon) has found this method invaluable to pitching and chipping and it works.

BTW you pitching off concrete really says nothing about your method.  Can someone who has only been playing a few years who you taught that pitch to a year ago do that?  I'm sure Phil can take his pitch method and do exactly the same thing.

That said I do think that concrete shot was impressive, but I'm pretty sure you have been playing for quite a while.
post #54 of 73
Matt I watched Erik's quickie pitching video in April and in a few hours learned it. I honestly feel I've mastered it in less than a season. I'm not discrediting Phil's video I've never seen it. But do you think that video is popular because of the method he teaches or because its Phil? I have tried the hinge and hold(saw a YouTube video on it) and I like that method for chipping but its a much more precise shot for pitching than Erik's method. Obviously Phil knows what he is doing and he is one of the best short game players ever but that doesn't mean he's the only one who has an idea of how to hit good pitch shots?
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