Unplayable Lie - Odd Scenario

**rehmwa** · August 19, 2013

So you hit to a hole and the ball kicks sideways and comes up against a fence that's perpendicular to the pin. (edge of course, etc etc)

(example - Par 3, you hit pin high, but it kicks straight left off the green and rolls down against a barb wire fence the runs down the left side of the fairway - straight fence, and you are straight out from the pin)

You can't drop on the line as you go outside that fence. So option b is out.

You can't drop within two club lengths because that half circle lies on the fence line or on the wrong side of it. i.e., the only playable ground withing two clubs of the ball are all nearer the hole. So option c is out.

Do you have to go back and rehit?

If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke :

a. Proceed under the stroke and distance provision of Rule 27-1 by playing a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5 ); or

b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or

c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole .

If the unplayable ball is in a bunker , the player may proceed under Clause a, b or c. If he elects to proceed under Clause b or c, a ball must be dropped in the bunker .

When proceeding under this Rule, the player may lift and clean his ball or substitute a ball.

**MyrtleBeachGolf** · August 19, 2013

I'd say your only 2 options is to play it as it lies (possibly hit it back toward the tee and maybe away from the fence) or you would have to re-tee and hit number 3 from there under stroke and distance.

**Fourputt** · August 19, 2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by rehmwa

So you hit to a hole and the ball kicks sideways and comes up against a fence that's perpendicular to the pin. (edge of course, etc etc)

(example - Par 3, you hit pin high, but it kicks straight left off the green and rolls down against a barb wire fence the runs down the left side of the fairway - straight fence, and you are straight out from the pin)

You can't drop on the line as you go outside that fence. So option b is out.

You can't drop within two club lengths because that half circle lies on the fence line or on the wrong side of it. i.e., the only playable ground withing two clubs of the ball are all nearer the hole. So option c is out.

Do you have to go back and rehit?

If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke:

a. Proceed under the stroke and distance provision of Rule 27-1 by playing a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or

b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or

c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.

If the unplayable ball is in a bunker, the player may proceed under Clause a, b or c. If he elects to proceed under Clause b or c, a ball must be dropped in the bunker.

When proceeding under this Rule, the player may lift and clean his ball or substitute a ball.

You say a barbed wire fence. Is that a normal 2 or 3 strand fence? The reason I ask is that you are allowed to stand out of bounds to play a ball which lies in bounds. I don't know if that is a reasonable option in your case, but if so, it might save you from having to return to the tee. You might be able to just punch the ball away from the fence far enough to make a normal stroke with your 3rd shot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyrtleBeachGolf

I'd say your only 2 options is to play it as it lies (possibly hit it back toward the tee and maybe away from the fence) or you would have to re-tee and hit number 3 from there under stroke and distance.

Yep. That's why there are 3 options aside from playing it as it lies.

**reedf** · August 19, 2013

Sorry guys, this is why you pay attention in geometry!

If you were to stretch a line from the pin to your ball, this is the radius of your circle that is the distance from the hole. If you proceed to follow that radius around the circumference you will see that if the fence truly runs parallel with the hole, the circumference of your distance to the hole circle will immediately leave the fence line. This leaves a drop area, albeit small, on the inbounds side of the fence. So option 3 is NOT out as you thought, and is probably the better option.

To go along with Fourputt's suggestion of playing from the other side of the fence, if it were a solid fence, it is legal to hit the back of the fence to propel the ball forward and off the fence as well.

**Fourputt** · August 19, 2013

Originally Posted by reedf

Sorry guys, this is why you pay attention in geometry!

If you were to stretch a line from the pin to your ball, this is the radius of your circle that is the distance from the hole. If you proceed to follow that radius around the circumference you will see that if the fence truly runs parallel with the hole, the circumference of your distance to the hole circle will immediately leave the fence line. This leaves a drop area, albeit small, on the inbounds side of the fence. So option 3 is NOT out as you thought, and is probably the better option.

To go along with Fourputt's suggestion of playing from the other side of the fence, if it were a solid fence, it is legal to hit the back of the fence to propel the ball forward and off the fence as well.

But with only 2 clublengths to work with, you aren't gong to gain enough distance from the fence for it to matter.

**rehmwa** · August 19, 2013

Originally Posted by reedf

Sorry guys, this is why you pay attention in geometry!

If you were to stretch a line from the pin to your ball, this is the radius of your circle that is the distance from the hole. If you proceed to follow that radius around the circumference you will see that if the fence truly runs parallel with the hole, the circumference of your distance to the hole circle will immediately leave the fence line. This leaves a drop area, albeit small, on the inbounds side of the fence. So option 3 is NOT out as you thought, and is probably the better option.

To go along with Fourputt's suggestion of playing from the other side of the fence, if it were a solid fence, it is legal to hit the back of the fence to propel the ball forward and off the fence as well.

I was going to run the numbers too, so I'm glad you brought it up. Please fix my math if I messed up. No one said there'd be math.

Geometry - go ahead and draw it out. Here's your assumptions: we'll keep it simple and big numbers. Agree that the distance from the hole is tangential to the fence and moves away from the fence when moving along the circumferential drawn by the big radius. Let's see if that's practical.

Distance from ball to hole: Let's assume it's 50 feet. My scenario was about 20 yards, so close enough.

Distance from ball to fence: Let's assume it rolled right up against the fence.

Typical Club length: heck, let's round up and say 5 feet.

2 club lengths = 10 feet

diameter of the big circle - 2 x pi x 50 = 314 feet

degrees around the big circle you can move out = 10/314 x 360 = 11.5 degrees

So, (I'll simplify the geometry a little bit) = the distance from the fence on a line 11.5 degrees off of the ball =

50/cos11.5 = (((about 51 feet))

so we got 51-50 = 1 foot of space with which to swing....."albeit a small" (drop area from fence) is quite an understatement

(I actually thought it was less than a foot, so that's something) - (more realistic calcs give us about 6-7 inches of relief)

I like your other idea - bank it off the hard wall. but this was a wire fence line on the woods. so no dice.

Actually - I need to look up relief from man made obstacles and see if there's another option.

**Jeremie Boop** · August 19, 2013

Originally Posted by Fourputt

But with only 2 clublengths to work with, you aren't gong to gain enough distance from the fence for it to matter.

I'm not sure how that is. 2 club lengths would be using the longest club aka the driver *usually* and would equal roughly 90" or 7 1/2 feet. 7 1/2 feet from the point where the ball lies against the fence following the circumference of equadistance from the hole should give you more than enough room to swing the club IF the fence is straight and not curving towards the hole.

**rehmwa** · August 19, 2013

Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop

I'm not sure how that is. 2 club lengths would be using the longest club aka the driver *usually* and would equal roughly 90" or 7 1/2 feet. 7 1/2 feet from the point where the ball lies against the fence following the circumference of equadistance from the hole should give you more than enough room to swing the club IF the fence is straight and not curving towards the hole.

Draw the picture, do the math. Was my math wrong. Half a foot isn't much room to swing.

(assumes you're 20 yards from the pin, and the club is 4 feet long.)

I think this falls under "man made obstacles" anyway (provided they aren't part of a boundary).

Such as when the pros come up next to the grandstands..... that's a bit less of a penalty for sure......

here's a scale pic that shows 40 feet from the pin, and you own a 5 foot long driver..... you can move in the distance of that little wedge the arrows are pointing at

if you are off the green and up against a fence, you'll likely be farther than 40 feet (13 yards) - so that little wedge is even narrower

**Jeremie Boop** · August 19, 2013

Originally Posted by rehmwa

Draw the picture, do the math. Was my math wrong. Half a foot isn't much room to swing.

(assumes you're 20 yards from the pin, and the club is 4 feet long.)

I think this falls under "man made obstacles" anyway (provided they aren't part of a boundary).

Such as when the pros come up next to the grandstands..... that's a bit less of a penalty for sure......

here's a scale pic that shows 40 feet from the pin, and you own a 5 foot long driver..... you can move in the distance of that little wedge the arrows are pointing at

if you are off the green and up against a fence, you'll likely be farther than 40 feet (13 yards) - so that little wedge is even narrower

You don't need to take a shot directly at the pin though, that 6" allows for a sideways more diagonal swing which allows you to advance the ball. That was what the discussion was about, correct, allowing enough clearance to swing and make contact with the ball to advance it?

**David in FL** · August 19, 2013

You don't need to take a shot directly at the pin though, that 6" allows for a sideways more diagonal swing which allows you to advance the ball. That was what the discussion was about, correct, allowing enough clearance to swing and make contact with the ball to advance it?

But remember, you're doing that under penalty of one stroke. You're still likely to be much better off replaying from the tee. Regardless though, the diagram demonstrates just how little help 2 club lengths gives you under that scenario.

**Jeremie Boop** · August 19, 2013

Originally Posted by rehmwa

Draw the picture, do the math. Was my math wrong. Half a foot isn't much room to swing.

(assumes you're 20 yards from the pin, and the club is 4 feet long.)

I think this falls under "man made obstacles" anyway (provided they aren't part of a boundary).

Such as when the pros come up next to the grandstands..... that's a bit less of a penalty for sure......

here's a scale pic that shows 40 feet from the pin, and you own a 5 foot long driver..... you can move in the distance of that little wedge the arrows are pointing at

if you are off the green and up against a fence, you'll likely be farther than 40 feet (13 yards) - so that little wedge is even narrower

Also, the scale seems a bit off given your numbers. The smaller circle should be 1/4 of the size of the larger circle, since you get 2x the club length *5 ft from your numbers* which is 10 ft radius. The larger circle has a 40 ft radius. Would make some difference in the outcome I'd think.

**rehmwa** · August 19, 2013

Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop

Also, the scale seems a bit off given your numbers. The smaller circle should be 1/4 of the size of the larger circle, since you get 2x the club length *5 ft from your numbers* which is 10 ft radius. The larger circle has a 40 ft radius. Would make some difference in the outcome I'd think.

Yup - you are right. I should have a 10 foot radius, not a 10 foot diameter. the picture is wrong and only shows one club length

nice catch.

the math was still right - I think in this scenario (40 feet is tiny, so that helps) - you get the ball out from the fence about 15.5 inches instead of the drawing (one club length which gives relief of a little less than half that of course around 4 inches....).

( the other point about just hitting it back out in the fairway is a good point and a real option, but not what I was looking at...I really did want the point about hitting it in any direction I want)

I think this is beat to death now. THANKS all

I'm still wondering if this is more a "man made obstruction" question now though (if it was a tree, we could just drop to the side and swing).

good thing straight walls tend to not be natural - (except in landscaping.....sigh)

**Fourputt** · August 19, 2013

Originally Posted by rehmwa

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop

Also, the scale seems a bit off given your numbers. The smaller circle should be 1/4 of the size of the larger circle, since you get 2x the club length *5 ft from your numbers* which is 10 ft radius. The larger circle has a 40 ft radius. Would make some difference in the outcome I'd think.

Yup - you are right. I should have a 10 foot radius, not a 10 foot diameter. the picture is wrong and only shows one club length

nice catch.

the math was still right - I think in this scenario (40 feet is tiny, so that helps) - you get the ball out from the fence about 15.5 inches instead of the drawing (one club length which gives relief of a little less than half that of course around 4 inches....).

( the other point about just hitting it back out in the fairway is a good point and a real option, but not what I was looking at...I really did want the point about hitting it in any direction I want)

I think this is beat to death now. THANKS all

I'm still wondering if this is more a "man made obstruction" question now though (if it was a tree, we could just drop to the side and swing).

good thing straight walls tend to not be natural - (except in landscaping.....sigh)

10 foot radius? That's a 60" club. That's about right for a broomstick putter for Shaq, but unless you're 7' tall, I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. My driver has a 35" shaft, add maybe 4 more for the head, and you still come up under 40". Twice that is 78" or a 6½ foot radius, so the diagram isn't that far off.

**tristanhilton85** · August 20, 2013

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by rehmwa

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop

Also, the scale seems a bit off given your numbers. The smaller circle should be 1/4 of the size of the larger circle, since you get 2x the club length *5 ft from your numbers* which is 10 ft radius. The larger circle has a 40 ft radius. Would make some difference in the outcome I'd think.

Yup - you are right. I should have a 10 foot radius, not a 10 foot diameter. the picture is wrong and only shows one club length

nice catch.

the math was still right - I think in this scenario (40 feet is tiny, so that helps) - you get the ball out from the fence about 15.5 inches instead of the drawing (one club length which gives relief of a little less than half that of course around 4 inches....).

( the other point about just hitting it back out in the fairway is a good point and a real option, but not what I was looking at...I really did want the point about hitting it in any direction I want)

I think this is beat to death now. THANKS all

I'm still wondering if this is more a "man made obstruction" question now though (if it was a tree, we could just drop to the side and swing).

good thing straight walls tend to not be natural - (except in landscaping.....sigh)

10 foot radius? That's a 60" club. That's about right for a broomstick putter for Shaq, but unless you're 7' tall, I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. My driver has a 35" shaft, add maybe 4 more for the head, and you still come up under 40". Twice that is 78" or a 6½ foot radius, so the diagram isn't that far off.

Your driver has a 35" shaft? Are you sure? That's a standard putter length... I think you mean a 45" shaft.

**Fourputt** · August 20, 2013

Originally Posted by tristanhilton85

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by rehmwa

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop

Also, the scale seems a bit off given your numbers. The smaller circle should be 1/4 of the size of the larger circle, since you get 2x the club length *5 ft from your numbers* which is 10 ft radius. The larger circle has a 40 ft radius. Would make some difference in the outcome I'd think.

Yup - you are right. I should have a 10 foot radius, not a 10 foot diameter. the picture is wrong and only shows one club length

nice catch.

the math was still right - I think in this scenario (40 feet is tiny, so that helps) - you get the ball out from the fence about 15.5 inches instead of the drawing (one club length which gives relief of a little less than half that of course around 4 inches....).

( the other point about just hitting it back out in the fairway is a good point and a real option, but not what I was looking at...I really did want the point about hitting it in any direction I want)

I think this is beat to death now. THANKS all

I'm still wondering if this is more a "man made obstruction" question now though (if it was a tree, we could just drop to the side and swing).

good thing straight walls tend to not be natural - (except in landscaping.....sigh)

10 foot radius? That's a 60" club. That's about right for a broomstick putter for Shaq, but unless you're 7' tall, I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. My driver has a 35" shaft, add maybe 4 more for the head, and you still come up under 40". Twice that is 78" or a 6½ foot radius, so the diagram isn't that far off.

Your driver has a 35" shaft? Are you sure? That's a standard putter length... I think you mean a 45" shaft.

oops, my bad... 45"

So add 20 inches overall and it's still a long way from 10 feet

**rehmwa** · August 20, 2013

Originally Posted by Fourputt

10 foot radius? That's a 60" club. That's about right for a broomstick putter for Shaq, but unless you're 7' tall, I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. My driver has a 35" shaft, add maybe 4 more for the head, and you still come up under 40". Twice that is 78" or a 6½ foot radius, so the diagram isn't that far off.

I thought it was pretty obvious that I was being extremely generous with an impossibly long driver and a(n impossibly) short distance to the pin for this scenario by exaggerating - both of which 'add' to the relief, just to make the point that you don't get much relief at all due to the geometry of the thing - since the first person to comment on it was being a bit silly about it.

The point was, even with the generous putter and being REALLY close to the pin, I'd like to challenge someone to get realistic relief while trying to drop into a 15 inch sliver of grass next to a wall.....David got the point immediately. You did too.

I did throw in some more realistic numbers - several times - I'm sure you noticed. (60 feet from the pin, 45 inch driver ==> just a little bit over 6 inches from the fence if dropped perfectly).

But I agree, with more realistic numbers, (20 yards or more and 45 inch driver) the diagram starts to look like a typical situation for tanked out approach shot that rolls down the hill and comes up against a feature or a grandstand. (that's why I didn't catch my mistake with the comic book assumptions)

**MEfree** · August 22, 2013

Originally Posted by David in FL

But remember, you're doing that under penalty of one stroke. You're still likely to be much better off replaying from the tee.

Regardless though, the diagram demonstrates just how little help 2 club lengths gives you under that scenario.

Correct, and the other thing you need to remember is that the ball may roll up to 2 club lengths, no nearer the hole after you drop. This may help you get as much as 4 club lengths, but may also mean that you end up in exactly the same spot. Overall, roll out will likely hurt your chances of a successful drop. i.e. Let's say you end up with 12" of relief from the fence- if your ball rolls forward at all, you will have to re-drop. Same if it rolls out of bounds (unless it comes to rest first). But if it rolls back 10" towards the fence, you will have to play it 2" from the fence. Your best result is that it rolls parallel to the hole giving you some additional room.

dffjunior · August 26, 2013

You may not get much from an unplayable rule, but what about the fence itself? Is it considered an obstruction from which you would get relief? If so, there's no restriction on distance for relief:

(i)Through the Green: If the ball lies through the green, the player must lift the ball and drop it, without penalty, within one club-length of and not nearer the hole than the nearest point of relief .

Nearest Point of Relief

The “ nearest point of relief ” is the reference point for taking relief without penalty from interference by an immovable obstruction (Rule 24-2 ), an abnormal ground condition (Rule 25-1 ) or a wrong putting green (Rule 25-3 ).

It is the point on the course nearest to where the ball lies:

(i) that is not nearer the hole , and

(ii) where, if the ball were so positioned, no interference by the condition from which relief is sought would exist for the stroke the player would have made from the original position if the condition were not there.

I've seen guys go 40 yards to get relief from grandstands.

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