Tees moved back, adjust rating or no?

A course I play often had the blue tees moved back so far it played like a different course. I'm not exaggerating when I say it was as much as 20-25 yds on some holes. One par 3 was so far back we were hitting 4h when we usually hit 6i. I jotted the yardage down on the card just because I track driving stats and according to my GPS the course played nearly 400 yds longer than what's listed on the card. They don't put championship tees out but it's marked on the card. The course played within 160 yds of those tees. Usually I'd blow it off for subtle differences but the ratings difference is significant, blues are 70.2/129 and golds are 73.2/133. If they moved the tees back just 9 yds per hole we would have been playing from the championship tees. The differential difference between the tees is enough to worry about, IMO. What to do?

If it's being setup significantly longer than rated yardage, you can use adjustments per 5-2g of the USGA handicap manual.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-05/

In a perfect world there should be a balance of front, middle, and back tee markers so the net affect is a total yardage close to the rating yardage, which is determined from the middle of the tee box on every hole..

Thanks, I suppose the real question is what qualifies as significant.

There's nothing in the tables Dormie linked about a "significant" distance change being necessary before changing the rating and slope. Anything more than 11 yards (over the entire course, not one hole) does so.

I didn't see that in the manual but I could have missed it not like I poured through it. I have used the tables before in the winter when tees aren't out or when mowers left them on the side of the box.

Too late to post it from the back tees, already posted the score. That was why I questioned it and honestly I am bummed. From the back tees the differential would have been towards the lower end of my ten best. I suppose I could shoot the handicap committee guy an email explaining the dilemma.

I think Dormie's link refers to UNRATED tees.  I agree that it makes sense to adjust when the rated tees are positioned quite a bit different from where they were rated from, but 11 yards does not cut it for me.  I would think you would need to be off by at least 100 yards given the fact that sometimes they might move the tee up, but put the pin back or vice versa.

A side note- it looks like you would come up with 2 different ratings depending on whether Dave worked back from the blues or up from the Championship:

Blue + 390 yards= 72.0/133

Championship - 160 yards = 72.5/131

I'm sure he meant 11 yds average per hole. Honestly I don't sweat that in most cases it's not even a club difference. In this instance there was one par 3 where the blues were just 4 yards up from where the golds would be, they don't put those tees out. Blues on the card list 185 and gold at 210, my gps said 206. The cool thing was they had just moved them today, may have been a mower mistake. Anyway those boxes were pristine. Not a mark on them, they looked like greens.

The chart shows adjustments starting at 11 yards for the entire course, so I think that is what he meant.  I agree that unless it is closer to 11+ per hole (and all the same direction), its not worth worrying about.  The question is whether there is anything official as to when a player should adjust the CR/SR.  i.e. Players should only make adjustments to rated tees when the total course is more than 200 yards shorter or longer than the rated distance.

Again I must have missed it. Obviously I'm not overly concerned if I didn't take the time to read carefully through it. Slightly bummed that I posted my score before asking. The differential difference is 2.2 using the conservative adjustment. It only matters to me because as is it falls just outside my ten best. I'm heading out now to play the course again.

I've seen this happen at courses before because they had been playing significantly lower than rated yardage - you may want to see if the course had recently been re-rated or if someone auidited the distances.

I wouldnt sweat it too much - too many guys are in such a rush to lower their HC - i prefer to suck the 3 non tourney weeks a month personally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MEfree

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

There's nothing in the tables Dormie linked about a "significant" distance change being necessary before changing the rating and slope. Anything more than 11 yards (over the entire course, not one hole) does so.

I think Dormie's link refers to UNRATED tees.  I agree that it makes sense to adjust when the rated tees are positioned quite a bit different from where they were rated from, but 11 yards does not cut it for me.  I would think you would need to be off by at least 100 yards given the fact that sometimes they might move the tee up, but put the pin back or vice versa.

Agreed - but I interpreted the OP as saying the tees had all been moved but not yet given a new rating. Usually if some tees are moved back then others are moved forward and it all averages out - but since it sounded like *all* the tees were back I assumed they were reconfiguring the course somehow. I guess I'm unclear on the nature of the tee movement.

Yep, I assume that's why the tables specify adjusting from the closest set of rated tees (which would be the Championship in this case.)

From manual, may help determining how much the total rating would change.

The table is indeed for unrated tees, but could be used for other reasons.  For example,  a tournament setup on a particular day that takes into account current weather.   A couple of holes into the wind are played on a shorter tee box.  This happens at out club.

I believe the OP was talking about a number of tee markers at the back end of their respective tee boxes.  If there are not a similar number of tees played on the forward end of their boxes, the course is setup longer than rated.

I used the term significant because if you look at the table, a couple of tees played back is not going to make much of a difference in the rating/slope and consequently is not going to give you an out of line differential when you post your score.  As I said, the table is really for different tees that are not rated or tees not part of the normal rated setup, not a few tees played back or forward.

Unless you have at least a couple of hundred yard difference in course length vs. rated length, I wouldn't bother trying to adjust anything.  Your differential, which is computed from four elements, (Slope and Rating being  two of them), really isn't going to change that much.

Also, if the tees markers are on the correct tees, you just can't just adjust for back tees, you would have to also adjust for any tees forward to get a true rating.  In a perfect world, there is suppose to be a balance of forward, middle, and back tees on any given day.

And, if it's not a permanent change, it's a single round with the course set up a bit longer.  Happens all the time.  It's also worth noting, that adjusting the CR for that one round will be to your detriment as it will lower your differential a bit.  But again, not enough to make any real difference over a single round.....

This sounds reasonable to me...is it the official USGA policy or just your common sense?

Can't speak for the USGA, but I  think the handicap folks would tell you if you play rated tees, just post the score as is.  If you play a course where the tees are consistently placed mostly forward or back causing the course to play significantly different than it's rated yardage,  I'd mention it to the folks responsible for this.  If you're concerned that your score(s) are significantly affected by this, take a look at the chart if you want.  But remember, you have to compute the differences for all 18 tees.  I'm betting it really won't change your differential.

As mentioned, the chart is for playing different and/or unrated tees.  The USGA assumes the course is being setup correctly, an equal distribution of front, middle, and back tees.  I should mention this goes for flags as well.  Don't' forget, the course yardage is based on middle pins also.  As with tees, there should be a even distribution of front, middle, and back pin placements.

So, as you can see, there is a lot that has to be considered.  That's why I'd not worry about a few back tee placements.

BTW, anyone can call the USGA, and say you have a question concerning a handicaps.  They'll get you to a handicap person who can help out.